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jehanna - Posted - 11/26/2008: 19:57:01
This is not exactly music theory but I see no other place for it and I did not want to hijack another thread to answer a question. When speaking of music the term Celtic covers most of the music originating from the British Isles. Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Breton, The Shetland Islands and more. Irish traditional music, often called trad or ITM are mostly the folk tunes and songs handed down through generations. A lot of trad and Scots music came over with the early settlers and became the music of the Appalacians, the root of old time and a lot of bluegrass. We are all playing Celtic music. If you are really interested in Irish music check out thesession.org. I will warn you to think before you post there. A lot of these folks are Irish (as in live there). They are nice enough but have a sharp sense of humor, are very opinionated, and will pick on you if you post something stupid.
When I can play ragtime annie like Rex I will quit learning.
lime rock can stay in the creek.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/26/2008: 21:51:20
jehanna,
Everything you're saying is quite true as far as it goes, but, like it or not, there is a modern
genre called "Celtic" that blends tunes and stylistic aspects of different of traditional Celtic
(as you use the term) music traditions. Perhaps it's a fad, a flash in the pan, but for now it exists, and some traditional Irish and Scottish musicians are using the label. Why? Perhaps money is a factor, but they also may be tired of the witticisms and criticisms of picky opinionated people- it offers mature musicians a chance to grow and experiment, (FREEDOM!)
and also reach a new audience.
I can't remember the name they play under, but recently Bruce Molsky, Alasdair Fraser,
and a couple of other traditional musicians of similar stature have been touring together.
I get the impression they play some stuff separately, some stuff together (correct me if I'm wrong)
And what would you call such a concert?
Why, "Celtic", of course.
If you made a recording of such a concert, how would you market it?
Likewise, as "Celtic".
I personally like my traditional music genres <distinct> and unblended,
but I'm enough of a history buff to know that much of history is <trends>, and
this is such a <trend>.
I dislike linguistic confusion myself, and I think it oughta be called
<Pan-Celtic>! 
Or maybe "Flash-in-the-Pan-Celtic" by those who wish it would
go away! 
Whatever you call it, the relationship between it and the traditional
genres of Irish, Scottish, etc. are somewhat <tense>, I've noticed.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time! 
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 11/26/2008 21:59:19
Percy - Posted - 11/26/2008: 21:58:25
The Celtic peoples populated most of the British Isles as well as Ireland -- and so there is much blending between the styles. Listen to "Red Is The Rose" (an Irish tune) and "Bonnie Banks O' Loch Lomond" (a tune from Scotland). Both countries lay claim to the tune -- but there only a few notes that are different in each tune. I, being Irish, of course, prefer the Irish version! But as they both have Celtic roots, I think they both are lovely tunes indeed!
Southwind, an OT/BJ standard, is really a very slow, Irish air... So much of the music we talk about on this forum has Celtic roots -- regardless of the specific region.
DougD - Posted - 11/26/2008: 22:05:04
Yes, thats a good definition of Celtic music, jehanna (except that traditional American "old time" music is not Celtic - that is one of its roots, but its distinctly American).
But fiddlepogo is right that the term is being used in a new way to describe something else out there, which takes bits and pieces of music from various Celtic lands along with a fair amount of New Age "stuff." Around here its often something not really rooted in a specific tradition, often involving hammered dulcimers, and usually pretty lame, IMO. I've heard that real players of Irish and Scottish music are not too happy about this use of the term. Its like calling Tommy Jarrell "Americana" or "Roots Music."
There is also a trend, in various kinds of "tradition" based music from all over the world, to kind of "pop" it up with electronics, drums, and things. American, "Celtic," African, Middle Eastern, Chinese for all I know. I call it "World Blah Blah Music."
jehanna - I just noticed on your homepage that you play the hammered dulcimer.
Pleae don't take my remark personally - I'm thinking of something specific around here. When I hear there's going to be a "Celtic" band, as opposed to Irish or Scottish, I usually cringe.
