tonyelder - Posted - 04/26/2025:  09:25:56

When I was younger (20 - 30) I enjoyed smoking "wacki tabacci" for recreation, For a number of different reasons - I quit.

Through the years - I've enjoyed having a drink, ...sometimes more than I should have. But never addicted.

...anyway, the point: As I've gotten older, I'm having more problems with insomnia - sometimes it has been a big problem (work).

A friend told me about Melatonin, seemed to help. But then I discovered that more is not better, and there is a problem when your body starts thinking: "Ah, I don't need to make that stuff - looks like there is plenty already." And then - there ain't none when you stop taking it. hmmmmm

A shot at night helps, but that's not really a healthy way to approach the problem.

And now there is several ads on facebook - claiming their "product" (gummy CBD) will help you get to sleep - and 2 of them will help you "enjoy" yourself before you go to sleep. It's legal. And I know from experience - that THC is not nearly as destructive "in life" as alcohol. Yes, I know - that doesn't mean it is safe or without risk. I understand.

So, question is - has anyone tried it? ...your thoughts? I'm thinking of trying it.

wrench13 - Posted - 04/26/2025:  13:09:21

My Doc gives me Doxepin for a sleep aid, works great. 50mg

ChickenMan - Posted - 04/26/2025:  14:42:54

I know people who swear by it (CBD) and when I was at Clifftop last year I was given some CBD ointment for my thumb arthritis and it relieved my pain within the hour.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 04/26/2025:  14:50:45

What I do when I can't sleep and my mind is 'on a roll' is to focus my attention to the 'here and now' and set aside all thoughts (although that is hard ) and with a quiet mind is quickly fall asleep..

DougD - Posted - 04/26/2025:  15:51:24

The VA/TN state line runs down State St. here in Bristol. VA has liberalized their cannabis laws, and that side of the street hosts several "head shops," and their products are all over the place these days. From my very limited experience, I'd guess a "gummy" might well help with insomnia, but it might depend a lot on the individual.
Personally, my favorite sleep aid is a cup of Celestial Seasonings "Sleepytime" tea with honey. I'm sure its all in my head, but the sight of the bear in his nightcap makes me want to join him.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 04/26/2025:  18:23:17

My feeling would be Doug's little bear in his nightcap is the best option...lol.

buckhenry - Posted - 04/26/2025:  18:40:33

This week I need to renew my CBD oil script, I wont buy gummies from internet.

It reduces inflammation and helps me sleep, but I still practice the 'here and now'.

Mostly it improves mood and energy levels which motivates me to practice fiddle for hours.

But that's how it effects me, others might be different.

NCnotes - Posted - 04/26/2025:  21:21:13

Haven’t tried it, but lately I use a trick my friend taught me…

‘Think about 5 things you hear. Think of 5 things you see. Think of 5 things you feel. Etc….’
I never make it to the end of the list!

The other thing I do is start mentally listing each thing I ate that day, and classifying them into food groups…I never make it to the end of that either. (I don’t really eat that much, haha).

I also used to do the thing where you relax each muscle of your body, one by one…

Strabo - Posted - 04/27/2025:  05:05:22

A while back I noticed that I “see” things in my mind when I’m just falling asleep. There’s nothing significant about the images that float through my consciousness at that time -- they seem to be random images that come and go quite quickly.

So at times that I wanted to go to sleep I started trying to conjure up some metal images. I didn’t want to make it too interesting or stimulating so I kept it simple, visualizing numbers or letters. My go-to strategy is to let my eyes follow the contours of numbers: 9...8...7...etc. Most often I drift off before I get to 1.

My fav is “8”. I seem to like letting my eyes roll around the two round circles of that number. Yeh, I know it’s a little strange...

I also notice that my breathing slows down as I do the visualization. I believe that sleeping people breathe slowly (dunno if that’s really true) and I have heard that some people deliberately try to slow their breathing, mimicking the sleeping pattern. I tried that, but it didn’t do much for me.

