Strabo - Posted - 07/06/2025:  11:02:16

I ran into an interesting problem.

I use two fiddles, one in standard tuning and the other cross-tuned. Both fiddles are German trade instruments rebuilt by Royce Burt. Their wonderful tone is just slightly different between there two, but the they play exactly the same.

I went traveling for the summer and left my cross-tuned fiddle at home. A relative loaned me her Eastman intermediate-level violin that she no longer plays. When I started playing the loaner I noticed that I was often playing sharp. The A on the E string was consistently sharp in relation to the open A string, and so on with the lower strings. To play in tune I needed to move my left hand further out on the neck, tightly against the hook or heel of the scroll (I don’t know the correct name for that part of the scroll -- it’s on the bottom of the scroll, directly under the nut.)

After thinking about it, I figured that maybe the bridge was too far forward. I measured the scale from bottom edge of the nut to the forward face of the bridge and found that the scale of the loaner was 1.5mm shorter than my regular fiddle (324.5 mmm vs 326mm). I adjusted the bridge to bring the scale to 326mm and that helped somewhat, but I still found my left hand pushing against the bottom of the scroll to play in tune.

So I concluded that these two fiddles have some physical differences, specifically that the neck is just a tad shorter on the Eastman loaner. I guess that could be understandable, given that these two instruments came from very different parts of the world, 100 years apart.

I ended up moving the bridge back an additional 2 mm and the fiddle now plays right -- I can go back and forth between the two fiddles without thinking about mechanics. I’m sure that a more competent fiddler would be able to adapt to differing dimensions among fiddles, but this seems like a functional solution for me -- the best fix that I could come up with. I certainly didn’t want to make any major changes to a loaner instrument and I’ll restore the original settings when I return it.

DougD - Posted - 07/06/2025:  11:11:05

How do any of these bridge positions relate to the notches in the ff holes?

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 07/06/2025:  11:12:44

Interesting post. Thank you. Also, a considerate borrower.... well done. R/

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/06/2025:  12:44:36

One of my earlier fiddles, I still have it, is a Juzek. I didn't know it when I started playing but realized later it was a seven eights size fiddle, sometimes called a "ladies fiddle". If this is what you have been playing then the setup may not need adjusting. Adjustments might mess things up a little.



I grabbed this from google:



Body Length: Around 345mm (13.5 inches), according to online retailers.

Overall Length: A 7/8 violin is about half an inch shorter than a full-size violin.

Neck and Body: The neck and body are slightly smaller and narrower than a full-size violin, which can be more comfortable for some players.

Edited by - Brian Wood on 07/06/2025 12:45:20

farmerjones - Posted - 07/06/2025:  13:35:42

In the lifetime of a set of strings, my bridge mite migrate 2mm. I have steel rule with a mark at 12 7/8" where I set all my fiddles the same.
I've never measured how much a fine tuner moves per percent of flat or sharp, but sliding into a harmony note with a fingertip seems like a gnats wing would make a difference to the ear.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/06/2025:  20:43:55

There are several measurements to consider along with VSL. In this case, the neck itself could be long. It could also be the case that the fingerboard and nut are not correctly positioned on the neck for proper hand position. The nut end of the fingerboard should be in line with the chin of the scroll so that the first finger isn’t having to compress too much for half position. This detail is sometimes forgotten, and it has an immediately noticeable effect.

If you’re dealing with an instrument that’s under full size, the measurements should be proportionally smaller. One of the hallmarks of great violin making is a careful consideration of proportion, not specific numbers. Cremonese violins are not standardized in ruler measurements, but they do tend to follow ratios that help them to perform especially well and feel comfortable to players.

Strabo - Posted - 07/07/2025:  07:12:42

Here’s the other side of this: Why is it difficult for me to adjust my playing mechanics to the physical characteristics of a specific instrument?

After all, I can easily adapt to different bicycles, with different frame sizes, handlebar heights, etc. Same for different cars. Very little effort or attention is required to operate reasonably well.

The obvious explanation is that I’m not that great of a fiddler. I guess that Itzhak Perlman or Darol Anger could quickly adjust to an oddly set up instrument. Maybe I should dig in and grind, grind, grind until I can play that loaner easily and accurately.

On the other hand, maybe I did the right thing and now I can play, play, play...