Edited by - DougD on 11/26/2008 22:37:30
jehanna - Posted - 11/26/2008: 23:12:33
well yes and yes.
I was only offering little insight to Tom who ask what the difference was between Irish and Celtic music.
I am aware of the current trends and Celtic is such a vague word, and refers to so many people and things it is hard to say not so to it. I don't care what people call their music as long as they enjoy making it. I have friends who play what they call "Celtic rock" -- not a bad band and lot of fun but nothing traditional about it.
the remark about OT music was meant to be funny. I do hear a lot of old time tunes that remind me of the reels and jigs my grandda played for me when I was a child. Of course the Irish try to claim Angeline and we all know where that came from.
I play the dulcimer mostly for myself. I take it to bluegrass sessions sometimes but not to Irish. You are right, they do not like instruments that are not strictly trad. I have played D flute and bordhran all my life so I get by. I sure am not going into an Irish session with a fiddle. I suspect the Irish stole Loch Lomand but that needs a little research.
When I can play ragtime annie like Rex I will quit learning.
lime rock can stay in the creek.
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 11/27/2008: 01:34:41
quote:
Originally posted by jehanna
I was only offering little insight to Tom who ask what the difference was between Irish and Celtic music.
Thanks for the feedback.
quote:
I am aware of the current trends and Celtic is such a vague word, and refers to so many people and things....
Yes, it does seem a bit vague, esp when there is so much overlap in fiddle music genres. Seems there is also quite a tendency towards disagreement on the geographical origins of many related tunes.
quote:
I don't care what people call their music as long as they enjoy making it.
Sounds like a plan.
Cheers,
Tom
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 11/27/2008: 01:38:37
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I personally like my traditional music genres <distinct> and unblended.
Oh man, if it was only that easy!
Cheers,
Tom
OTJunky - Posted - 11/27/2008: 06:54:34
quote:
Originally posted by jehanna
...We are all playing Celtic music...
When I can play ragtime annie like Rex I will quit learning.
lime rock can stay in the creek.
I doubt that either "Ragtime Annie" or "Lime Rock" can be traced to celtic origins...
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
GeeDubya - Posted - 11/27/2008: 07:05:46
The arguments have been pretty well laid out here. I would strongly agree that "Celtic" as applied to music is pretty much a marketing term, much like "New Age". It's pretty much romantic fantasy (and often mixed with a bit of Arthurian-based legends) to think that the music we hear today from Ireland, Scotland, Brittany, Galicia, Isle of Man, etc. harkens back to some sort of music rooted with the central European tribes who expanded over much of Western Europe before the Christian Era. Yes, there are common tunes shared throughout the British Isles, and many can be traced to other parts of Europe as well, but most of this dispersal is of fairly recent history (let's say in the last 300 years or so), and the Celts were long-gone by then. When a Galician band plays Irish jigs, or a Scottish band plays a Breton gavotte or an dro, it has more to do with the recent dissemination of music via modern technology than any deeply rooted Pan-Celtic sensibilities or heritage of the music. It's a great marketing term however, sells lots of CDs and tickets to Celtic festivals, but doesn't accurately describe a musical heritage emanating from an old Bronze-Age culture that spread over Europe 1000 years ago.
George
OTJunky - Posted - 11/27/2008: 07:14:00
quote:
Originally posted by jehanna
well yes and yes.
I was only offering little insight to Tom who ask what the difference was between Irish and Celtic music.
Yup - I've heard more than one hard core Irish fiddler say that they find the term "Celtic music" insulting when applied to the music they play.
Don't know exactly why some of'em feel insulted by it, but some Irish musicians definitely bristle at it.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 11/27/2008: 07:14:40
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
It's [Celtic] a great marketing term however, sells lots of CDs and tickets to Celtic festivals,.....
Not to mention the ticket sales to basketball games in Boston.....