All this is mildly weird, but visualizing the shape of numbers does seem to work for me...

Also, my wife thinks that peanut butter contains some super sleep-inducing ingredient. So, when all else fails, a little shot of PB might be just the ticket...

TuneWeaver - Posted - 04/27/2025:  05:18:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Strabo

A while back I noticed that I “see” things in my mind when I’m just falling asleep. There’s nothing significant about the images that float through my consciousness at that time -- they seem to be random images that come and go quite quickly.



So at times that I wanted to go to sleep I started trying to conjure up some metal images. I didn’t want to make it too interesting or stimulating so I kept it simple, visualizing numbers or letters. My go-to strategy is to let my eyes follow the contours of numbers: 9...8...7...etc. Most often I drift off before I get to 1.



My fav is “8”. I seem to like letting my eyes roll around the two round circles of that number. Yeh, I know it’s a little strange...



I also notice that my breathing slows down as I do the visualization. I believe that sleeping people breathe slowly (dunno if that’s really true) and I have heard that some people deliberately try to slow their breathing, mimicking the sleeping pattern. I tried that, but it didn’t do much for me.



All this is mildly weird, but visualizing the shape of numbers does seem to work for me...



Also, my wife thinks that peanut butter contains some super sleep-inducing ingredient. So, when all else fails, a little shot of PB might be just the ticket...

---

"YES" about the peanut butter..

tonyelder - Posted - 04/27/2025:  06:20:02

OK. The suggestions about "stilling the mind" is good, but... some nights I struggle with this more than others. There are nights that pass - and I can't really say that I sleep at all. It was more like lying still and getting physical rest without sleeping - maybe dozing off here an there - but then being made aware that I'm not sleeping but just lying still. The next day I'm rested physically, but mentally I can tell.

Peanut butter... ha, well... my latest late night craving is to put extra crunchy peanut butter on a Chips Ahoy extra chocolate chip cookie. It sure satisfies the craving - but not sure if it has really done much as a sleep aid. Never thought of it.

I guess I need to talk with the Doc. I've mentioned this to him once before. He was the one that told me about the problem with Melatonin, and offered to write a prescription. I said no - didn't want to be taking more pills. And I'm reluctant to talk about CBD - I guess becasue of what it might imply.

Friends are swearing by their medical marijuana. But I just want to get a good night sleep - regularly.

Quincy - Posted - 04/27/2025:  07:28:27

I' don't know about law in your state but I'd search for a grower who has a strain with plenty of CBD and a really low amount of THC preferably a strain with lots of indica genes,  as an indica is still percepted by most recreational users to have more of an effect on body than mind (heavy limbs and a cozy feeling wanting you to lay down and just take a nap) You could safely use it to make some oil with which can be consumed in several possible ways without having to inhale any smoke , or butter so you can make edibles (other processes are possible as well) The amount of THC should be very low if you are not used to it. I think around 3-5 % maybe should do the trick. Some studies have found that CBD reduces the risk on unwanted effects of THC like a bit paranoid thoughts.

I am with the people who swear by medical marijuana, as these medical strains are often exactly like I described.

When it's too commercial , you can only guess and hope it's the real thing and not some synthetic rubbish product.

Edited by - Quincy on 04/27/2025 07:37:55

Quincy - Posted - 04/27/2025:  07:51:40

Other thoughts : self hypnosis . I one day read a book that guided you through the making of an audio tape (best is to let someone with a neutral voice do the job , listening to your own voice can be distracting as I found out). It started off with a certain breathing technique where you focus on your chest , each time you inhale you think about how you 'push away' all daily stress with the movement of your chest  and when you exhale you focus on letting in calm thoughts. Then the text went on with starting to make your whole body feel heavy and cozy, starting with the tips of your toes all the way to the top of your head and then there was a switch to focus on how that heavy feeling becomes a very light weight feeling. It takes some practice, but I use this method when I am sleepless ...