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/07/2025:  08:05:14

That may be a good limitation in a way, if it means your intonation is very accurate in the scale you are used to. I've found I don't have too much trouble switching to a viola. I don't play that much but when I do it isn't too much adjustment. Going to a slightly smaller scale might be harder though because the violin already puts fingers close together. Smaller increments are harder to hit accurately.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/07/2025:  11:04:21

quote:

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Originally posted by Strabo

Here’s the other side of this: Why is it difficult for me to adjust my playing mechanics to the physical characteristics of a specific instrument?



After all, I can easily adapt to different bicycles, with different frame sizes, handlebar heights, etc. Same for different cars. Very little effort or attention is required to operate reasonably well.



The obvious explanation is that I’m not that great of a fiddler. I guess that Itzhak Perlman or Darol Anger could quickly adjust to an oddly set up instrument. Maybe I should dig in and grind, grind, grind until I can play that loaner easily and accurately.



On the other hand, maybe I did the right thing and now I can play, play, play...

---

I think the idea that great players can do great things with mediocre instruments can be a little misleading. It's true that a very skilled player can overcome limitations, but that's not due to familiarity with differently set-up instruments, it's the result of finely developed technique. Playing a variety of violins is helpful to players for becoming acquainted with other violins easily, but that's really down to tonal character more than eccentric setup. The violin is a tricky instrument to play to begin with, and seemingly small differences can have gigantic impact.

There's a reason why the best violin players tend to play the best violins in the world. They may demonstrate their abilities on cheap instruments occasionally to teach students not to hang their hats on violins instead of learning how to play them well, but they use the best instruments they can obtain for their careers because they want to make use of every opportunity available to them.

Among the fiddling community there's a certain reverence for mediocre instruments and a mistaken assumption that they are some sort of badge of honor for players who are able to work around their deficiencies to get a passable sound. The fiddles that belonged to famous fiddlers are given a certain reverence, in spite of simply being the best options available to those players when they were in need of instruments in areas where violins were not widely available. While many remark on how impressive it was that these famous players were able to get a tolerable sound out of them, there are some who believe that these mediocre instruments with all their quirks and poor repairs are actually better than the instruments made by great or even good makers, and the secret to a real Old-Time sound is to find the cheapest, most abused instrument available from the most questionable source possible. This fanaticism for the mediocre is really no different from the fanaticism for the great makers because it involves the same faulty conclusion that the instrument is the secret to playing ability, it's just that the envisioned path to success is in mirrored image.

Perlman and Anger might both be able to work around poor setups, but that isn't what makes them successful players. It's having something to say with the violin.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/07/2025:  13:00:33

Different string height, tension and relief can also be factor affecting fingering, feel/touch, response and intonation.

Why is it difficult for me to adjust my playing mechanics to the physical characteristics of a specific instrument?

One thing that could account for it is approach focused on kinesthetic or tactile memorizing. Similar to the idea of tape, burn in long term muscle memory. This can also show up in struggle with shifting, it requires adjusting fingers to shorter scale. Might shift focus to using the ear to guide feedback, let the fingers to make micro adjustments, just short term. Do that first thing every time pick up an instrument. 

But it's not just fingering distance that might have been memorized, and difficult to adjust. Overall adjustment to different physical characteristics, set-up occurs in other instruments as well; somewhat normal when playing another's instrument, feel/touch and sound/tone different than what used to; esp if really only play one specific instrument. For example, guitar might have different length/scale, fret height, nut width, gauge strings, neck profile, relief, and tone. Need to take time adjust to the instrument/setup; including the right hand (for response and tone). It can help, to have process, run over some exercises with goal to make those adjustments and settle in. Like riding a bike, listen/feel feedback, and let body adjust. I think becomes quicker process to adjust and settle in with experience, more often have to deal with slightly different set-ups.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 07/07/2025 13:08:06

DougD - Posted - 07/07/2025:  13:28:59

"Among the fiddling community there's a certain reverence for mediocre instruments and a mistaken assumption that they are some sort of badge of honor for players who are able to work around their deficiencies to get a passable sound."
I don't think this is true, at least in my experience. I don't spend much time asking people about their instruments, and very rarely play other people's violins, but the best fiddle players I know play pretty good to excellent instruments, for the same reasons classical players do. They want to sound as good as possible, and don't want to be hindered by technical limitations.

Edited by - DougD on 07/07/2025 13:40:05

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/07/2025:  19:40:15

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

"Among the fiddling community there's a certain reverence for mediocre instruments and a mistaken assumption that they are some sort of badge of honor for players who are able to work around their deficiencies to get a passable sound."

I don't think this is true, at least in my experience. I don't spend much time asking people about their instruments, and very rarely play other people's violins, but the best fiddle players I know play pretty good to excellent instruments, for the same reasons classical players do. They want to sound as good as possible, and don't want to be hindered by technical limitations.