Percy - Posted - 11/27/2008: 07:20:01
Except that "Celtic" as a cultural term is pronounced with a hard "C" (with the exception of the Scottish football/soccer team) -- the basketball team is pronounced with an "S" sound. I never could figure that out why that is. Maybe it has something to do with sports!
Edited by - Percy on 11/27/2008 07:20:56
jehanna - Posted - 11/27/2008: 07:24:35
ragtime annie and lime rock are in my signature. This is a running joke, folks here rag me when I say I wish I could play something like whoever I am currently in awe of.
they have absolutely nothing to do with Celtic or Irish music.
I am learning old time and bluegrass for fiddle. I doubt I will ever be good enough to play Irish fiddle at tempo in public.
Keltic -- never call a Celt a selt
When I can play ragtime annie like Rex I will quit learning.
lime rock can stay in the creek.
Edited by - jehanna on 11/27/2008 07:28:03
coelhoe - Posted - 11/27/2008: 07:56:11
The musical influences of "Celtic" peoples, what the Romans called the "Gauls, " are more extensive than usually recognized and included music from Corsica, northern Italy, south central France, and other parts of Europe. A geographic plot of the existence of the bagpipe is a good indicator.
The recent publication of "The Invention of Scotland: Myth and History," by Hugh Trevor-Roper, and the new release of "The Oxford Companion to Scottish History" show how much fantasy and and fiction still inform our sense of the "Celtic" in history and culture.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
DougD - Posted - 11/27/2008: 08:07:02
quote:
Originally posted by jehanna
You are right, they do not like instruments that are not strictly trad.
Well, except maybe the
Bouzouki, or whatever that thing is!
Percy - Posted - 11/27/2008: 08:55:26
There are "purists" that insist that Irish trad music should involve ONLY traditional Irish instruments. The problem with that is nobody seems to be able to find where that line is. The tin whistle IS an Irish instrument developed on the island. But beyond that, well, the violin/fiddle certainly isn't Irish... The squeeze-box certainly isn't Irish, nor is the bodhran (the drum) which didn't come into favor until the mid-20th century. I believe the bouzouki (a greek stringed instrument) came in about the same time. Guitars are a recent addition as well.
So if you remove all the NON-Irish instruments, you're left with a tin whistle and the human voice. And while I love a whistle and a solo Irish voice as much as the next person, well, jeez... there's just not much variety there.
On my Irish trad forum, there are arguments about this all the time. I tend to agree with those who argue for "modified" traditional music -- to allow modern instruments such as the guitar to be included. If we don't include them, the genre will die.
But I know there are many who totally disagree with me... and that's okay too. I think we need both sides... the "purists" keep us from straying too far from the roots... and the "moderates" who accept modern instruments and arrangements that keep the music fresh and the genre accessible for generations to come.
DougD - Posted - 11/27/2008: 09:03:24
I guess the harp goes pretty far back in Ireland too, and maybe the (transverse) flute?
Edited by - DougD on 11/27/2008 09:04:24
Percy - Posted - 11/27/2008: 09:16:31
The harp may figure in there... but it's still a "derivative" instrument as is the banjo from other parts of Europe. Some trad folks think they belong... others don't.
Now I can say this because I'm married to a man from Ireland -- the Irish love a good controversy and love to argue about most everything... and then settle things over a nice, cold pint!
Fidla - Posted - 11/27/2008: 09:24:48
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
quote:
Originally posted by jehanna
You are right, they do not like instruments that are not strictly trad.
Well, except maybe the Bouzouki, or whatever that thing is!
yup it's called a bouzouki, and it's definitely not "trad". In fact, it was introduced to the genre in 1966.
The 5 string banjo is more "trad" than some of the Irish instruments considered "trad" today. It was introduced in the 1800's to the hoy-palloy over there, and trickled down to the common folks and musicians. It was considered a traditional instrument up until the turn of the century when it began to disappear. The guitar is also a fairly recent instrument to the mix, although now it's considered a "trad" instrument as well.
