Memphis Soul - Posted - 09/07/2025:  19:49:27

Explain to me the difference between these two genres. I am a long time guitarist and am familiar with bluegrass but not old time as I read about it on here? Who are some good fiddlers in the old time genre to listen to? I have Spotify and can listen to them if they are on there. I have just bought my first violin/fiddle and want to learn bluegrass but am intrigued by what I read on here about old time fiddling. I have a teacher picked out and hopefully she has openings but she is a fiddle player in a country band and has toured with a Grammy nominated bluegrass band. But I’d like to learn more about the old time fiddling.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 09/07/2025:  22:31:31

I'll probably get a bit of heat here, but to me Old Time Fiddling is an attempt to play exactly how fiddlers fiddled in the 19th Century American South, particularly in Appalachia but also in places like Mississippi. It doesn't hurt that more than a few recordings exist of fiddlers who played in the style so, yes, you can get reasonably close to the real thing. I took several years of 0.T. lessons from L.A. O.T. Guru David Bragger, and me and several Bragger-ites would get together several times a week to play. I'd probably still be attending those jams if I still lived in So Cal.

DougD - Posted - 09/08/2025:  01:49:47

I'm not going to attempt a definition, partly because for every distinction there's an exception. You don't need Spotify - there's plenty available to hear on YouTube.
Here's a page with a pretty a pretty good brief history and definition, and some examples for further listening: balladofamerica.org/old-time/

farmerjones - Posted - 09/08/2025:  05:45:43

Bruce Molsky, Bavid Bragger, and the late Cyril Stinnett are good examples of Old Time. I'll stick my neck out: O.T. is /was supposed to be for Dancing.



As far as Bluegrass, living example is Micheal Cleveland. Best example passed is Kenny Baker.



Sure, all this stuff is opinion and highly arguable. This is an online forum. Someone is always wrong. I got gobs more opinion. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 09/08/2025:  05:51:31

Old Time is a style of music that harkens back to the early days of American fiddling, when the tunes of the Scots, Irish, and English that were brought over by colonial settlers were blended with a West African influence and then taken into the Appalachian hills and preserved for about a century. In the 1920s and 1930s several bands formed and made recordings for the rest of the country, which had by then forgotten about the style. These recordings were made a the time of vaudeville and they had both the “old-timey” nostalgic sensibility that remembered an older style and a sort of showmanship that made the antics of the performers entertaining to audiences. Those recordings formed the basis of what became known as Old Time music. With the folk revival in the 1960s, people of the Hippie generation eventually took an interest in old fiddle music and there was a partial revival of the genre. Like all revivals, the music that was played in the 60s and 70s wasn’t exactly like the music that inspired the revival (just as you could likely argue that the original recordings didn’t perfectly represent the music being played in the Appalachian mountains in the 1800s), but it became popular among a small niche of players who have kept it going ever since. The style has morphed over the last 50 years, and younger players today are taking it in yet another direction. If you’re looking for Old Time examples, you end up having to pick a time period, because if you play like a member of the Skillet Lickers, you won’t fit in with the aging Hippies or with the young players.

Original Old Time:
The Skillet Lickers
The Hill Billies
Eck Robertson

Revival Era:
David Bragger
The Highwoods
Foghorn Trio

Current Style:
Rachel Eddy
Roger Netherton
Tatiana Hargreaves
Jake Blount

Bluegrass is the genre that was born following the popularity of the original Old Time recordings. A lot of players were playing the tunes but wanted to find a style that was faster and put the instruments into the forefront instead of making them an equal part of a stage show. A lot of the original bluegrass tunes were simply Old Time fiddle tunes sped up and embellished. Whereas the original setting had been dance music, the bluegrass players followed the jazz format, where a melody would be played by the band, with the constituent players taking turns playing “breaks” where they each got the chance to show their skills while the other members switched to a supporting role. This came to being in the 1940s, and unlike Old Time, remained in regular use thereafter. As the folk revival took place, it had an effect on bluegrass and brought it into the mainstream more, with players taking it into some new directions. In the late 70s and 80s a newer store became known as “newgrass,” which was a blend of traditional bluegrass with New Age music and jazz. Today there are players of bluegrass that specialize in the various subcategories. As “country” music has changed over the years, a sort of bluegrass playing has accompanied it, moving more into the direction of Rock.