Edited by - Quincy on 04/27/2025 07:53:39

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 04/27/2025:  10:59:11

I guess I should put more effort into falling asleep...which I don't do very well...my mind races about all the wrong decisions I made during the day...how unqualified I am to engage in anything I must try to do, about how I wish we lived close to friends, etc. etc. etc. Nighttime is the only time I can let my mind worry as it needs to do...during the day I have to try my best to act happy. Lol...sometimes you need the dark and quiet to let all that worry and doubt come out.

I have read though, that if you turn off lights, screens, etc. a while before going to bed your body will respond by making its own melatonin. Don't know if it works...I'm not in a position where I even have that much control over stuff.

Anyway, without enough worry time, I feel I could just pop...sometimes I feel that way anyway. I think I'm used to lack of sleep. The exhaustion doesn't bother me nearly as much as being full of emotions that have no escape route...that really, really bothers me.

Old Scratch - Posted - 04/27/2025:  12:28:25

I have my laptop by the bed; I put on some fiddle music that's not going to play all night, put the screen down to the dimmest setting, put my head on the pillow, and I'm asleep. Sometimes I'll wake up in the wee small hours of the morning; then I put on the radio and listen to some documentary from Australia or Ireland that CBC plays at that time, and if I don't fall back to sleep, I at least will learn something about politics in Africa or a medical discovery in Siberia or ........ zzzzzzzzz ........

Edited by - Old Scratch on 04/27/2025 12:34:28

tonyelder - Posted - 04/27/2025:  12:42:12

For me - the room has to be dark, cool, quiet - except for a box fan that provides "white noise" - which is more important for me that air movement. I will have wandering thoughts - all kinds of thoughts. But if it starts getting too late - I try to discipline myself to be quiet mentally, lay flat on my back,  and at least get physical rest - even if I can't get to sleep.

A regular sleep cycle is important for good health.  And it needs to be a deep restful sleep, not a light "disturbing" sleep.



I'm sure a lot of this has to do with sleep apnea too. But I can't sleep with a mask and the added noise.



HA... and I will confess that sometimes - the key to falling to sleep is praying / meditating. I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes I will fall asleep before the "amen" comes around.      

TuneWeaver - Posted - 04/27/2025:  13:32:25

One of my super powers is the ability to take a Power Nap whenever/wherever I want. I read that a short daily nap for us oldsters is good for our health and that it should not keep us from sleeping at night.. That is true for me it seems..It is probably that there are as many reasons for good-sleep/bad-sleep as there are people!!! ..no magic bullet for most.

ChickenMan - Posted - 04/27/2025:  15:21:08

I used to try to sleep in my back but have post nasal drip so bad that I'll start with little niggling coughs and just can't fall asleep that way (unless it is the infrequent alcohol induced slumber). For decades I slept mostly on my right side. Since my divorce and having a bed to myself (and the overly warm dog), I sleep mostly on my left. And aside from the dog overheating me occasionally, I sleep better than ever. Go figure.



I have a hard time turning off the music in my head. What I do these days is put music on that I like (Irish trad mostly) that is barely audible over the fan (white noise for the win) and that seems to help. I listen to Clare FM rebroadcasts which are a couple hours long and they have an archive. There's a DJ who speaks in both English and Irish but mostly it's about having that song in my head, from dance gig or band practice, whatever, be over written with the new music. And because I'm not really actively listening, this seems to work for me. YMMV

Often, I'm asleep before the opening few tunes are done and the DJ comes on. 

Edited by - ChickenMan on 04/27/2025 15:22:57

buckhenry - Posted - 04/27/2025:  16:14:26

When I focus on my breath I cant dwell on wondering thoughts. The thoughts always return, but that's my cue to re-focus on the breath. I also do this when on my daily walk. There are many aspects to the breath to focus on.

ChickenMan - Posted - 04/27/2025:  16:18:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

When I focus on my breath I cant dwell on wondering thoughts. The thoughts always return, but that's my cue to re-focus on the breath. I also do this when on my daily walk. There are many aspects to the breath to focus on.