The original/traditional instrumentation for music of the western european hemisphere was an instrument that anyone could make with a knife in their own backyard - the whistle. All you needed was a reed and a knife and you were on your way.
The pipes came after the whistle.
The harp was introduced much later - in the 1600s
The violin was introduced in the 1700s
The 5 string banjo was introduced in the 1800s
The accordion and bodhran were introduced in the 1900s
The guitar in the 1950s
The bouzouki in the 1960s
You won't ever see a hammer dulcimer, dulcimer, bass, electric guitar, traps (drum set), piano, brass (horns), woodwins, percussion or any other instruments in an Irish session.
______________
My website: for fiddlers
www.adamrsweet.comFive String Fiddles, Bows for Fiddlers
www.emilysviolinco.comEverything you wanted to know about Bow Hair, but were afraid to ask
www.bowhair.net
Fidla - Posted - 11/27/2008: 09:32:44
My reasons for calling Woodkerne's music Celtic in nature.
I started the band in 1997, after playing bluegrass fiddle and mandolin since 1980. I had been to Ireland, to Sligo where my Grandfather was born, and to Kilfenora, where my friend Mary had a B&B and I learned proper ornamentation. I had been playing the contradance circuit in western MA since the 1970's, and knew all the standard fiddle tunes. I wanted a band that could play weddings, festivals, concerts and pubs.
We started out as Crackerjack, and later change the name to Woodkerne when we did a title search on the name and found a punk rock band already called Crackerjack. If you google Woodkerne, you find out they were a bunch of former Irish land-owners kicked out of their homes by the British who ran a series of attacks and raids on the usurpers to try to get their land back. Kind of a fun name, eh?
So we started with the tunes I knew - mostly contradance stuff with a few things I picked up in Ireland in '96. A lot of contradance music is mixed with Scottish, Irish, French Canadian, Cape Breton and New England tunes. Although our instrumentation was and is "traditional", i.e. fiddle, bouzouki, bodhran, banjo, guitar; I felt it wasn't appropriate to call our music Irish or even Scottish as it was neither. Hence the use of the term "Celtic".
In 1998, I began a band booking agency. I was the north American agent for the Old Blind Dogs (a band from Scotland) and Sliabh Notes (from Ireland). It felt better to call myself a Celtic Agent, rather than an Irish or Scottish agent at the time.
Now, Woodkerne plays a lot of Scottish and Irish tunes. We've mostly set aside the North American material - we only pull it out if we have a dance or a long gig needing a lot of material. If you want to hear what we sound like, here's a link to our Myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/woodkerne
______________
My website: for fiddlers
www.adamrsweet.com
Five String Fiddles, Bows for Fiddlers
www.emilysviolinco.com
Everything you wanted to know about Bow Hair, but were afraid to ask
www.bowhair.net
Percy - Posted - 11/27/2008: 09:33:56
But this all brings about a really funny story...
When I visited a pub in Kilkenny City, Ireland a few years back... It was a Saturday afternoon and the pub owners told me I really needed to come back for the evening's entertainment -- the best tenor in ALL of Ireland was going to be entertaining that night.
Well, I couldn't wait... I went out for a bite to eat and came back in great anticipation of hearing Ireland's GREATEST tenor... I couldn't wait to hear him!
I got there and this handsome silver-haired man came over to me immediately. He introduced himself as the singer and had been told about the American girl who was coming to hear him. He told me he would dedicate a song to me.
How picture perfect is this, I thought -- a real Irish tenor dedicating a song to me!
Then he started. As it turned out, he was an Elvis impersonator... and dedicated "It's Now or Never" to the "lovely American girl in the corner."
While it wasn't trad, I have come to realize it is typically Irish -- and I had the time of my life. I smiled and laughed so much that evening that my facial muscles actually ached by the time I got to bed.
