Strabo - Posted - 07/13/2025:  06:20:45

I recently attended a local concert by a finger style guitar player. He’s a very good guitar player with excellent, well-practiced technical skills. His singing was OK, but somewhat overshadowed by his focus on the guitar.

He touched up the tuning of his guitar between each and every song. It was hard to hear his comments about the next song because his head was down, focused on the tuner. At one point, when he switched to an alternative tuning, he mumbled an extended explanation go the virtues of alternative tunings. It was savagely boring.

Now, I’m definitely a fan of alternative tunings. I use two fiddles so I can have one cross-tuned, ready to go. Gosh, I’d even cross-tune my mandolin if it wasn’t such a hassle to get all eight strings right. And I’m sensitive to an instrument that’s out of tune -- I don’t like it when it sounds wrong.

But I’m not about to stop the music so I can diddle with my fiddle until it’s exactly in tune. I’m not about to subject listeners -- or myself -- to a slow-moving, tedious process of making the instrument deliciously perfect. It stops the flow of the music and it’s disrespectful to an audience to put most of my attention into myself and my precious instrument. Also, I do wonder how many audience members notice an instrument that is slightly out of tune.

Maybe I need to practice playing slightly out of tune. Maybe I need to get better at focusing on the rhythm, the tempo, the melody, and the harmonies -- and ignore any slight dissonances that pop up. Maybe I just need to power through those little jangles and keep the music going. I do recall Ricky Skaggs commenting that when his mandolin is slightly off tune it's only like having more players there.

End of rant.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 07/13/2025:  09:08:19

Well, I am wondering if this player has near perfect pitch. To someone with that skill, being ever so slightly out of tune can be problematic. But as you say… dealing with a live audience, avoiding “ dead air” or losing the connection is a skill that player needs some work on.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/13/2025:  12:27:30

My portable, battery-powered metronome has the ability to give me a 440hz "A." When I want to be in Standard Tuning I start the tuning process by matching the fiddle's A string to that tone. I then locate the other tones by singing "do-re-mi-fa-sol" in my head and tuning the fiddle strings to the do-sol interval...which is always in my head, anyway because it's the interval for the opening of the signature tune in "2001, A Space Odyssey." I also have a bridge with fine tuners for each string, which helps immensely in getting the tunings absolutely right-on.

It might also be said that the pitch a string produces is always slightly higher when you're bowing it, not just plucking it. One more thing to worry about!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/13/2025:  13:09:53

There is an art to playing an instrument that has slipped out of tune...lol...I've had to do that many times and it sure will keep you on your toes. I heard that some great violinists...I can't remember which one, possibly itzak perlman (sp?) or somebody like that, when he held master classes he would pull the student's violin out of pitch and hand it back to them to play in front of the class...a challenge for the violin students.



Of course it's also important to keep one's instrument in tune as much as possible...but to take up a lot of concert time might bore your audience...lol...I guess. Can't say for sure because I've been to only about three concerts that I can think of...and they were so long ago I don't remember...ok make it four...four concerts many years ago....I don't remember anything about whether people stopped to tune or any of that. But seems it would be kinda boring unless they had developed an art of telling a tale while also tuning...lol.  

I know in this day and age if I find somebody playing something on youtube, I get antsy and get off their video pretty fast if they start talking too much...lol.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/13/2025 13:11:44

DougD - Posted - 07/13/2025:  13:15:38

Peggy, I think you attended a Doc Watson concert once. What did he do?

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/13/2025:  13:29:02

He tuned. He said "We tune because we care," and everybody laughed...lol...don't know why that was funny...but I think the small audience loved him so much we were just all very reactive to his very being...whatever he said and did. I flatout forgot about the Doc Watson concert...make that five...gee whiz, Doug...sometimes you just scare me...lol...I mean...thanks for helping me remember about my life events...lol. The other four concerts were back in SE Ky...the Doc Watson one was at Moonlight Gardens in Coney Island, Cincinnati...sometime in our life up here...on Mother's Day. He said it was only time ever being in Cincinnati, but he had a line of relatives waiting to see him that lived in the general area. We went up after the relatives...got our picture made with him. I was so awestruck my face was super red...of course it was a pretty hot day too. That was a great concert...amazing I just didn't think of that one. Daughter bought me a ticket for a Mother's Day gift. I guess, come to think of it...I also attended an Eddie Pennington concert up in Devou Park across from Cincinnati in Ky...he was super cool and funny...I don't remember him tuning, but I do remember it started getting dark and he commented he couldn't see the dots on his fret board anymore...lol...he was great, though. He let me play Windy and Warm on his fancy luthier-made guitar after the concert. Super nice guy.  So, make that six concerts...lol.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/13/2025 13:29:43

wrench13 - Posted - 07/13/2025:  13:58:54

I always say "Lady, you couldn't afford us to play out of tune".

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/13/2025:  14:03:14

Quickly refining tuning between numbers is fine, but too much of it is distracting. If you’re changing tunings, it makes sense to use a second instrument so that it’s more pitch-stable.