---

You should see some of the violins. If you're not paying a lot of attention to the instruments being used, it's no surprise that you're not aware. While it's true that there are some fiddlers that play excellent instruments (I've mentioned some previously), it's not necessarily the case that all or even the majority of the most popular players do so. One of Tommy Jarrell's fiddles is in a musuem, another is visible and audible in a documentary where Jarrell recounts the story of its aleged damage in the Civil War and the atrocious repair done including a copper plate nailed over the fingerboard. Even on this forum there are a number of discussions where posters have boasted about how little they paid for their instruments and have disparaged the idea of paying anything more than flea market prices for a violin to be used for Old Time. This kind of attitude is what causes some violin shops to become bitter toward fiddlers and to see their visits as a waste of time.

Fiddlers looking for an instrument to purchase will often seek out the most mangled instruments because there's an assumption that the more worn, damaged, and repaired an instrument has been, the better it must be. The idea is that only good violins are loved enough by various owners to invest in their repair (despite the fact that a lot of the work is DIY and actually ruins the integrity and value of the instrument). The truth is that violins are repaired for a wide variety of reasons, sometimes simply for sentimental purposes. The quality of the work is some indication of the devotion to the instrument and to taking proper care of it, but it does not guarantee its quality.

A lot of recordings have been made with instruments that are clearly causing technical limitations (and that's not even getting into the tonal problems). It can be downright frustrating to listen to a player and realize that the instrument is not doing what it should. This reminds me of a cello concert I attended a year or two ago. The players were all quite accomplished, but their ensemble didn't work well at all because one had a cello that was so powerful that it overpowered everyone else if the player didn't hold it back constantly, one cello was very poorly adjusted and out of balance, one was so weak that it struggled to project even in a small performance space, and one was being borrowed from a shop and the player was clearly struggling to adjust to playing it. There was very good playing technique, but it wasn't enough to make up for the complete mismatch of the instruments, and the whole concert just seemed like a desperate attempt to find a meeting place. It was such a shame because it could have come off so nicely had the instruments been more carefully selected.

wrench13 - Posted - 07/08/2025:  04:11:21

Maybe unusual, but I ask to try almost every fiddle I encounter, letting the other fiddler try mine if they want. If it sounds good to me I want to see if I can raise the same level of sound from it, explore what I can dig out of it. If its not a particularly good sounding one, I like to see if my impression is correct and maybe show what the fiddle is capable of. All taking into consideration my own limitations and bad habits. And fiddles change! I played a Wurlitzer fiddle like 25 years ago, it was wonderful, in fact I offered to buy it on the spot and gave the owner an open ended offer should he ever decide to sell it. Scroll forward and I recently played it again. The fiddle had gone thru some rough times - water damage, finish destroyed in spots and general poor upkeep had really diminished the poor thing, and I wouldn't think of offering even a modest amount for it.

I played what I was told was a fine Italian fiddle recently too. The fiddler, classically trained, was able to get some sweet sound from it; not a lot of power, but delicate, especially in the upper register. When I tried it, I found it totally unsuited to my playing, which is more 1st position, double stop heavy and more dynamic. I didn't like it. Didnt get a chance to compare setups but likely they were close, I keep my fiddle as close to standard classical set up as possible. ALl my fiddles are set up like that. I figure why fight against things you can control, like set up. Back when I was playing in a C&W band with an electric fiddle and also with a BG band, I had t switch between electric and acoustic fiddles often. Even with making sure they were close in set up, it took 10 minutes or so of warm up to get re-acclimated to each, and thats aside from the widely different attack each required.

Switching from a full size to a 7/8, thats got to be difficult. When I switch to viola, I can mentally reposition fingers reasonably well. But making that minute adjustment to a 7/8, I think that would screw me up quite a bit.

Strabo - Posted - 07/08/2025:  05:28:14

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

One thing that could account for it is approach focused on kinesthetic or tactile memorizing. Similar to the idea of tape, burn in long term muscle memory. This can also show up in struggle with shifting, it requires adjusting fingers to shorter scale. Might shift focus to using the ear to guide feedback, let the fingers to make micro adjustments, just short term. Do that first thing every time pick up an instrument. 

---

Yes, for me it's important to settle into the correct kinesthetics, guided by the ear.

I find that a few arpeggios usually get me on track so that I can then play reasonably accurately without thinking about it. But when I get rushed and short-circuit the warm-up, my playing is less accurate, less comfortable, less intuitive and not as fun.