Ah, the Irish -- there's nobody like them!
DougD - Posted - 11/27/2008: 09:36:15
What about the flute - isn't that a "woodwind?"
And my encyclopedia has a picture of the supposed harp of King Brian Borhu, who died in 1014.
http://books.google.com/books?id=wP...=1&ct=result
And a small cocktail drum set, or at least a snare drum is an essential part of a "village hall" type ceili band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmkaWZ9ieGU
I'm starting to think that a modern "trad" Irish session is about as traditional in form as a Clifftop jam!
Edited by - DougD on 11/27/2008 09:40:51
Fidla - Posted - 11/27/2008: 09:40:22
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
What about the flute - isn't that a "woodwind?"
I stand corrected. Of course it is. The wooden flute was introduced in the 1500s about the time that we (the Irish) were at war with the first British settlers. They brought the flute with them and some of us liked it.
Personally, I don't like the sound much. I'd rather have the pipes
______________
My website: for fiddlers
www.adamrsweet.comFive String Fiddles, Bows for Fiddlers
www.emilysviolinco.comEverything you wanted to know about Bow Hair, but were afraid to ask
www.bowhair.net
Percy - Posted - 11/27/2008: 09:40:38
Doug -- you're right... trad is all over the place. It just depends on what group you're working with.
I have an "Irish Folk Band" -- that's the way I describe it -- "
http://www.exilesoferin.com/
"Celebrating the traditions of Irish music in America" -- this lets me off the hook -- we can play just about any darn thing we want -- with any instrument. And anybody who doesn't like it can "Go jump sideways!" We don't have to adhere to any doggone rules!
DougD - Posted - 11/27/2008: 09:46:46
BTW, my grandfather was also from Ireland, but a different part - Belfast. His name was Scott if that tells you anything!
I'm worse than either of you - I've been playing some with a fellow who sings Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem type songs. I don't even begin to know what to call that stuff! He's a really good singer and guitar player though, and a nice guy (married to an Irish woman) and I've been getting to brush up on a few jigs and reels too. While we were playing at a local Farmer's Market I told him where my grandfather was from, and he recoiled in horror and immediately crossed himself!
"We don't have to adhere to any doggone rules!" That's the spirit, Percy!
Nothing's too good for the Irish!
Edited by - DougD on 11/27/2008 09:51:53
Percy - Posted - 11/27/2008: 09:51:20
My husband is a Prod from Belfast... so yes, I know what the first name of "Scott" would mean!
Yes, you'll find Irish music runs the board -- from the jigs and reels, to the airs and ballads... and it's okay to love all of them. It's the heart and soul of the music that is more important than which instrument is playing the stuff... at least that's my opinion. The pain and suffering, the loneliness and longing, the poverty and deprivation -- coupled with courage, strength and a dash of humor. That IS the essence of the Irish people and their music.
So just sit back and enjoy... and if you ever get to Ireland, be prepared for the time of your life!
Fidla - Posted - 11/27/2008: 10:13:29
quote:
Originally posted by Percy
It's the heart and soul of the music that is more important than which instrument is playing the stuff.
Fantastic! that's exactly how i feel about it too, but you said it better than I could
______________
My website: for fiddlers
www.adamrsweet.comFive String Fiddles, Bows for Fiddlers
www.emilysviolinco.comEverything you wanted to know about Bow Hair, but were afraid to ask
www.bowhair.net
Percy - Posted - 11/27/2008: 10:15:41
I think when you have a Celtic spirit... you can play the music on a row of jars with different water levels and achieve the essence of the music. It's more than music -- it a spirit which encompasses the triumphant history of a people...
