PSS - Posted - 07/10/2025:  17:13:40

Complete newby here; less than a month. My jaw does not like any of the chin rests I've tried. I've noticed that my jar bone has a somewhat significant bump right where the horizonal plane turns to the vertical. Anatomical drawing on the web indicate that this junction, the "Angle of the Mandible" (AOM) is always depicted with a bit of a bump, so I don't think my jaw is unique.

The list of chin rests and shoulder rests that I've bought and tried is somewhat extensive. I've improved the situation, but it feels like I'm bruising the bone right at the tip of the AOM. I can't practice for very long. I have a chin pad and a moldable chin pad coming. But I'm curious what others with a noticeable AOM have done to get comfortable playing.

Strabo - Posted - 07/11/2025:  04:12:50

I don't know anything about AOM. I do know that everyone is different, and many people experience some challenges adjusting to the odd ergonomics of the violin.

I too tried numerous combinations of chin rests, shoulder rests, and various accessories before I found a chin rest (no shoulder rest) that allowed me to play without strain or discomfort. Now, four years later, I can play with setups that are less than optimal for me. I think it took some time for my body to develop the appropriate strength and balance to manage the fiddle.

Be patient. Give it time. Everything about the fiddle requires patience.

DougD - Posted - 07/11/2025:  06:22:21

I don't know about AOM either, but I'm guessing that you're exerting too much pressure, especially if you don't think your jaw is unique. The key to playing the violin (or any instrumentl) is to relax. The instrument doesn't have to be absolutely rigid. I'd suggest you start with the simplest chinrest (I like the little ones that you find on old fiddles) and try and play with the least posslible force. This is often difficult for beginners, but it will come.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/11/2025:  06:48:30

This sounds like a posture issue. Why is that area of the jawbone in contact with the chinrest? To be touching at the AOM your jaw has to be in an extreme position. Although the chinrest isn’t necessarily used at the dead center of the chin, it is designed for contact in and around that area, hence its name. One can only add that much of the jawbone by holding the violin out of position (should be lightly held between chin and collarbone) or by rotating the head when approaching the cup, which is bad for the neck and jaw.

A large number of players develop discomfort and pain as the result of poor posture and/or the use of various gadgets to try to customize fit without understanding the mechanics of playing and posture. Since many people play for as much as ten hours a day, getting posture right is of critical interest importance. Playing casually allows one to get away with more, but even then, the possibility of pain and discomfort still exists.

The chinrest was invented in 1802 as a tool for making shifting easier by taking weight off of the left hand. Prior to that the violin was played without any chinrest. The development of the shoulder rest encouraged a very different approach to posture, where the instrument is “locked” into place on the shoulder and chin. If you watch a player with great posture who doesn’t use a shoulder rest, you can observe how gently the violin is held at the chin.

Pictures of the current playing position would help to illustrate the problem.

NCnotes - Posted - 07/11/2025:  11:13:22

When I learned as a kid…
my teacher pushed the violin to my neck at the right angle…she said, “drop your chin”. And then she let go. The weight of my head held the violin in place! She made me walk around the room with my hands down.

So there’s no shoulder/arm/neck tension involved…it’s your head weight (8lbs?) that’s doing the work.

I think she taught me well because I have never had shoulder/neck issues despite LOTS of playing…sometimes I absently am holding my instrument between chin/shoulder as I jot down notes, or shuffle through sheet music with my hands..

Anyway there are also fiddlers that don’t use their jaw at all! They play the fiddle down, leaning against their chest, so they can sing periodically! Seems to work fine.

Lastly, to figure out your playing posture/setup it might be worth a consult with a teacher. Seems like an in-person observation type situation…

wrench13 - Posted - 07/11/2025:  11:36:16

By yourself, the search for the optimal chin rest and shoulder rest could be long, frustrating and fairly expensive, as it was for me. I have a whole draw full of chin and shoulder rests, tried and ultimately put aside, from the search. If you can, get a good classical teacher to give some direction. Them classical people may not know Ol Joe Clark from a Chinese onion, but playing positions is something they worked out a long time ago.

