wrench13 - Posted - 08/11/2025:  06:20:34

We played a festival this weekend, Sat and Sun. Because I got stuck watching the stage and doing sound, had to sit through 2 sets of a band with yet another violinist masquerading as a fiddler. Clearly this person was a talented and trained violinist. But every break, fill and ornament was a lift from identifiable classical pieces or based on them. No attempt to sound 'fiddley' of any style or genre'. Don't get me wrong, this violinist had great tone, good intonation, etc. But if I want to hear bits of The Saber Dance, JS Bach, Paganini, Shostakovich dissonance or other classical pieces, I will go to a concert for that music. I felt it was kind of insulting to those who spend 100's of hours to sound like a fiddler.

farmerjones - Posted - 08/11/2025:  10:32:42

And as far as shuffle?

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 08/11/2025:  10:36:07

I see a few perspectives on this:

1. If the crowd was enjoying the performer and the playing was good, with good tone and technique, what harm was done? Perhaps I’m alone in this opinion, but I’d much rather hear a player play well with a rich tone and a sense of musicality but not an “authentic” feel for regional style than listen to a mediocre player scratch out a tune feebly and without any musical understanding but an “authentic” style. Nathan Milstein recorded the Bach Solo Sonatas and Partitas well before HIP was developed. Now players are often using baroque bows or looking for a historical perspective. But to discount Milstein, generally considered a consummate Bach interpreter, as “inauthentic,” is laughable.

2. It’s understandable to be perturbed by a player who shows no understanding of the material. If the playing lacks musicality, it’s just not good playing, even if the fingers and bow strokes are properly placed. Bach famously quipped that “playing any musical instrument is easy. All you have to do is put your fingers on the right keys at the right time.” Given the complexity of his composition and its enduring reputation as the greatest music ever written, I think we can safely say the comment was in jest. So good intonation isn’t what makes a player good—it’s a prerequisite, not the definition. Anyone who plays out of tune too much is a poor player. The description of the player is unclear to me in that respect. Does a “good player” here mean one that plays musically, or just one who plays in tune? I often hear people use skill as the dividing line between fiddlers and classical players, but I would argue that there’s more to it. I’m thinking about this especially in relation to the collaboration between Yehudi Menuhin and Ravi Shankar. The recordings they made were heralded as a groundbreaking adventure into the world of Eastern music for Western players at the time, but many have since opined that while Shankar’s playing was masterful, Menuhin was unable to really grasp the music he was playing. In that sense one could argue that a good player was failing to make good music, although I would point out two important considerations: a) Menuhin was a ghost of his former self at this point already and b) in spite of the criticism the recordings received, they inspired a whole movement of collaboration between styles. Years later it was treated as a new groundbreaking success when Mark O’Connor collaborated with Edgar Meyer and Yo Yo Ma, but this was really a project in the same vein. There have been many others. Whether or not one likes the recordings personally, it’s pretty difficult to argue with their impact.

3. What was the intention of the player and what was the expectation of the audience? If the player was billed as a fiddler, not specifically an old time one, I’m not sure it makes sense to hold the player to a narrow set of standards that define one genre but not others. If the audience was looking for entertainment and got it, the expectations were met. How many people even know what old time is? We don’t seem to be able to define it even here! The references to classical literature may have been very intentional. That kind of thing is quite popular and has been a common feature in other genres like jazz, country, rock, metal, pop, funk, etc. for decades. Ever since Chris Thile recorded some Bach on his mandolin, it’s become commonplace for young musicians to play little snippets of Bach to earn respect among audiences and peers. A recording of a metal guitarist playing a movement from Vivaldi’s Four Seasons went viral back in the early 2000s and started a lasting trend toward identifying “metal” in classical compositions. It’s ironic that players of other styles were enthusiastically welcomed into the classical style, which is often unfairly characterized as stuffy and elitist, while players of classical tradition are reviled as though they’re killing the music if they show any interest in playing other styles. We don’t know the player’s motivations here, so we can’t tell what he intended. Many of the fiddlers I see these days are less interested in playing in one style and they avoid being identified in one specific discipline. Perhaps the fiddler was suggesting he was a real Old Time player and presenting his playing as such, but we don’t know.

It always strikes me that a lot of great fiddlers, when interviewed, spoke of drawing from other genres for musical ideas. Are players only encouraged to listen to other music but not dare play it for anyone?

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 08/11/2025:  13:01:51

I'm sure I've posted this ad infinitum, but I never fail to get a kick out of people who demand that a particular tune or genre be played in a particular way. Putting it another way, if a player is just sawing through a tune and is unable to convey whatever emotion might exist within it, it's a stone bore. True, historical accuracy may be an important component but, again, I quote the late, marvelous classical deejay Jim Sveda, who said that it isn't important whether the style is authentic, but whether the musician is authentic.