Sue B. - Posted - 11/27/2008: 10:44:11
There is a Celtic tie-in to Cajun music, too. The Acadians who found there way to SW La. were not the first settlers, and over the next 200 years, various other waves of immigrants filtered in. The French language held on until roughly WWII, but many names are Irish, like Reed, Trahan, McGee. The well-known Balfa ,(or Bolfas), family came to La. from Appalachia, and were before that Scottish Balfour's. There are intriguing echoes of other music more than that many direct transfers, though those certainly exist, too. Sue
coelhoe - Posted - 11/27/2008: 11:50:33
I posted this in another thread a few months ago: but, I was in Ireland for the summer of '65: Belfast, Sligo, Galway, and Dublin. I was mostly interested in traditional song in those days and collected / learned a great variety of material. I played a few gigs in the Dublin area, US finger style folky stuff. I had a pal who lived in the same cold-water Dublin apt. building with Barney McKenna, the tenor banjo player with the Dubliners and I got to visit a few times. The Dubliners could fill a hotel ballroom in Howth with 500 people just by word of mouth, but the Clancy's were not well thought of. Jealous of their success, maybe.
Almost all of the featured tenors in pubs in those days, even at O'Donaghues' on Stephen's Green in Dublin, performed American country music, especially Jim Reeves and Marty Robbins. That made me re-think the whole idea of what constitutes a musical "tradition."
There was not much jam-type pub music in those days as the present revival had not yet really started. But singing in pubs was common. Most of the older singers (those born around 1900) in the west were ready to share songs of the Black and Tan days, some great stuff that I've never seen published probably due to the "rough" language. They were delighted that an American would even know of such things, let alone ask for a performance.
They were grand days. I was just out of the Army, and ready for some wild times. I found them.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/27/2008: 11:59:46
That's definitely an aspect of the "Celtic" label that I like-
"truth in labeling"! And I think for Americans playing Irish and/or
Scottish music, that's really a virtue, not a vice.
quote:
Originally posted by celticagent
My reasons for calling Woodkerne's music Celtic in nature.
I started the band in 1997, after playing bluegrass fiddle and mandolin since 1980. I had been to Ireland, to Sligo where my Grandfather was born, and to Kilfenora, where my friend Mary had a B&B and I learned proper ornamentation. I had been playing the contradance circuit in western MA since the 1970's, and knew all the standard fiddle tunes. I wanted a band that could play weddings, festivals, concerts and pubs.
We started out as Crackerjack, and later change the name to Woodkerne when we did a title search on the name and found a punk rock band already called Crackerjack. If you google Woodkerne, you find out they were a bunch of former Irish land-owners kicked out of their homes by the British who ran a series of attacks and raids on the usurpers to try to get their land back. Kind of a fun name, eh?
So we started with the tunes I knew - mostly contradance stuff with a few things I picked up in Ireland in '96. A lot of contradance music is mixed with Scottish, Irish, French Canadian, Cape Breton and New England tunes. Although our instrumentation was and is "traditional", i.e. fiddle, bouzouki, bodhran, banjo, guitar; I felt it wasn't appropriate to call our music Irish or even Scottish as it was neither. Hence the use of the term "Celtic".
In 1998, I began a band booking agency. I was the north American agent for the Old Blind Dogs (a band from Scotland) and Sliabh Notes (from Ireland). It felt better to call myself a Celtic Agent, rather than an Irish or Scottish agent at the time.
Now, Woodkerne plays a lot of Scottish and Irish tunes. We've mostly set aside the North American material - we only pull it out if we have a dance or a long gig needing a lot of material. If you want to hear what we sound like, here's a link to our Myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/woodkerne
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/27/2008: 12:18:02
I think in a sense that when we talk about Celtic music we are talking about hybridizing
related music genres.
Old Time is the result of the Celtic hybridization that was occurring two and three hundred years ago,
and with some African-American influence has evolved into a unique modern genre.
What's currently called "Celtic" is a similar hybridizing that's currently in progress.