PSS - Posted - 07/11/2025:  12:20:40

Thanks to all for the responses. I imagine no one every picked up a fiddle for the first time and said, Man that's comfortable. I have a lesson with the local Suzuki lady in August. Meanwhile I'll keep experimenting and trying to relax.

NCnotes - Posted - 07/11/2025:  21:15:50

"I imagine no one every picked up a fiddle for the first time and said, Man that's comfortable. " Ha, true! :-D



Yep, hopefully she can take a look and figure out where the issue is, and help you to get a chinrest and/or shoulderrest fitted. May take some trial and error...



Until then...try not to get in a muscle habit of "squeezing" fiddle between your chin and shoulder, or always having your left shoulder lifted ... this is apparently a common cause of RSI (repetitive stress injury) in violinists.

Edited by - NCnotes on 07/11/2025 21:16:15

crunchie812 - Posted - 07/12/2025:  10:32:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

When I learned as a kid…

my teacher pushed the violin to my neck at the right angle…she said, “drop your chin”. And then she let go. The weight of my head held the violin in place! She made me walk around the room with my hands down.



So there’s no shoulder/arm/neck tension involved…it’s your head weight (8lbs?) that’s doing the work.



I think she taught me well because I have never had shoulder/neck issues despite LOTS of playing…sometimes I absently am holding my instrument between chin/shoulder as I jot down notes, or shuffle through sheet music with my hands..



Anyway there are also fiddlers that don’t use their jaw at all! They play the fiddle down, leaning against their chest, so they can sing periodically! Seems to work fine.



Lastly, to figure out your playing posture/setup it might be worth a consult with a teacher. Seems like an in-person observation type situation…

---

That's the way I learned as a kid as well. Worked great when I was 5'4! Then over the next few years I shot up to 6' and it didn't work so well. This was just before shoulder rests became common, I never saw one back then. 

When I started playing again I spent a few hundred dollars on shoulder rests and chin rests, had a drawer full of them suckers. Finally ended up with a homemade strap like the Aceto strap, and built a rest on the back of the fiddle that rests on my chest. Life is good!

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/12/2025:  15:31:32

I'm certain I've already posted this once or twice, but when I was heavily into getting my fiddles sorted out and made more comfortable, I had the good fortune of living in Los Angeles, a town brimming (well, almost brimming) with stores that sold violins and other string instruments. I was able to stroll into several places with a fiddle in hand and get them to give me a try with various chin rests. I wound up with three different styles of chin rest for each of my three fiddles. To be sure, not every rest I tried was comfortable but the three I bought are comfortable as heck.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/14/2025:  12:59:41

I imagine no one every picked up a fiddle for the first time and said, Man that's comfortable. 

I didn't find it particularly uncomfortable or painful. With most instruments never held before, there is a bit of finding what's most natural, comfortable and efficient, sometimes experimenting, working out bit of balance; slight different positions. If something is painful, is body telling you that's something's wrong, try something else. Part of process is to examine what need is, for what purpose. Re-examine what assume or maybe interpreted what need to do.

As far as AOM, might experiment with what part of the chin/jaw contacts the fiddle, what angle and where. You will see quite a bit of variation in what works for individuals, what their body tells them feels most comfortable... or perhaps what they might need to do (or think need to do).