---

I do this during my waking hours to quiet the never ending stream of music in my head. It's less effective at bedtime for some reason. Probably because much of my practice time is in the evenings and I like to let that linger so it sinks in 

buckhenry - Posted - 04/27/2025:  18:20:53

music in my head

This is one of the '5 things' NC mentioned to hear.

Loid_W - Posted - 06/05/2025:  14:26:13

I was in the same boat with melatonin - it worked for a while but then lost its effect. Recently, I tried CBD gummies from this store: joyorganics.com/blogs/news/top...-products , and they really help me relax before bedtime without any morning grogginess. They offer some strong, high-potency options that worked better for me than most products I’ve tried. No psychoactive effects, just calm and relaxation.

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/05/2025:  17:43:29

I use a CBD balm for my arthritis, Jorma Kaukonen endorses It / sells it. It works better for me than Diclofenac as a topical (I do take that as a pill when my hip is really flaring up). I get it bad in my right thumb and gave up guitar for about 15 years due to the pain playing caused. Recently changed how I hold the pick and purchased this balm (shout out to FHO member Bandsmcnamar for letting me try it while we were at Clifftop) and have played enough now that I've developed light calluses on my ring and picky fingers. Best thing to happen since I learned to play fiddle; I played guitar for nearly 40 years before the time off and have missed it greatly.

tonyelder - Posted - 06/05/2025:  18:57:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Loid_W

I was in the same boat with melatonin - it worked for a while but then lost its effect. Recently, I tried CBD gummies from this store: joyorganics.com/blogs/news/top...-products , and they really help me relax before bedtime without any morning grogginess. They offer some strong, high-potency options that worked better for me than most products I’ve tried. No psychoactive effects, just calm and relaxation.

---

whew -we... I definitely believe in  quality control for products on the market, but...  man, I'm not sure I need a good night sleep[ that bad.  

I might eventually change my mind. ...and I'm glad it is "out there". 

tonyelder - Posted - 06/05/2025:  20:18:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

I use a CBD balm for my arthritis, Jorma Kaukonen endorses It / sells it. It works better for me than Diclofenac as a topical (I do take that as a pill when my hip is really flaring up). I get it bad in my right thumb and gave up guitar for about 15 years due to the pain playing caused. Recently changed how I hold the pick and purchased this balm (shout out to FHO member Bandsmcnamar for letting me try it while we were at Clifftop) and have played enough now that I've developed light calluses on my ring and picky fingers. Best thing to happen since I learned to play fiddle; I played guitar for nearly 40 years before the time off and have missed it greatly.

---

Encouraging.  Thanks. 

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/06/2025:  11:24:16

I realized I mentioned this previously. It was probably that mention which prompted my to order it. Comes it several strengths, I went with the strongest that was available in a stick form. It has me playing guitar again and that is a blessing.

Jorma's Choice

Edited by - ChickenMan on 06/06/2025 11:26:29

Loup - Posted - 06/06/2025:  12:26:34

quote:This is yoga deep breathing,anexcellent breathing practice that I use also to divert any negativities that arise in my mind.Chickenman your'e on the right track.Originally posted by ChickenManquote:Originally posted by buckhenryWhen I focus on my breath I cant dwell on wondering thoughts. The thoughts always return, but that's my cue to re-focus on the breath. I also do this when on my daily walk. There are many aspects to the breath to focus on.I do this during my waking hours to quiet the never ending stream of music in my head. It's less effective at bedtime for some reason. Probably because much of my practice time is in the evenings and I like to let that linger so it sinks in

tonyelder - Posted - 06/18/2025:  16:13:53

I have a slightly off-center follow up... I found a weed in the garden. A sneaky rascal because it is biennial and this is its second year. And I never noticed it. What does this have to do with insomnia? It is wild lettuce - specifically "Lactuca canadensis", commonly known as Canada wild lettuce or Canada lettuce. It is native to almost all of the US. And yes, it is considered to be a weed by most.