Traditional Bluegrass:
Bill Monroe
Kenny Baker
Johnny Gimble
Vassar Clements

Transitional:
Johnny Gimble
Vassar Clements

Newgrass:
David Grisman
Mark O’Connor
Bela Fleck
Sam Bush

Modern:
Mark O’Connor
Michael Cleveland
Alison Krauss
Charlie Daniels
Brittany Haas

Memphis Soul - Posted - 09/08/2025:  09:27:08

Thanks for the replies and clarification and also the suggestions. I am listening to the Skillet Lickers at the moment that The Violin Beautiful suggested for original old time. Can definitely hear the difference between this and bluegrass. Spotify has artist you would never think they would. They even have obscure and unknown artist. I like it better than trying to listen to music on YouTube.

DougD - Posted - 09/08/2025:  10:16:05

The balladofamerica site I linked to has playlists for both YouTube and Spotify. The advantage of YouTube is that people upload often rare and obscure stuff of many kinds. Farmerjones mentioned Cyril Stinnett, and there are (kind of wavery) videos of him playing on YouTube that I doubt you'll find anywhere else.
Another site for video is folkstreams, which features documentary films about may aspects of American folk arts.
folkstreams.net/
You can find John Cohen's classic films about old time music "The High Lonesome Sound" and "The End of an Old Song," as well as films about Bill Monroe, and many more ("The Ralph Stanley Story" is available on YouTube. Since my old band, The Highwoods Stringband has been mentioned, there's also a film "Dance All Night," for a glimpse at the more modern "Old Time revival."

wrench13 - Posted - 09/08/2025:  11:20:00

Old Time and Bluegrass. Those are some mighty big buckets. And each is filled with myriad different interpretations, regional styles and whole genre'. As has been said, Old Time is generally dance music (but lots of tunes have words) and is played ensemble style. Bluegrass generally is songs with words and individual breaks. But each of the above have many exceptions to that. Maybe its easier to define the two by not fiddle but banjo! Old time has banjo played in any number of frailing styles, and bluegrass has banjo played with finger picks. Some exceptions there too, but that is a more general rule of thumb. Tons of fiddle tunes show up in both buckets!

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 09/08/2025:  17:14:14

No matter how polished the performers or performances might be, OT music has a timeless...perhaps even primitive appeal...that can give it a lot of emotional sock. Bluegrass emotionally takes me back to the Fifties and Sixties. Old Time emotionally takes me back to the 19th Century and before.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 09/09/2025:  05:15:23

I just posted a video in the media section of a collab of old time and bluegrass musicians.

it's excellent in my opinion.

the collab works because the bluegrassers in the video understand how to play old time music, and are playing it with the old time musicians... not the other way around.

which is interesting to me because it's possible to be a terrific bluegrass musician but have little understanding of how to play old time music.

i notice something similar in jazz. some jazz guys know the blues, some don't care about the blues much. sometimes the genres merge successfully and other times not

screecher - Posted - 09/09/2025:  08:39:33

What is Old-Time Music?

By Mike Seeger

(Originally printed in the May 1997 issue of Bluegrass Unlimited)
I travel by air quite a bit and as I put my fiddle in the overhead luggage bin someone often asks what kind of music I play. Sometimes I've answered "old- time music" but soon learned that means little to the general public, as it could mean any kind of music that occurred before the time of our conversation. Sometimes I try "old-time country" and they might say "oh, like Hank Williams?" or even Merle Haggard. "No," I say, "it's acoustic and more backwoods than that." Then sometimes (if they're really knowledgeable) they'll say, "oh, is it bluegrass?" I wish old-time music had such a nice handle.

