pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/30/2025:  15:58:01

i fed my intended original post into AI and asked it to re-word it, here's what it came up with:

Here's how I'd reword that forum post, aiming for clarity, conciseness, and a more structured argument, while retaining the original sentiment:

The Problem with "Expert" Waffling and Information Dissemination

I'm increasingly frustrated by the way information is presented, especially when it comes from so-called "experts." It often feels like an attempt to obfuscate simple facts with overly elaborate explanations, or to "wriggle out" of misinterpretations of measurable data. A fact should remain a fact until it's definitively disproven, not just because an "expert" offers a convoluted alternative.

This method of disseminating information is particularly tiresome now. With AI becoming a global and general consensus of opinion, we should be moving towards clearer, more direct communication. While AI isn't perfect – it's certainly influenced by algorithms designed to sell you things like car insurance – it highlights the potential for more objective information.

I've even got an anecdote that perfectly illustrates my point: it's like someone trying to distract you with a "silly monkey" while telling you to "look into my eyes, not around the eyes." It feels less like education and more like a manipulative trick.

Me: i suppose i could have asked it how it would counter that argument ...but i couldn't be bothered.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/30/2025:  16:14:28

i also asked it to re-write the post in the style of lord Byron, i won't bore you with the output, but it was most eloquent.

fiddler135 - Posted - 06/30/2025:  17:10:15

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

I play mostly Irish Trad tunes, some Scottish…but they are not really double-stop-heavy genres.



However I heard that a flatter bridge can give you a warmer sound, and make for easier (lower-effort) string crossings? That all sounds like something I’d like…!



1. Is the above ‘word of mouth’ true?

2. Is it expensive?



Once I have a flatter bridge, am I gonna keep hitting 2 strings at once when I don’t want to?



Wondering!

Thanks! :-)

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It helps with triple stops, and is comfortable if you're used to it, but you have to bow very straight to not scrub the adjoining string if you're on the D or A. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 06/30/2025:  18:41:03

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

"Pete,



You really need to do some reading up on what happens to wood over time" Eh?...lol



RE: longitudinal shrinkage



From green fresh cut, to 0% moisture about 0.1% longitudinal shrinkage occurs on average. What is that on a 1ft long board which is already seasoned to suit it's required use, and undergoes limited humidity changes ?



your sound post trick mentioned earlier, works because the cells in the wood of the top and back expand with the water you just put on put on it. Not the sound post growing longer.

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You missed the point about the soundpost. You were trying to suggest that wood just goes to whatever moisture content the atmosphere possesses, and that the woodm's moisture is permanently in flux. This is not the case, and it is why the wood will stabilize to a lower level even if it's been completely inundated.

The soundpost trick is just a quick way to get a soundpost to swell enough to stay standing.  As you said, the cells absorb moisture and swell up, tightening the fit. A little while later the moisture is released and the post shrinks back down. That's exactly my point--it doesn't stay longer.

I'm not presenting this information as though it's my own opinion. This comes from learning from some of the best restorers in the world, reading scientific articles about wood, and reading historical articles about violins. If I'm presenting an opinion of my own I'm careful to identify it as such.

Here is some more information:

maestronet.com/forum/index.php...d-models/

 

jwoodscience.springeropen.com/...480-z.pdf

researchgate.net/publication/3...e_of_Wood

And just for good measure , an article that explains that hide glue doesn't creep while PVA does. PVA is also not "stronger than wood." If you have much experience in working with wood this is elementary knowledge.

blog.lddavis.com/hide-glue-str...20States.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/01/2025:  02:17:40

Rich: i think you missed my point that wood shrinks and expands with changes in humidity but hardly at all longitudinally. So the post cannot shrink back down as you say, because it hasn't grown any longer, (maybe microscopically). it is acting as a wick. The wood of the top and the back has expanded locally where it is wet. Then it dries and the post is released, which proves the point that wood is in a state of flux with changes in moisture content, including atmospheric humidity. 

Just as a fiddle top cannot grow longer, (maybe minisculely) . But it can grow wider, narrower and proportionally thicker or thinner with changes in humidity.

ps i accept that the wavy grained sycamore used for the back may act a little differently.