BUT - a herbalist will tell you that this is no ordinary weed. When handled / processed right it has some very interesting qualities as a sleep aid (sedative) and pain killer. Has anyone had any experience with this?

I'll see my Primary Care Physician tomorrow morning. I'll be talking to him about this and the CBD. MS doesn't allow most of the CBD that is sold online to be purchased in MS without a script. (BTW - the extract for wild lettuce can be bought (expensive), and it is perfectly legal to cultivate and use).

I'm hopeful

farmerjones - Posted - 06/18/2025:  17:05:04

Prayers going out to you Tony.
I know sleep deprivation is a form of torture.
BTW - 6 years retired, I still have problem solver/troubleshooter dreams. I embrace it. Don't know if it's right or wrong?

DougD - Posted - 06/18/2025:  17:11:30

Tony, is that the plant sometimes referred to as "mountain opium?" Its been discussed around here lately.

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/18/2025:  18:17:44

Based on this Wikipedia about Canadian Wild Lettuce, it has the same sort of properties due to its milky sap (lactucarium), or it is the sap, not sure which as this is the only reference to lettuce-opium in the article. The elongated variety is the one called Canadian wild lettuce.



"Although the standard definition of lactucarium requires its production from Lactuca virosa, it was recognized that smaller quantities of lactucarium could be produced in a similar way from Lactuca sativa and Lactuca canadensis var. elongata, and even that lettuce-opium obtained from Lactuca serriola or Lactuca quercina was of superior quality."

Edited by - ChickenMan on 06/18/2025 18:19:02

tonyelder - Posted - 06/18/2025:  18:53:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Tony, is that the plant sometimes referred to as "mountain opium?" Its been discussed around here lately.

---

I've heard a similar "folk name" given to it - "opium lettuce". But that is a misnomer - it does not have any opioids.  It might be the same, but I missed the conversation so I don't really know.

Where was it at?  I'd like to read through it. Thanks.

Edited by - tonyelder on 06/18/2025 19:07:22

tonyelder - Posted - 06/18/2025:  19:04:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Based on this Wikipedia about Canadian Wild Lettuce, it has the same sort of properties due to its milky sap (lactucarium), or it is the sap, not sure which as this is the only reference to lettuce-opium in the article. The elongated variety is the one called Canadian wild lettuce.



"Although the standard definition of lactucarium requires its production from Lactuca virosa, it was recognized that smaller quantities of lactucarium could be produced in a similar way from Lactuca sativa and Lactuca canadensis var. elongata, and even that lettuce-opium obtained from Lactuca serriola or Lactuca quercina was of superior quality."

---

Yes, that's it. I've watched SEVERAL video's now, read a number of articles (med sites), and carried on an extended conversation with "Copilot" to run through different ideas - to see how they would be evaluated.  What I have learned is very promising. Everything from teas to tinctures, and more. Most of it is very easy to process.  Very interesting - and legal. From what I have read and heard - there are a only a few dangers to be aware of - but generally speaking, it is safe / especially if you aren't experimenting with it as a recreational drug (as in over consumption). 

I'm actually planning to cultivate a different variety of the "weed". The Doc may tell why I shouldn't mess with it. I'll listen.

Edited by - tonyelder on 06/18/2025 19:06:22

DougD - Posted - 06/18/2025:  19:23:17

Tony, I meant literally talked about in our household. We have several thistly things sprouting up this year, and Pam seemed to have some folk knowledge of this one.
Here's a handy site for "weed" identification, but it doesn't say anything about uses or effects. weedid.cals.vt.edu/profile/124

Edited by - DougD on 06/18/2025 19:29:18

tonyelder - Posted - 06/18/2025:  20:15:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Tony, I meant literally talked about in our household. We have several thistly things sprouting up this year, and Pam seemed to have some folk knowledge of this one.