Along the lines of what Doug mentioned, about being relaxed, not rigid, applying too much pressure, using least force; simpler chinrest. One option in use of chinrest (and/or SR), just for relaxed chin to catch to prevent slippage on that end...  not chin to actually "hold" the of fiddle, using force; nor need to take the weight off the left hand. The weight of the scroll side is held up and supported by just resting against part of the left hand. The tail end weight is supported by back of fiddle just rests against part of the body, such as collarbone. Granted generally requires the left hand to be at the fingerboard; so probably won't allow you to use the fiddle with hands down and walk around; or free the hand, to do something other than for fingering notes if that's important to you.

boxbow - Posted - 07/15/2025:  09:33:26

Guilty as charged. As a professional user of power tools, I'm a natural for over-gripping, chin clamping, tooth grinding, and plenty more besides. After about ten years I had to start taking time off from fiddling to get the stiff neck to fade. It is now a permanent feature. Meanwhile I've studied lightening my touch and reducing the clamping. I now play quite comfortably (and ever so happily) for a few hours but I generally ease way off for a week or so thereafter. Thanks to this thread, I have resolved to discuss this with my luthier on my next trip down. I have to work up a list of chores for him because it's around 4 hours' drive south to visit him just below Green Bay.  I am also acquainted with a local violinist with considerable experience as a classical teacher. I expect to see her at our local music festival next weekend.  And somebody mentioned a violin ergonomics study or posture exercises or something like that.  Gotta look into it.



SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT!!!!!



Hiawatha Traditional Music Festival at Tourist Park, Marquette, MI. Friday evening dance through Sunday night. Two stages, Teen Scene, Children's area, workshops and LOTS OF FIRESIDE JAMMING! Incredibly crowded camping scene. Actual hot showers available! Food vendors. Art In the Round (from Kitsch to Cool)

Edited by - boxbow on 07/15/2025 09:50:15

farmerjones - Posted - 07/15/2025:  19:25:54

Sometimes I use my shoulder rest mostly for traction. So my fiddle doesn't slip off my shirt. (maybe not employing the chin rest at all) Tho, I'm not going to remove it. Sometimes I use my shoulder rest and chin rest for what they're intended. Pretty darned comfortable. It's all about your neck. Long or short.

Strangely, I find anti-shoulder rest people more dogmatic than shoulder rest users. Could be my point of view. I can but won't play without a shoulder rest. Just like I can but won't play a guitar in standard tuning. I'm old and don't care.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/15/2025:  23:37:16

farmerjones -- I now only play my guitars in standard tuning...probably because my current jam partners don't know anything else. For that matter, I think we only play in G.

Strabo - Posted - 07/16/2025:  05:12:32

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Sometimes I use my shoulder rest mostly for traction. So my fiddle doesn't slip off my shirt. (maybe not employing the chin rest at all) Tho, I'm not going to remove it. Sometimes I use my shoulder rest and chin rest for what they're intended. Pretty darned comfortable. It's all about your neck. Long or short.



Strangely, I find anti-shoulder rest people more dogmatic than shoulder rest users. Could be my point of view. I can but won't play without a shoulder rest. Just like I can but won't play a guitar in standard tuning. I'm old and don't care.

---

I tried multiple shoulder rests and could not make it work, so I play without a shoulder rest. But I know that I'm prejudiced -- I like simplicity and I don't want to depend on extra gear. So I guess I'm dogmatic about it -- at least for myself.  I do understand that everyone has different needs and preferences...

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/18/2025:  05:31:59

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Strangely, I find anti-shoulder rest people more dogmatic than shoulder rest users. Could be my point of view. I can but won't play without a shoulder rest. Just like I can but won't play a guitar in standard tuning. I'm old and don't care.

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While it's true that many anti-shoulder rest proponents are dogmatic, I wouldn't agree that they're more so than the proponents of the rests. I imagine you're probably meeting a lot of players that have chosen to use them, but likely not a lot of the teachers who insist that all their students use the exact model that they prefer. The shoulder rest became a common accessory as the result of the popularity of the Suzuki program. Because so many players begin playing with that method or learn from teachers who have been through it, the shoulder rest is promoted as a part of the instrument equal to the chinrest in importance.

farmerjones - Posted - 07/18/2025:  09:06:47

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Strangely, I find anti-shoulder rest people more dogmatic than shoulder rest users. Could be my point of view. I can but won't play without a shoulder rest. Just like I can but won't play a guitar in standard tuning. I'm old and don't care.