I'm gradually learning to abandon short labels and take a minute to describe the place and time that this music existed in and now exists in, because musical consciousness is so layered and limited by contemporary format radio and TV that most Americans' view of music is pretty narrow.

Old-time music was the old-time name for real mountain-type folk music. Old-time music is the main foundation for bluegrass music. It is the kind of music that Bill Monroe, Earl Scruggs, the Stanley Brothers and in fact most rural people prior to the mid nineteen twenties, were raised with. It is the old unaccompanied English ballads like Barbara Allen, new American songs like Wild Bill Jones, old fiddle tunes like Devil's Dream, and newer banjo tunes like Cumberland Gap. It's a rich and varied heritage of music - as rich as the roots music of any country. It was played throughout rural America but was extra strong and distinctive in the Southeast, especially in the mountains. It is sung and played on a variety of acoustic instruments including the guitar and mandolin which were newcomers to it in the early twentieth century. It used to be played by African Americans as well as Anglo, French & Scotch- Irish, etc Americans. It nearly died out in mid-century but has found new life and is being played, mostly informally, by people all over the country.

Before we had radio and phonographs, folks used the music to entertain themselves; a lot more people played music in those days, before you could push a button and rely on others to make it for you. In the pre-electronic days you always had to make your own music or be real near to some one who was making the music, to hear it when it was actually being made. There wasn't a music market and not much money around, so except for a few minstrel shows and occasional schoolhouse and medicine shows even exceptional musicians gained only local, informal popularity and retained their "day jobs" in agriculture or small-town mills. The music from these earlier, old times endured through the generations because of its rich and varied sounds and lyrics and because it filled the needs of the people, who, after all, created it for themselves.

Now that we have radio, TV, CDs, and so much electrical gadgetry this music might seem old-fashioned. Or in other words, enduring and timeless. Sometimes in interviews I'm asked, "Why do you play old-time music?" I suppose they ask that because it's old and, by implication and also in reality, non-commercial. I suspect that many of us play this older style music for some of the same reasons that most bluegrass musicians play bluegrass, because we like it and it fits us. We can think of all kinds of reasons such as "I was raised with it," "I like its sound," "I like to be able to play the music myself or with friends without plugging in," and I can add "it's timeless, meaningful and I value its continuity with the past." All of those and more fit me. I can talk on and on about reasons for liking old-time and bluegrass music but really it all boils down to "it just suits me."

These days, as in the old days, old-time music can be heard in people's homes for the most part; in public the main place is at fiddler's contests, such as Mt. Airy (NC) or Clifftop (WV), on or off stage, where a couple of thousand people, many of them musicians, will gather. At such an event, there are upwards of 100 old-time bands competing. Old-time music is also occasionally present as part of community events, music festivals, at occasional concerts and in the schools.

There are probably a few thousand people playing this music now. Whereas old-time music used to be played by rural and small-town people, mostly involved in agriculture, and sometimes in the mines and mills, it is now played by people who have a common urban-based experience. Now occupations can include carpentry, computer programming, law practice, car-washing, education and so forth. Probably five and no more than ten musicians make their full-time living playing old-time music, depending on your definitions of "old-time" and "a living."

At present few bluegrass events feature old-time music despite its obvious connection to bluegrass, its musical value and ability to communicate. Some bluegrass artists are including old-time sounds and tunes in their repertoire, for instance, the Dry Branch Fire Squad, Nashville Bluegrass Band, Tony Trischka, Bill Evans and Tim O'Brien and the O'Boys.