ChickenMan - Posted - 08/11/2025:  15:47:21

I'd rephrase that and say the music needs to be authentic regardless of the style, and it does not seem like that was the case cited above. A musician might be as authentic and earnest as they want to be and still not put out something that is authentic, like how the example played snippets of known pieces out of context. I like a good quote once in a while, but if that's all they're doing, forgetaboutit.

Edited by - ChickenMan on 08/11/2025 15:48:17

farmerjones - Posted - 08/11/2025:  17:08:56

Y'know, it isn't a big deal, but it is. Oh and BTW, I've seen Izzac Perlman and Pincus Z horsing around and they can shuffle with the best of them.
The dude in question, I don't know, but the other night this kid was a sideman for a Nashville hopeful. The kid couldn't or wouldn't shuffle.
Nope. I'm going to stick my neck out: A fiddler should know how to shuffle.

wrench13 - Posted - 08/11/2025:  18:32:02

So,
I dont like hearing scratchy, off pitch fiddlers any more then the next person and if it came to the choice in this instance, me, I'da got almost anything different.

Authentic - maybe thats the word. There was zero authenticity, no attempt at it at all. As far as audience enjoyment, actually the audience consisted of me, the violinists family (who loved every note) and a family with 2 kids. So despite the flamboyant and self-aggrandizing playing, not much of a draw. And yeah, for jollies, I'll slip in some classical, or jazz or pop music theme into a break OCCASIONALLY (usually when I'm bored) - this was a whole set of that. 8-9 songs of it. Not Old-time, more ballads and such with the afore mentioned DWDG, which was parodied to present the violinist in question as the winner of the Golden Fiddle.

Hey I get all musicians need to work. But if you can;t be bothered to at least sound like you like the music, look elsewhere. Imagine said violinist showed up at a Irish event or Scottish or Cajun or any other genre' and did the same thing. Yes all the notes are there, just not played with the heart. Maybe thats it. The music ain't on the paper and it ain't in the fingers or head. It's in the heart. No heart - its just notes.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 08/12/2025:  04:28:11

quote:

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Originally posted by wrench13

So,

I dont like hearing scratchy, off pitch fiddlers any more then the next person and if it came to the choice in this instance, me, I'da got almost anything different.



Authentic - maybe thats the word. There was zero authenticity, no attempt at it at all. As far as audience enjoyment, actually the audience consisted of me, the violinists family (who loved every note) and a family with 2 kids. So despite the flamboyant and self-aggrandizing playing, not much of a draw. And yeah, for jollies, I'll slip in some classical, or jazz or pop music theme into a break OCCASIONALLY (usually when I'm bored) - this was a whole set of that. 8-9 songs of it. Not Old-time, more ballads and such with the afore mentioned DWDG, which was parodied to present the violinist in question as the winner of the Golden Fiddle.



Hey I get all musicians need to work. But if you can;t be bothered to at least sound like you like the music, look elsewhere. Imagine said violinist showed up at a Irish event or Scottish or Cajun or any other genre' and did the same thing. Yes all the notes are there, just not played with the heart. Maybe thats it. The music ain't on the paper and it ain't in the fingers or head. It's in the heart. No heart - its just notes.

---

That puts it into context a little better. If it really didn't have any soul to it, that's disappointing, and just using the repertoire as a way to show off without giving it any thought is a disservice to the music. I do think any player wanting to play a different genre should put effort into learning about it before playing it in front of anyone else. You could apply the same argument to players of old time or bluegrass who decide to play Bach; some put in the time and effort to get a sense of the music, some just use it as a way to attempt to show off but do so without any understanding, and the result is something much less than Bach. 

I think it should be pointed out, though, that if the playing was soulless, that made it bad violin playing in general. I think there is a tendency to ascribe cold, detached, and mechanical playing to classical players among players of other genres, and that  characterization is flagrantly flawed.  Any good player of the violin in any discipline needs to have a good sense of musicality, so to me, a violinist playing mechanically is not a good violinist. From the description of this player, it sounds as though he may have had some technique but not much musicality. If that's the case, it's the result of bad teaching or a lack of musical sensibility, not of playing classical music. 

Erockin - Posted - 08/12/2025:  09:48:44

This here is why I won't post myself faking a "Fiddle" song...

ChickenMan - Posted - 08/12/2025:  10:35:16

quote:

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Originally posted by Erockin

This here is why I won't post myself faking a "Fiddle" song...