Here's a handy site for "weed" identification, but it doesn't say anything about uses or effects. weedid.cals.vt.edu/profile/124

---

LOL.    ...don't I feel silly.  

Yes, that is the plant I'm talking about. That is the variety growing in the garden. I identified it wih google plant id - take a picture on your phone using google and it will match it with a photo data base and give a percentage of confidence on what they've identify (along with other possibilities). This had 90% accuracy. I'm confident with that identification - based on how it is shown and described in YouTube videos. 

I'm in the process of cultivating a different variety: "Lactuca virsoa".  If you've talked about it, then you probably have a good idea about how it would be processed and what it is used for.  I'd like to hear from you - if you guys take steps in that direction. 

tonyelder - Posted - 06/19/2025:  14:26:31

Doctor said try the Wild Lettuce. And I got a plan. Here we go.

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/19/2025:  20:28:11

Sounds like you're growing the plant where the original lactucarium naming came from (Wikipedia). I'll need to do some studying for the next time I'm out foraging.

tonyelder - Posted - 06/19/2025:  21:18:43

LOL... you can't make this stuff up (as Lee would say)...



As I'm leaving a 'fast food" close to the house - I'm looking straight across the street at an empty field directly where there is a 6 foot tall weed that looks a whole lot like the one growing in my garden. I go down the street - uturn so I can pull up on the other side - em flashers on - and I'm taking plant-id pic on the phone. Positive - it is the same canadian wild lettuce. Then I look around and there are several others. I pulled up 5 - through them in the back of the truck. I looked again - oh my - there is a lot more. I won't be greedy - I don't need that much. But I know where they are.



I know what to look for now - and even later - on a drive back from groceries - yeap - there's another on the side of the road in an overgrown easement.



I find that interesting and fascinating. Interesting that I've never known about it - and now that I do -I see it everywhere. Fascinating - that it is not better known. But then again - that may say something about how effective it is. We'll see. Cautiously optimistic.



It is tincture making time.

Edited by - tonyelder on 06/19/2025 21:22:19

farmerjones - Posted - 06/20/2025:  05:14:55

I thought ihad a patch. But I remember it flowers pink, then turns into goat whiskers. Gonna try that Google plant i.d.

tonyelder - Posted - 06/20/2025:  08:29:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by farmerjones

I thought ihad a patch. But I remember it flowers pink, then turns into goat whiskers. Gonna try that Google plant i.d.

---

"Among the Lactuca species, pink flowers are not typical. Most wild lettuces—like Lactuca canadensis, L. virosa, L. serriola, and L. quercina—produce pale yellow, bluish, or occasionally whitish blooms. There’s no well-documented Lactuca variety with naturally pink flowers in the wild or in cultivation."

...according to Copilot.

The google plant id is very convenient and fairly accurate. There has been a few times when the id was questionable - but not often.

tonyelder - Posted - 06/20/2025:  08:34:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Sounds like you're growing the plant where the original lactucarium naming came from (Wikipedia). I'll need to do some studying for the next time I'm out foraging.

---

I have read that the can spread quickly in the wild (invasive). The trick is to harvest them before they flower for the most potent and best quality "product" - (whatever you are wanting to do with it). The seeds are spread like dandelion seeds - airborne.  

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/20/2025:  08:56:22

Oof, airborne seeds are a clever design.



Touche, Mother Nature, touche.

Goat whiskers does soundsl like dandelion styled seeds. 

Edited by - ChickenMan on 06/20/2025 08:58:19

Dick Hauser - Posted - 07/04/2025:  15:25:34

My wife has respiratory problems and skeletal problems. My Grandson gave her a CBD.

It provided more relief and fewer side affects than prescribed medications. I think the reason it is not as common is the same reason as we cannot buy a cheap EV car. It posses a threat as an alternative to a more expensive commodity. $$$$$$.

Edited by - Dick Hauser on 07/04/2025 15:26:46