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 07/01/2025 02:23:07

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/01/2025:  03:23:41

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Rich: i think you missed my point that wood shrinks and expands with changes in humidity but hardly at all longitudinally. So the post cannot shrink back down as you say, because it hasn't grown any longer, (maybe microscopically). it is acting as a wick. The wood of the top and the back has expanded locally where it is wet. Then it dries and the post is released, which proves the point that wood is in a state of flux with changes in moisture content, including atmospheric humidity. 

Just as a fiddle top cannot grow longer, (maybe minisculely) . But it can grow wider, narrower and proportionally thicker or thinner with changes in humidity.

ps i accept that the wavy grained sycamore used for the back may act a little differently.

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Again, this is wrong. The post does swell and become slightly longer. It's not the top and back swelling up to the post. You can observe this with the eye as the ends of the post become both longer and wider. The fibers at the end of the post will expand as they draw in water, so the ends will also fit just a little more tightly going back into the ff. Also, while the post may be wet at its extremities, the top and back are not necessarily drawing in much or any water, especially considering that the post doesn't sit on endgrain. Endgrain is like a sponge and absorbs far more water.

Incidentally, the same thing happens with blocks. When you make a new one, it's important to do a thing called sizing, where the block is brushed with glue and then allowed to sit for a while.  Violin makers are taught to do this as an important part of making a block to keep it healthy for the future. The addition of glue to the exposed endgrain will cause the block to swell so that it becomes taller than the ribs, even though it has been planed perfectly flush. As the glue dries, the block can end up taller permanently (because the hardening of the glue prevents the block from shrinking as it dries), so it may need to be cut back down. Sizing continues until the grain no longer wicks in glue and expands. Failure to do his can cause damage to the violin. Occasionally one will come across violins that have come apart because of this. When the top is first put on, the joint closes, but the pressure from the block as it swells into the top is great enough that it splits the wood or deforms it. I am currently restoring an old German violin for a customer that had this problem. Both top and back ended up heavily distorted in the area. In addition to this, the block split in half and the ribs buckled and twisted. I've had to get the plates unwarped, shorten one side of the bottom ribs, make a new block, and remove the warpage in the ribs.

 Longitudinal growth is negligible for the lumber industry, but that is not the case in violin making. Again, violins are being made with attention to fractions of a millimeter, and shrinkage that seems insignificant in a board is much more important in a violin. 

 

According to a quick Google search:

• Thin sections may exhibit slightly greater longitudinal shrinkage than thicker, sawn wood. Studies have shown that very thin sections (e.g., 40 μm) can have greater longitudinal shrinkage compared to thicker sawn wood.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/01/2025:  04:23:40

Rich, your getting down to cellular level with 40/1000ths of a millimeter.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/01/2025:  06:47:21

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Rich, your getting down to cellular level with 40/1000ths of a millimeter.

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I added this because it was suggested that I had made this claim up from my own opinion without any factual basis. That was not the case. When I write my posts, I often spend as much or more time checking for accuracy and researching as I do writing.

The fact remains that wood is hygroscopic, so the addition of water will cause swelling in the short term. Natural drying causes the wood to be less hygroscopic over a long period of time. After centuries, tops end up shorter, sometimes by as much as a millimeter or two, which is enough to necessitate work on an instrument to maintain its integrity. Spruce is a perfect wood for violin making, but that doesn't mean that it can't undergo changes. 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/01/2025:  08:06:23

assuming that a 12"x 8" board 2mm thick was dried from 30% mc to 0% mc, (wow! that would be a worse case scenario)



a 1-foot long spruce board (assuming normal wood) would shrink approximately 0.024 inches longitudinally when drying from 30% moisture content to 0% moisture content.



This is a very small amount, less than 1/32 of an inch.

about half a milimeter

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 07/01/2025 08:07:50

NCnotes - Posted - 07/01/2025:  09:56:49

Er, well, I played outside in the park in the spring, and it started raining lightly. We were in the picnic shelter with roof, so it was fine and we kept playing - the air just felt damp.