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You're not faking, you're learning. Big difference.

wrench13 - Posted - 08/12/2025:  12:10:28

Hit the nail on the head , Rich. Soulless. Your a much better wordsmith than I. I know a few fiddlers who are music teachers, one at a college level, and they sure as heck play fiddle in addition to what ever classical stuff they need to.

doryman - Posted - 08/12/2025:  19:09:02

quote:

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Originally posted by wrench13

Hit the nail on the head , Rich. Soulless. 

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We have a lot of that going on in our little town right now.  Bluegrass, old-time, western swing,  americana...fiddle type music is enjoying a renaissance here, and classically trained violinist, with zero experience with these genres, are hopping on the band wagon; gigging, teaching, and joining in on jams.  It sure sounds...proficient. 

On the other hand, one has to start someplace and maybe I'm just jealous. I sure wish I was great at violin before I started playing fiddle!

ShawnCraver - Posted - 08/13/2025:  06:34:34

i take performances for what they are more than what i'd like them to be...even when it's hokey.... i spent a lot of time in Branson Missouri and actually enjoy a little hokeyness... show biz is show biz.

but i have felt bothered by some when they get authoritative/dogmatic in performance or teaching. acting as educators in performance or representatives for things they know little about

Old Scratch - Posted - 08/13/2025:  08:08:02

Trouble is, you have to know an awful lot about the subject before you realize how little you actually know about it. When I was a young man, I was a great authority in any number of fields; you didn't even have to ask ....



Used to be, when I was coming up, the fiddlers I heard never said a word on stage, other than, rarely, "Thank you", just as they were half out of their seat at the end of their bit. Now you get fiddlers who do as much talking as playing on stage ... but, times have changed, and show biz is show biz ........

I might add, that many if not most of the really good fiddlers I've known have just wanted to play music, and have had limited interest in its background and origins - unless there's a good story involved.

Edited by - Old Scratch on 08/13/2025 08:17:38

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 08/13/2025:  13:57:12

I enjoy it when I hear English spoken with an accent that isn't the one I was born into (I was born in L.A. in the middle of the last century). In keeping with this, if a musician is able to convey mood & emotion and is able to play with at least a reasonable amount of technical ability, I'm all for it.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/13/2025:  14:03:33

Violinning and Fiddling....Two different disciplines separated by the same instrument.

gapbob - Posted - 08/13/2025:  19:40:47

Imagine going to a classical concert, where Mendelssohn’s Violin Concerto was on the billing, and finding Charlie Daniels was the soloist.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 08/13/2025:  21:11:20

quote:

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Originally posted by gapbob

Imagine going to a classical concert, where Mendelssohn’s Violin Concerto was on the billing, and finding Charlie Daniels was the soloist.

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I'd listen with open ears and an open mind. Is the performance convincing? Whatever style emerges from his fiddle as the concerto proceeds, is Charlie able to tell the concerto's story, or at least his own story?

ShawnCraver - Posted - 08/14/2025:  04:45:28

i was the opposite when i was younger...slow to claim knowledge of anything. we had a strong culture when i was a kid in the mountains... to respect what came before...especially elders. we'd sit and listen to old people tell stories. if we didn't shut up and listen "seen and not heard" we'd be told to go play. that culture had advantages and disadvantages.

docmarc - Posted - 08/18/2025:  15:10:37

I'm not quite sure, but I think the Headline for this thread triggered one of those 'geez' memory moments.

Several years ago we were assembling a Bluegrass band featuring three nice voices, a 5-string, guitar, dobro, mandolin and upright bass. We needed a fiddle. We scoured around and one of our bunch brought in a lady that played with a big orchestra. She claimed to be the number two in a section of seven violin players. She was pretty brazen in her skills - noting that her Classical training and experience would carry her easily in a band that plays simple folk music.

She came to a first rehearsal - we were all excited about adding a formidable musician to our 'front-porch' group. The first question from her was "... who will be providing the arrangements?" Sadly, she could not play a single song without written music... even songs that she played for herself outside of the orchestra required notation. She did come armed with notation for a few tunes that were clearly from a Theater production. She played those tunes perfectly.

We couldn't.

I regret a little that we just couldn't adapt or even help her find a way to play from recordings or history or experience.

Old Scratch - Posted - 08/18/2025:  15:17:12

Back in the late '70s, I was talking with an older banjo player who told me about getting hired for a gig with an "Irish" bar band - "And when I got there - they had no charts!!" He couldn't get over it. My impression was that he came from some kind of jazz background.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 08/18/2025:  15:32:16

I have no problems letting my fingers do the walking when it comes to the guitar and fiddle. But seat me at  a piano and it's either music-in-front-of-me or forcing out a handful of miserable cliches.

Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 08/18/2025 15:33:59

DougD - Posted - 08/18/2025:  16:14:08

docmarc's experience is why many people have a "knee jerk" reaction towards classical violinists trying to play traditional music. Some have an arrogant confidence that their skills will allow them to play styles of music about which they know little or nothing.
On the other hand, I think the first two fiddlers I played with both had classical training, and many of my favorite players of the "younger" generation are also classically schooled. But they respect and admire the traditional styles, and have spent considerable time learning and understanding how to play them.

wrench13 - Posted - 08/18/2025:  17:28:34

Docmarc my daughter was 1st chair sax in a highly regarded school jazz orchestra. Despite that she could never ever join my 2 sons and I jamming in the basement studio. Had to have the sheet music. But this and your story are a different point then the one I made originally. Plowing one's way thru music where there is no interest or investment in the style is almost painful to listen to, for those that have. Its disrespectful to music, the audience and the other players.

I find that most classical violinists do better playing with rock and other less structured music, where breaks are pretty much open to what ever and heavily augmented with effects, disguising the dryness (for lack of a better word) of whats being played.

But a different discussion to be sure.

farmerjones - Posted - 08/18/2025:  17:35:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

I have no problems letting my fingers do the walking when it comes to the guitar and fiddle. But seat me at  a piano and it's either music-in-front-of-me or forcing out a handful of miserable cliches.

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Indeed, I found it a lonely cyber world for a pianar player that plays by ear.  I was also told there's only two types of music. Classical and Jazz. Lonesome as Justin Bieber at Beanblosom.

NCnotes - Posted - 08/18/2025:  18:56:20

I know a player like that…she started a jig, but we didn’t recognize it? The rhythm was somehow even and flattened out…? Yet as a violinist, she considers herself a superior player to other fiddlers (she has told me so!)

But I think she’s a little lonely (lives alone, has cats) and seeks out the sessions mostly for social reasons … and I do like chatting with her. :-)

docmarc - Posted - 08/19/2025:  08:09:47

NCnotes... "...has cats." HAHAHAHAHA. The visuals...

Old Scratch - Posted - 08/19/2025:  08:16:15

Just a reminder, folks: you never know who's going to read what you post here .....

wrench13 - Posted - 08/19/2025:  12:16:36

Quincy - Posted - 09/02/2025:  19:50:09

My Kentucky friend told me a good one hehe: a violinist is a fiddler who went to college :-p

Quincy - Posted - 09/02/2025:  19:55:37

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Scratch

Just a reminder, folks: you never know who's going to read what you post here .....

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Now I am scared for real!!

farmerjones - Posted - 09/03/2025:  09:24:30

Hey, I went to college once!
Iowa State! I dropped a buddy off, and got Shanghai'd for three days.

NCnotes - Posted - 09/05/2025:  10:11:58

There are many young great fiddlers today with degrees from music schools!
At least, the few that I’ve seen in concert. :-)

ShawnCraver - Posted - 09/07/2025:  09:17:31

Seems to me the "old time" scene is dominated by music school players... at least the ones that end up touring....i can hear it in their bowing/playing... most bowing the same way ... . all good musicians, of course. I think they're best at banjo.

.. my fiddling led me to higher education. im one of first in my immediate and extended family to have a degree.

Old Scratch - Posted - 09/07/2025:  11:59:49

ShawnCraver ".. my fiddling led me to higher education." - Now, that's something you won't hear often! So - did you study music, or is it a little more roundabout than that?

DougD - Posted - 09/07/2025:  12:03:18

Maybe, observing the possibilities of a fiddling career, he decided it would be better to seek a degree in something like aerospace engineeting?

wrench13 - Posted - 09/07/2025:  14:34:46

Doug you mean something that actually pays money? Like art or poetry?

ShawnCraver - Posted - 09/09/2025:  05:02:18

i have had one music class in my life... music theory at a community college. otherwise i am formally educated in humanities/theology... the most practical of all is still music... saved me this month. car payment... MADE!

Edited by - ShawnCraver on 09/09/2025 05:03:00

wrench13 - Posted - 09/09/2025:  07:13:52

Oh no doubt that music can earn some $$, heck I put my 2 boys thru college with pirate music (well they did - it was their share). And I got no beef with classically trained violin players dipping their toes into the fiddle playin' pool - money is money, right? Everybody got to eat. But at least put the effort and care into sounding like fiddle, and not snippets of the 24 Caprices.

Old Scratch - Posted - 09/09/2025:  08:06:31

Well, Leonard Cohen decided to focus on music when he realized he couldn't make a living writing poetry. Might seem like going from the frying pan into the fire, but it seems to have worked out for him ... !