As in bluegrass and in any constantly used and evolving art form there is some controversy as to what old-time music really is. To some it's only string band music of a certain type, to some folklorists working in the public sector it should only be made by persons born in the South, to some it's only the music of the late twenties and early thirties. Since there are so many kinds of music and it is so important to be able to communicate in this complex world, some such definitions are helpful. In the following list this description will be my guide: rural-style music of late 19th and early 20th century America and its closest descendants.

It's only possible to communicate about music if you can hear the music, so I've compiled two lists of ten CDs each that would give the bluegrass listener a good introduction to the sounds of old-time music. The first list is of contemporary musicians, the second is of re-releases of older traditional musicians and singers, most of whom are deceased. Unfortunately some of the best recordings of old-time music are on out-of-print LPs, but all of the following are available on CD. This is my personal selection and certainly important musicians have to be left off of such a short list.

I believe that anyone interested in bluegrass would enjoy having at least a few recordings of its parent music, old-time. In case you can only afford a few, the first several in each list are a good place to start.

DougD - Posted - 09/09/2025:  11:42:24

screecher - I think I've seen that piece before, but its still interesting. The words are a little vague though - can you post the two lists that Mike compiled to illustrate what he meant?

DougD - Posted - 09/09/2025:  12:27:24

Shawn - Enjoyed that video, but its not really surprising. Although this topic may make for interesting discussion, around here the distinction between "old time" and Bluegrass is much more blurred and I doubt anyone really cares. When Bluegrass became popular in the 1950's, many people who already played forms of "old time" music modifed their playing somewhat to adapt to the new style. Ralph Stanley had learned clawhammer banjo, I think from his mother, and learned three-finger when he heard Earl Scruggs. Lee Sexton could play tunes like "Shuckin' the Corn" in his drop thumb banjo style. Jesse McReynolds' grandfather recorded at the Bristol sessions with the "Bull Mountain Moonshiners" and I did sound for him once, after Jim's death, and he played a couple old time tunes on his grandfather's fiddle. Kenny Baker's father and uncle both played fiddle, and he brought a lot of "old time" feel to the Bluegrass Boys, especially compared to Chubby Wise for example. From your video, Sammy Shelor is a member of the Shelor Family, who recorded several classics in Bristol: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelor_Family
Even in my experience, the Highwoods Stringband originated in two trios with one common member, Walt Koken. When he, Jenny Cleland and I began playing together Walt played fiddle, Jenny bass, and I played both guitar and banjo. With the bass, my D-28 guitar and Mastertone banjo (even with the resonator removed) this group had a little bigger sound than the earlier trio with a parlor guitar that had a more sedate sound. Walt also could play Scruggs style banjo and we'd listened to a lot of Flatt and Scruggs and Bill Monroe, and we found that we could include a few Bluegrass numbers with banjo, bass, and mandolin. The bass kept a strong beat going, and Walt and I could trade leads while the other played rhythm, and then both play rhythm behind the vocals. A little unusual, but it worked.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/09/2025:  12:59:56

Old Time is the grandparent of Bluegrass. Bluegrass is the smarty-pants teenager, Old time is the serious ol' granny/pappy with a lot of life experience as their driving force. What's in the middle? There was a bridge tween the two the led from one to the other, sort of the transition from pouring coffee from a small cup to drink from a saucer...then ditching the saucer for the cup as a transition...then big fancy mugs to hold fancy coffee with all sorts of goodies swirling around in there. That's it, really...it's like grandparents vs new generation, coffee vs latte.  It's the same music, the same idea, but wearing reading glasses and a cane, sipping strong, black coffee from a saucer...or else having tattoos galore and drinking big fancy mugs of latte with chocolate shavings.  These illustrate the music only, not necessarily the people.  Anyone fitting either description is purely coincidental.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 09/09/2025 13:03:53

DougD - Posted - 09/09/2025:  15:35:32

screecher - I found the article and a link to the lists on (I guess) Mike's website. Thanks for posting the article here.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 09/09/2025:  18:01:22

"around here the distinction between "old time" and Bluegrass is much more blurred and I doubt anyone really cares. "

