RichJ - Posted - 09/16/2025:  09:01:57

I’ve been playing this tune on the fiddle for a long time and recently started learning in on the banjo. In the process I got to wondering if there’s a Key change in this tune. It always seemed like it to me but in recently talking about this with a fiddler friend they said no.

The A and B parts of this tune are almost identical. The only difference on the fiddle is they get played on a different set of strings. When played in G both parts are fingered pretty much the same. The A part starts on open D and ends on G (3rd finger on D) – BTW normal ending for a G tune. Then the B part shifts over one string and starts on the open A string and ends on D (3rd finger on A) – now ending like a D tune.



So, what’s going on?

Edited by - RichJ on 09/16/2025 09:09:15

DougD - Posted - 09/16/2025:  10:26:54

I don't know this tune, but if this annotation is correct, both parts are in D.
tunearch.org/wiki/Annotation:G...tato_Vine

Dan Gellert - Posted - 09/16/2025:  10:29:16

No accidentals, it can be well accompanied with just the usual 3 chords, and it resolves on the tonic.

That means the second part is in the same key as the first.

Edited by - Dan Gellert on 09/16/2025 10:30:43

RichJ - Posted - 09/16/2025:  12:52:28

Notation of the tune in the link DougD posted above is certainly in the Key of D. Regardless of key it's not the way I've been playing it. Here's another version, also in D Grasshopper... Fox & Branch   which comes closer. BTW - Notice both A and B parts end on D.

But, as I said above, I've been playing it in the key of G and the A and B parts end on a different notes. So, without getting into a bickering session on  "correct" ways to play an OT tune I'm curious to know if playing this tune in the key of G and as described in my OP makes any difference?

Dan Gellert - Posted - 09/16/2025:  15:42:23

If the G version doesn't end both parts on a G note, it isn't the same tune.

DougD - Posted - 09/16/2025:  17:18:46

Richj - This seems to be one of those tunes with just a single source, in this case Luther Davis, and he played it in D. The version you linked is pretty close to how he played it, and is also in D. Personally I'd learn it in D, but if you want to play it in G that's up to you. But as Dan said, both parts need to end on G. Its a little confusing in that the B part starts on the V chord (D or D7 in G) and then slides down to the IV.
I don't use the Traditional Tune Archive much, but here's another llnk with a second notation. Neither are really great, but it might be closer.
tunearch.org/wiki/Grasshopper_...tato_Vine

RichJ - Posted - 09/17/2025:  06:57:51

Doug - Thanks for TTA link with the reminder of Slippery Hill and a chance to listen to Luther Davis play the tune himself. In the years of playing this tune, mostly for myself I slipped into morphing it, or perhap more correctly said, mutilating it into something else. Had I stuck to playing the tune in a more original way I doubt I would have posed my original question. By screwing it up in playing it the way I was the B part is in a different key, but of course it's no longer the same tune.

ChickenMan - Posted - 09/17/2025:  21:45:28

It is in D but the fine part starts on an A chord, likely leading you to think there's a key change. It's like "Rock the Cradle Joe" which follows that same "second part starts on the 5 chord" pattern.

DougD - Posted - 09/18/2025:  10:29:23

Richj - To be fair, I think that song/tune was pretty well "mutilated" by the time it got to you! Maybe by Luther Davis, or maybe some other time in the last 160 years or so. It's tempting to think someone just misheard or forgot the B part, but maybe somebody just thought it needed a little more variety and came up with the idea and thought it was "kewl." Didn't seem to be widely popular though.
I think it was Tommy Jarrell who asked someone to play a tune, and when they were done asked what it was. When they told him he said "I thought that's what you were TRYING to play." So here's what Mr. Davis was "trying" to play: youtu.be/pfb6EXQrLu8?feature=shared
If you're curious, there's lots more about it at this underappreciated website:
bluegrassmessengers.com/pass-a...1926.aspx
This is not a very useful number for me. To sing the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" lyrics around here could be divisive, and no one wants to hear "Glory, glory to old Georgia" after last Saturday's disappointing footbal game!

RichJ - Posted - 09/18/2025:  13:04:55

Thanks for the additional links Doug. I guess folks have been mutilating this melody for a long time. It's odd I never noticed the similarity to "Battle Hymm" until someone, perhaps here on FHO, mentioned it several years ago. There's little doubt GOASPV was another attempt to parody the Yankee marching song. I never heard the Skillet Licker's version until today. After listening I'll have to say it sounds a lot more like "Battle Hymn" than the Grasshopper version.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/22/2025:  05:18:31

We can look at chord progressions and notes on ending phrases and stuff like that and start to question what key we're in or where we've been before, etc. But tossing any music theory aside for a minute, really, at least in my opinion, when a tune does actually change keys, it's a shock to the ear...it's like a little wake up alarm in your brain. At that point you don't need music theory, you just know. The only OT example of that that I can think off the top of my head would be Forky Deer. You're sittin' there all settled in to the feel of the A part, but then once the D part starts it's sort of a shock...you're like...WHAT? But as the B part closes out it finds its way back to the original key. You can just hear that...it's sort of shocking and odd. If I don't hear that in a tune, I'm not gonna think that it switched keys. Not saying it would be impossible, but I can't think of any key change that wouldn't be a very noticeable thing. Still on my first cup of coffee though, so basically I cannot think at all right now.

DougD - Posted - 09/22/2025:  06:10:51

Peggy, I just reread your post, and maybe we're really saying the same thing. ""Forky Deer" doesn't really change keys - it just goes to the V chord to begin the B part. "Yankee Doodle" does a similar thing except it goes to the IV chord.
Tunes that actually change keys include "Flop Eared Mule," "Richmond Cotillion," and "Flying Couds." Also ""Muddy Roads."
Richj - dont't forget "Sitting." The title (one of several just taken from a line of the sung lyrics) is "Grasshopper SITTING on a Sweet Potato Vine." That line is also sometimes sung to "Soldier's Joy," which is what I thought this thread was going to be about.

Edited by - DougD on 09/22/2025 06:12:14