If you’re playing solo music there aren’t any opportunities to subtly adjust the strings as you play, so it’s important to be in tune when you begin each piece. Especially if you’re playing more percussive pieces, the strings are likely to end up out of tune by the end. During a piece you have to deal with it as it is.

If you have a roadie or guitar tech on staff, keeping a couple guitars tuned and ready to go keeps it seamless and more professional. For comparison, it’s like a professional cyclist showing up with a bike and trying to adjust it during the race—if it can’t be fixed in a matter of seconds, the mechanics should be taking care of it and switching it out for one of the rider’s other bikes.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/13/2025:  14:10:17

Oh yeah...Michael Cleveland played right here at our county library one time...free to the public...make that 7 concerts ... I guess I'm caught up now. I forgot the ones from up here...anyway...I'm caught up now. I never bought tickets to any of these...all were free except Doc Watson. Of course, this is all so meaningless, it's probably even more boring than the performers who spend a bunch a time tuning on stage...lol.  But it's ok because at least I'm not tuning anything at the moment...and I wish I was tuning something ... that day seems far away, given circumstances.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/13/2025 14:11:21

ChickenMan - Posted - 07/14/2025:  11:34:53

That performer needs to work on telling a story or say something funny during the retune. Seems to be kind of the standard for most good entertainers. Talking to the audience takes practice.

When I watch/listen to those Highwoods shows, seems whoever did most of the talking (Walt?) was a natural. The fella who fronted our bluegrass band (he passed away) was also a natural. Since his passing we mostly tell jokes during tuning and apologize for the lack of banter, often siting how we miss Jeff and that includes his ability to engage folks.

tonyelder - Posted - 07/30/2025:  11:55:05

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

That performer needs to work on telling a story or say something funny during the retune. Seems to be kind of the standard for most good entertainers. Talking to the audience takes practice.



When I watch/listen to those Highwoods shows, seems whoever did most of the talking (Walt?) was a natural. The fella who fronted our bluegrass band (he passed away) was also a natural. Since his passing we mostly tell jokes during tuning and apologize for the lack of banter, often siting how we miss Jeff and that includes his ability to engage folks.

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Ron Thomason (The Dry Branch Fire Squad) perfected that into an art form. 

Dan Gellert - Posted - 08/12/2025:  09:39:43

I use steel-core strings and fine tuners on all my fiddles, and once I'm in tune, I seldom find the need to spend more than a few seconds readjusting a string on stage. I usually carry a double case, and will switch fiddles if I want to change tuning mid-set.

When it comes to tuning, and tuning stability, fretted instruments present a whole bunch of challenges which are either insignificant or nonexistent on a fiddle. For starters, there's the problem of temperament-- tuning the instrument optimally requires the intervals between strings each to be just the correct amount OUT of tune. Then, to produce something tolerably close to an accurate 12-TET scale, there are dozens (more like hundreds) of measurements which must be accurate to ridiculously small tolerances-- on an instrument made out of wood, which changes shape in response to any change in temperature or humidity!

I could rant on for pages, but there are loads more perfectly valid reasons why guitarists and banjoists have problems getting and staying in tune. Minimizing those problems is mostly a matter of paying obsessive amounts of attention to setup and maintenance, and most of us just want to play music....

wrench13 - Posted - 08/12/2025:  14:01:38

FOr guitar and banjo, I tune the E's on guitar and the G's (or A's) on banjo and then tune in 5ths with open strings. FOr guitar if I wind up with the e's not needing adjustment I know I'm pretty close. ANd I tune about where I will be playing on them, which these days is like the first 4 frets, since my wailin' electric guitar days are kinda over.



WHat I noticed tuning my fiddle now with a Peterson strobe tuner, that I never really noticed before, the after ringing when you play an open string isn't exactly in tune, if you don't have the strobe to check it, usually being a bit flat. With a SNark type tuner, you wont see it clearly, but with a strobe tuner, its very apparent. SO now the technique is hit an open string , get that in tune and then see what the after ringing is doing (usually flat) and finely adjust that so both the played note and the after sound are in tune. It makes quite a difference. Hey Rich, can you comment on that phenomena?

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/13/2025:  04:44:10

I'm just an ol' back porch musician-wanna-be...but I've always just used my tuning fork for an A, from there tune around, and then play a few chords and stuff up the neck to get it out of tune but in tune enough to sound good to my ear. A guitar is always off, the frets just do that...playing chord progressions up and down in any and every key does that...you just adjust to what sounds good to your ear...in my experience on my back porch...actually we just have a front porch where we live now.

For banjo it's similar but of course sounds more outta tune...lol...the way the tones resonate out from a banjo seems to make them wiggle a little as they leave the instrument.

On fiddle I do the same...tune to A, even if I'm in GDGD...I listen to the A to go to any tuning...then tune around that A. If fiddling around something sounds off, I adjust to what my own ear tells me.