That's the way it was/is where I grew up as well. My cousins play bluegrass that's kind of like that video.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 09/10/2025:  07:23:18

I went to an all-day jam on Labor Day in Baltimore in a backyard. It was deliberately set up so that players could form their own jams in different spots around the yard, and that’s exactly how it went. Earlier in the day there were two Old Time jams going on and those who weren’t playing in them were standing around either listening to the Old Time players or waiting for other players to show up who played what they wanted to play. A small bluegrass jam started a little while later, and then two or three more smaller jams started. One of the Old Time jams petered out and then turned into a very pleasant Celtic session while the second one slowly shrank until it was just two players. It was a wonderful afternoon, and I quite enjoyed bouncing back and forth between the Celtic and Old Time spots.

One thing that stood out to me (as it usually does) was that, while everyone was very friendly and welcoming, there was a clear division by age in the groups. There were two or three younger players who came to the Old Time jams, but they were mostly killing time as they waited for other jams to start, and the majority were more interested in Bluegrass or “folk.” At one point a hipster group played some Old Crow Medicine Show selections. While there were a few young players who wandered around and visited different jams, the older Old Time crowd stayed to itself, and whenever players stopped playing, they either went to the tables for food or just went home early so they didn’t have to drive in the dark.

This isn’t intended as a criticism of anyone—it was a great event and I think everyone genuinely had a good time. My point is just that, at least around the DMV and the Baltimore Old Time scene, Old Time and Bluegrass tend to be pretty clearly demarcated,
and the choice of genre seems to be closely tied to age for most players.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 09/10/2025:  13:51:11

Rich... Wish I coulda' been there!

Quincy - Posted - 09/11/2025:  12:10:19

With the risk of sounding completely weird as an outsider from abroad, trying to observe fiddle music in general for years and later on - more specific- old time music, I'd say old time is the pure art of heart and soul intertwined , while bluegrass appears to me as some form of high- tech old time, in a similar way as I consider the german language as some form of high-tech dutch.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 09/11/2025:  13:55:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quincy

With the risk of sounding completely weird as an outsider from abroad, trying to observe fiddle music in general for years and later on - more specific- old time music, I'd say old time is the pure art of heart and soul intertwined , while bluegrass appears to me as some form of high- tech old time, in a similar way as I consider the german language as some form of high-tech dutch.

---

I get what you're saying!  Bluegrass may be fun as heck but I'd call OT more folksy and charming. It's like the difference between a horse-and-buggy and a Chevrolet. 

GeorgeH - Posted - 09/11/2025:  14:51:48

Bluegrass players jam standing up. Old Timey players jam sitting down. :-)

Memphis Soul - Posted - 09/12/2025:  00:17:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by GeorgeH

Bluegrass players jam standing up. Old Timey players jam sitting down. :-)

---

Then old time is for me as I have a bad back and play all my instruments sitting down.

screecher - Posted - 09/12/2025:  06:44:01

Most of the bluegrass jams I go to are sitting if there are chairs. I'm not a fan of unnecessary standing.

Most of the modern old-time jam scene is instrumental, so if you're interested in playing fiddle the whole time it might be something to get into. In bluegrass there are long stretches where you might want "lay out" as a fiddler, banjo player, etc. Depending on the scene you might play old-time in non-standard tunings most of the time.

The old-time jammers I would say have more formal education generally. I would guess 90-95% have a bachelor's degree. Bluegrass would probably be a 50/50 split. I would say the great majority of rural southerners who play acoustic music play bluegrass rather than old-time, but do play some old-time tunes and old-time songs. I think I remember reading that Tommy Jarrell's kids played bluegrass.

The "old-time is dance music" idea is just ahistorical if we're talking about the kind of music that early 20th century and earlier people actually played and listened to. It's like the myth that refuses to die.

wrench13 - Posted - 09/12/2025:  07:18:50

Old time - you will get more than your share of stink-eye if you play variations of the tune. Bluegrass - its expected that breaks will show some individual creativity and variation.