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While it's true that many anti-shoulder rest proponents are dogmatic, I wouldn't agree that they're more so than the proponents of the rests. I imagine you're probably meeting a lot of players that have chosen to use them, but likely not a lot of the teachers who insist that all their students use the exact model that they prefer. The shoulder rest became a common accessory as the result of the popularity of the Suzuki program. Because so many players begin playing with that method or learn from teachers who have been through it, the shoulder rest is promoted as a part of the instrument equal to the chinrest in importance.

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Read my last sentence again, please. I guess I shouldn't have posted at all.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/18/2025:  10:19:52

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Strangely, I find anti-shoulder rest people more dogmatic than shoulder rest users. Could be my point of view. I can but won't play without a shoulder rest. Just like I can but won't play a guitar in standard tuning. I'm old and don't care.

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While it's true that many anti-shoulder rest proponents are dogmatic, I wouldn't agree that they're more so than the proponents of the rests. I imagine you're probably meeting a lot of players that have chosen to use them, but likely not a lot of the teachers who insist that all their students use the exact model that they prefer. The shoulder rest became a common accessory as the result of the popularity of the Suzuki program. Because so many players begin playing with that method or learn from teachers who have been through it, the shoulder rest is promoted as a part of the instrument equal to the chinrest in importance.

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Read my last sentence again, please. I guess I shouldn't have posted at all.

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The way I see it, if you feel compelled to make a statement, you must care on at least some level. I don't think you should avoid posting if you have something you want to share, but I do at the same time think that if you're commenting on a forum, you're inviting the discussion of your ideas. Why make a statement and then try to avoid standing behind it?

farmerjones - Posted - 07/18/2025:  15:30:02

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Strangely, I find anti-shoulder rest people more dogmatic than shoulder rest users. Could be my point of view. I can but won't play without a shoulder rest. Just like I can but won't play a guitar in standard tuning. I'm old and don't care.

---

While it's true that many anti-shoulder rest proponents are dogmatic, I wouldn't agree that they're more so than the proponents of the rests. I imagine you're probably meeting a lot of players that have chosen to use them, but likely not a lot of the teachers who insist that all their students use the exact model that they prefer. The shoulder rest became a common accessory as the result of the popularity of the Suzuki program. Because so many players begin playing with that method or learn from teachers who have been through it, the shoulder rest is promoted as a part of the instrument equal to the chinrest in importance.

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Read my last sentence again, please. I guess I shouldn't have posted at all.

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The way I see it, if you feel compelled to make a statement, you must care on at least some level. I don't think you should avoid posting if you have something you want to share, but I do at the same time think that if you're commenting on a forum, you're inviting the discussion of your ideas. Why make a statement and then try to avoid standing behind it?

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Nope. The OP should read and create his/her own opinion, and is free to choose. 

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/18/2025:  18:02:56

I know I've posted this before, but whenever I go to an orchestral performance I'm amazed at the various ways the fiddlers and violists hold their instruments. In other words, I'm convinced that the fiddlers and violists simply do whatever is easiest and most comfortable for them, personally.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/27/2025:  16:06:58

After a few years of pain and wasting my money trying this chin rest, that...this shoulder rest, that...I gave them all up and play the doggone thing bare back. No chin rest, no shoulder rest, just me and that fiddle. I tried holding it different ways where my chin wouldn't be involved too...didn't work. I just play the thing set as comfortably as possible between my natural shoulder and chin. Has worked better than any other way for me personally, except the few times I had to play in pretty bad heat and humidity, and then I had to make sure I could keep the sweat in check so as not to have it sliding around when I was trying to play...lol...other than bad heat and humidity conditions...it's worked ok for me over these couple of decades of playing. Of course I'm just mainly old timey so I'm not doing anything too fancy, so I don't need a super tight grip on it either.  That's just me...but hard for me to believe I'm the only one in the world who plays this way...lol.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/27/2025 16:07:35