One of the most irritating things to me personally in the jBG band I was in for a few years a while back was they insisted on everybody tuning to one of those electronic gizmos they hook on their instruments and obsess with all the time..lol...sorry, I can't say it nice. To me....we were all out of tune because of that very thing. Of course I wasn't any important person in the band and had no say, and just wanted to be nice and polite and all that, so I went along...but honestly, I was so happy when somehow my tuner went missing at a big BG jam we all attended together...maybe somebody stole it or maybe it just got lost in the crowd or something...either way...it was a relief to me to not be able to find it as we packed up to leave the place...lol. And I never got around to replacing the doggone thing.

farmerjones - Posted - 08/13/2025:  05:41:30

A recon big dogs like Dan Timinski, and Billy Strings, mess with tuners because they get fresh strings often. They barely get a chance to get strings settled in. But people watch them, and think it's fashionable. Like having those carbuncle tuners on their headstocks. To each their own. But mandolins are another thing. If one enjoys tweaking and tuning, get a mandolin.

ChickenMan - Posted - 08/13/2025:  10:15:44

There no reason a pro steel string guitar player needs to tune repeatedly, especially one who likely has a guitar tech and a quality guitar. You put new strings on, yank on them, retune, yank and retune until they are stable. First thing I learned about restringing, have never had an issue and almost never have needed to tune mid-set in 3 decades of playing on stage.

ChickenMan - Posted - 08/13/2025:  10:17:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by wrench13

FOr guitar and banjo, I tune the E's on guitar and the G's (or A's) on banjo and then tune in 5ths with open strings. FOr guitar if I wind up with the e's not needing adjustment I know I'm pretty close. ANd I tune about where I will be playing on them, which these days is like the first 4 frets, since my wailin' electric guitar days are kinda over.



WHat I noticed tuning my fiddle now with a Peterson strobe tuner, that I never really noticed before, the after ringing when you play an open string isn't exactly in tune, if you don't have the strobe to check it, usually being a bit flat. With a SNark type tuner, you wont see it clearly, but with a strobe tuner, its very apparent. SO now the technique is hit an open string , get that in tune and then see what the after ringing is doing (usually flat) and finely adjust that so both the played note and the after sound are in tune. It makes quite a difference. Hey Rich, can you comment on that phenomena?

---

IMO you should tune using a bowed string for this very reason.

wrench13 - Posted - 08/13/2025:  10:56:56

Bill thats what i do. Bow it to make sure the bowed note is true, then let off and make sure the after ringing is also true.

DougD - Posted - 08/13/2025:  11:13:10

People seem to like to mention their "strobe" tuners (most of which are digital simulations of some sort), so I might as well join in. I have a "REAL" tube type Conn Strobotuner, which still works (last time I tried it). Not very portable though.
americanhistory.si.edu/collect...h_1203692
So if you want your instrument accurately tuned you can ship it to me, and I'll tune it and send it back. Price on request.

Edited by - DougD on 08/13/2025 11:29:06

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/13/2025:  12:17:11

I remember that from high school band...stop by the strob machine before going into the band room and taking your seat...lol.

DougD - Posted - 08/13/2025:  12:40:29

Peggy, what instrument did you play in the band? I had a brief career as a bassoonist, so when people complain about hard the fiddle is I just have to chuckle!

TuneWeaver - Posted - 08/13/2025:  13:27:55

I play a banjo often in our Tuesday jams.. i'm tuning when I get there, after each fiddle tune, and often in the middle of a fiddle tune!!! BUT More seriously... I tune my fiddle more and more often these days because I just sound better if I'm 'tight' in tune.. I've gone from just a dial tuner to a Tone Generator and YES it makes a difference.....As for the guy's performance, as mentioned, he may be cursed with perfect pitch OR, considers it 'stylistic to just look like you are changing something...' .. don't know..

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/13/2025:  13:41:52

Anything with frets is inherently out of tune. Just power through it.

wrench13 - Posted - 08/14/2025:  04:01:50

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

Peggy, what instrument did you play in the band? I had a brief career as a bassoonist, so when people complain about hard the fiddle is I just have to chuckle!

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AMEN, Doug!  THe double reed instruments are a family I could never master.  ANd goes for my ongoing struggle with bagpipes.  Friends, if you want an object lesson in futility, take up the pipes. 

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/14/2025:  18:51:51

Doug, I found a used trombone in the local paper and bought it for around 12.00. It stunk bad and kept falling apart as we marched for football half-times. But our school did have some other instruments so when the band director got to know me he let me play oboe, French horn, sax...they did have a bassoon but it was messed up. Anyway he taught any of us who were enthusiastic about instruments to play whatever was sitting back there unused. I can't remember what-all I did play but not bassoon...oboe oh yeah and English horn too...they were enough to bust a lung...lol.

DougD - Posted - 08/15/2025:  05:46:40

French horn? Did you know they say that trying to play that thing makes people go crazy?
When I was in elementary school I wanted to play the oboe, but the woodwind teacher who came to our school every week wanted to have a quartet, and he already had a good oboe player. So he said "You have big hands - you should play the bassoon." He might have thought that was a good idea, but I didn't. I wasted a lot of people's time with that thing!