I've never found either, as a group, to be exceptionally educated. I know players who are cardiologists and some who couldn't decipher instructions for a can opener.

ChickenMan - Posted - 09/12/2025:  10:58:00

Funny, when I get together with my bluegrass friends and they are mostly band mates, we play standing and likely don't sit at all from the minute we walk in. If it is a mix of bluegrass and Norman Blake type pickers (so many great guitar players in my circle) we tend to sit and rarely play anything at a blazing speed.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 09/12/2025:  18:26:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by screecher

The "old-time is dance music" idea is just ahistorical if we're talking about the kind of music that early 20th century and earlier people actually played and listened to. It's like the myth that refuses to die.

---

This doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you could explain what you mean further. 

 

The music that was played in country dances in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (not the popular music that was played in larger cities and in concert halls) was predominantly a continuation of the fiddle music that was played in the early to mid-19th century, music that was played in dances routinely. The tunes were often modified versions of tunes that had been around at the time of the Civil War or even the Revolutionary War. Many were tunes brought over from Europe by settlers or even tunes composed for playing in Colonial America. As enslaved black people were exposed to the colonial music, they absorbed it and began to play it with their own personal interpretation in their own dances. In time, their renditions became so popular with the gentry that enslaved fiddlers were often brought in to play dances and white players began to pick up their style of playing. During a lecture at a VSA convention some years ago, this subject was discussed, and a painting of the early to mid-1800s was shown which depicted a scene of a country dance with a black fiddler providing the music.

Lists of tunes that were played by Civil War soldiers have been compiled, many of them dance tunes. The popular music of the time was more along the lines of Stephen Foster tunes, but even then the Virginia Reel was still a common dance for parties in the South, and the fiddle repertoire used was necessarily dance music. These tunes were the precursor of Old Time music. The early Old Time recordings featured many dance tunes. I have said before that I think the stage act is a big part of the identity of the original Old Time music, but the connection to the barndance was still integral.

In the early 20th century Vernon Dalhart, a classically trained opera singer, took a great interest in bringing rural lyrical tunes to the attention of the public and awakened an interest in the music of the rural South that would set the stage for the country and Old Time recordings that came later and the discovery of other legends like Jimmie Rodgers and the Carter Family. Although the songs often were more in the form of ballads, the connection to dance music remained, and the recordings made by bands like the Hill Billies and the Skillet Lickers were firmly rooted in  dance. Many of the players who inspired the players of the revival in Old Time were themselves fiddlers for dances and had childhood memories of dances they'd attended in the early part of the 20th century. 

screecher - Posted - 09/12/2025:  19:07:13

I didn't mean that old-time music didn't include dance music, but that dance tunes don't compose the entirety of old-time music. It doesn't include the songs, ballads, that people in the era actually listened to and played. Listen to the Skillet Lickers; a large number of the recordings have vocals. Same with Tommy Jarrell and Fiddlin' John Carson. The idea that old time = fiddle tunes is a latter-day construct. Was the Fuzzy Mountain first album the first old-time album without vocal numbers (1972?). What were the New Lost City Ramblers if not a revivalist old-time group? And their recordings were 95% vocal numbers. There was a lot of old-time music that was not intended for dancing.

Edited by - screecher on 09/12/2025 19:11:56

ChickenMan - Posted - 09/13/2025:  10:59:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by screecher

I didn't mean that old-time music didn't include dance music, but that dance tunes don't compose the entirety of old-time music. It doesn't include the songs, ballads, that people in the era actually listened to and played. Listen to the Skillet Lickers; a large number of the recordings have vocals. Same with Tommy Jarrell and Fiddlin' John Carson. The idea that old time = fiddle tunes is a latter-day construct. Was the Fuzzy Mountain first album the first old-time album without vocal numbers (1972?). What were the New Lost City Ramblers if not a revivalist old-time group? And their recordings were 95% vocal numbers. There was a lot of old-time music that was not intended for dancing.