The next day I noticed that my bridge had twisted/flopped over a bit! I thought I was gonna need a new bridge! But he straightened the bridge and popped it back in quickly. I asked him how he unwarped it, and he said he soaked it in water!?

So wood + water is so interesting.
But I decided not to play outside in high humidity again …

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/01/2025:  10:03:35

To dry a board to 0% moisture, the only way I can see that happening is in a kiln. Wood for violin making is not supposed to be kiln dried because the kiln changes the chemical structure of the wood in addition to drying it out.

The kind of testing here is based on mechanically reducing moisture and measuring, but that’s not exactly how it works with air-dried wood over hundreds of years. In the Maestronet post I linked above, Michael Darnton talks about seeing lots of old Italian instruments come to the U.S. and experience plate shrinkage, requiring the ribs to be shortened. His example was much more extreme, because the changes were occurring in a short timespan after being much more stable in a temperate climate previously. Perhaps if violins were actually kept in perfectly museum-controlled conditions, the plate shrinkage would be truly negligible, but the reality is that violins are tools in everyday use and they undergo significant changes over the long run.

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/01/2025:  15:31:55

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

To dry a board to 0% moisture, the only way I can see that happening is in a kiln. 

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I don't know where anything about wood dried to 0% moisture came from. I missed that post. Spruce for violins is air dried for up to a few years before being used to make tops. By that time the wood is stable. Thereafter there will be minimal seasonal changes relating to humidity but no longer will the wood continue to dry out. Any dimensional change that might occur over decades or hundreds of years will be chemical  changes in the wood structure itself, not further loss of hydration. Changes in the length of a piece of spruce are negligible while changes in the width can occur and cause problems. When ribs need to be shortened it will be because of changes across the grain of the top (and back). 

Not sure how this thread ended up here when it started about flattening bridge arches. I like the ongoing conversations we're getting, though. The hangout has livened up a little bit recently. I'm for that.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/01/2025:  16:16:37

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

Spruce for violins is air dried for up to a few years before being used to make tops. By that time the wood is stable. Thereafter there will be minimal seasonal changes relating to humidity but no longer will the wood continue to dry out. Any dimensional change that might occur over decades or hundreds of years will be chemical  changes in the wood structure itself, not further loss of hydration. Changes in the length of a piece of spruce are negligible while changes in the width can occur and cause problems. When ribs need to be shortened it will be because of changes across the grain of the top (and back). 

 

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Yes, air drying over several years mimimum is supposed to be the method for processing wood, although it doesn't always happen. The studies on shrinkage are done on lumber, though, and to facilitate quick testing, the wood is artificially dried out as I understand it.

I don't understand how one can reasonably make the argument that the wood doesn't dry out over time. This is observable in both the long term and the short term. I also don't know how one arrives at the conclusion that ribs bulge because of horizontal shrinkage when the ribs bulge out at the bottom near the block and at the endgrain runout, not typically at the sides. When ribs are shortened, it's done at the bottom block, not at the corners.

The reason we've gone down this road is that it was suggested that changing the projection should not be done because wood is in constant flux and therefore projection will never stabilize. Although projection can fluctuate with climate, that doesn't mean that a neck reset is necessarily unstable and a waste of time. If maintained well, the projection will stay the same indefinitely. From there it turned into a discussion about the effects of age on wood and whether it actually changes structure or not. 

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/02/2025:  08:56:01

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

I don't understand how one can reasonably make the argument that the wood doesn't dry out over time. This is observable in both the long term and the short term. I also don't know how one arrives at the conclusion that ribs bulge because of horizontal shrinkage when the ribs bulge out at the bottom near the block and at the endgrain runout, not typically at the sides. When ribs are shortened, it's done at the bottom block, not at the corners.

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There's no reason for wood to dry out below ambient conditions after it has fully air dried. Moisture content will vary slightly with seasonal changes. I have seen ribs bulge near the bottom, and that is curious. I haven't seen the bulge at the very end however, but to one side or the other of the end block, which is your observation too. It is most easily explained by movement across the grain of the top coupled with the grain in the block, the same issue that causes saddle cracks.