---

That is a different kind of old time, sort of. We are on a fiddle site and I'm sure the statement about dance music was in relation to tunes, not songs. You could potentially call all music made before, let's say 1935, old time, but that wouldn't be useful. It is ultimately a term created to describe a particular flavor, I think Henry Ford used that term when he was sponsoring fiddle contests in the twenties, might have added a "Y" as in old timey.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 09/13/2025:  12:12:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by screecher

I didn't mean that old-time music didn't include dance music, but that dance tunes don't compose the entirety of old-time music. It doesn't include the songs, ballads, that people in the era actually listened to and played. Listen to the Skillet Lickers; a large number of the recordings have vocals. Same with Tommy Jarrell and Fiddlin' John Carson. The idea that old time = fiddle tunes is a latter-day construct. Was the Fuzzy Mountain first album the first old-time album without vocal numbers (1972?). What were the New Lost City Ramblers if not a revivalist old-time group? And their recordings were 95% vocal numbers. There was a lot of old-time music that was not intended for dancing.

---

Are you saying that songs aren't intended for dancing? I would agree that there are a lot of Old Time songs, but I would consider many of them dance tunes as well. Ballads are not intended for dancing, but they are also not a defining part of Old Time, more a part incorporated from other genres (especially Celtic). Ballad singing was often treated as a separate discipline, and I think it was used as a way to spell the players at times and for smaller settings like home porches or in other activities like quilting bees. In competitions it has often been given its own category, separate from band performances and fiddling. To me, ballads fit into the umbrella of "Mountain Music" and they intersect with Old Time, just as you could argue that there are a number of Blues tunes that show up on Old Time recordings.

I wouldn't define Old Time as fiddle music, either, despite tying it into dancing. I think of it more as a style and method of performing for an audience. As I see it, the music on an Old Time recording is a representation of what I'd expect to hear if I attended a barndance. Not every piece performed at a dance need be a dance number--sometimes the dancers appreciate having a break for libations, chatting, and cooling off. Ballads can act like palate cleansers after a lot of high-energy tunes. Programming (musical) is sadly becoming more and more of a lost art.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 09/13/2025:  13:52:57

Thanks Violin Beautiful for your perspectives on music, history and the folk culture we at this website hold dear!

screecher - Posted - 09/14/2025:  06:49:02

I've never understood how a genre that is commonly viewed as consisting of primarily instrumental dance tunes (old time) can give birth to a genre that is 95% vocal songs (bluegrass). If bluegrass derives from old time we would, I think, need to expand our definition of what old time music was/is. Would the repertoire of the NLCR or the Iron Mountain String Band be welcome in a modern old-time jam?

Dan Gellert - Posted - 09/14/2025:  08:43:09

I gave up trying to make the distinction a very long time ago, when I figured out that everybody (except folklorists, and wannabe geeks like myself) called anything that sounded country but didn't include electric guitars, horns, or drums "bluegrass".

ChickenMan - Posted - 09/14/2025:  12:22:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by screecher

I've never understood how a genre that is commonly viewed as consisting of primarily instrumental dance tunes (old time) can give birth to a genre that is 95% vocal songs (bluegrass). If bluegrass derives from old time we would, I think, need to expand our definition of what old time music was/is. Would the repertoire of the NLCR or the Iron Mountain String Band be welcome in a modern old-time jam?

---

For what is worth, there is singing at nearly every old time jam I play in, and not just a short phrase attached to an A or B part, but full on songs. But that only happens when there's someone who knows a song to sing. Like every jam at Clifftop (for me) has a few songs, some more than others. I'd venture to say the repertoire of those bands and Highwoods are often the source for my Clifftop friends (most of them are friends with Walt Koken from Highwoods).