I don't think we can know where it's going to end up- it could be a boom and bust thing like the "Folk Boom" (also pretty hybridized stuff), or it could end up as a relatively vital genre like
Old Time or Bluegrass.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
jehanna - Posted - 11/27/2008: 14:02:51
Personally, I don't like the sound much. I'd rather have the pipes
______________
Very few people play the uilleann pipes anywhere near well enough to take the place of
the wooden D flute in traditional Irish music. Ever heard Mat Malloy play masons
apron?
there are a few.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF3fW4Nox9U
When I can play ragtime annie like Rex I will quit learning.
lime rock can stay in the creek.
ladymuse - Posted - 11/28/2008: 00:38:45
I find it interesting, to make the distinctions - (styles)
as until I got here, and found the lumping together under celtic -
I had always answered the "what do you play" question with
"Irish, Scottish, Old English, and Appalachian - OL!
jen!
jehanna - Posted - 11/28/2008: 09:18:38
The topic started to define the difference between Irish trad and Celtic music in general.
I think the Celt population of the hangout is small and we do tend to stick together even though the sub groups our music and heritage are different. The point has been made that the mixing and blending has no other valid name but Celtic. I read and post here because I am a fledgling old time fiddler but I am and have been an Irish musician forever and because I will also play Scottish, Shetland or anything else I like I guess I am Celtic too.
And I play scales
When I can play ragtime annie like Rex I will quit learning.
lime rock can stay in the creek.
scrubber - Posted - 11/28/2008: 13:15:03
quote:
Originally posted by celticagent
Jen, lately I've been playing scales ;)
When you're done with your scales, perhaps you could play us a
tune?
BTW, some celtic tunes are
modal rather than major or minor -- are you also practicing modal scales??
(It's not that I'm against practicing, but I dislike practicing
abstractly).
To paraphrase Patrick Henry -- 'Give me tunes or give me death!'
dave
Edited by - scrubber on 11/28/2008 13:38:19
jehanna - Posted - 11/28/2008: 18:49:02
What a splendid idea!
please send us a tune (or 3)
_____________________________________________________________
My pipes still sound better than my fiddle. now that is SCARY!
http://www.sebabluegrass.org
GeeDubya - Posted - 11/29/2008: 06:02:18
Celtic Agent commented:
You won't ever see a hammer dulcimer, dulcimer, bass, electric guitar, traps (drum set), piano, brass (horns), woodwins, percussion or any other instruments in an Irish session.
To the contrary, I've played in several very well established sessions in Ireland that have a regular keyboard player (Pepper's Bar in Feakle, Kelly's in Enniskillen are two examples). Percussion? Spoons appear with some frequency (and not just by the American punters).
Saxophones were quite common in Irish dance bands both in Ireland, UK and U.S. in the 20s and 30s, as that was a popular sound at the time. Some retro bands still employ this sound.
I would opine that instrumentation considered "proper" in "trad" music varies from decade to decade with what happens to be fashionable for one reason or another. Concertina was a regular fixture in Irish house parties and country dances at the turn of the 20th c. (they were portable & cheap), same with melodeon. Uilleann pipes were very popular 100 years ago, almost disappeared then have made a strong resurgence. If Johnny Moynihan hadn't gone to Greece and dragged home a bouzouki (and got Donal Lunny & Alec Finn interested in the sound), I doubt they would be present in the "trad sound" today.
For traditional music to remain alive and not just a cultural artifact it must be flexible enough to accept new ideas and modes from time to time. Fortunately that's the case.
George
jehanna - Posted - 11/29/2008: 06:43:19
George my boy, I do smell a wee bit of ITM in your blood.
good of you to point out the piano is often played in Irish pubs and
the box is indeed welcome as is the lovely simple system flute.
I have tried to play the uilleanns, I am quite passable with the greats
but the racket is more that I could take. makes a rank beginner with
a fiddle sound like a soothing lullaby.
_____________________________________________________________
My pipes still sound better than my fiddle. now that is SCARY!
http://www.sebabluegrass.org
bj - Posted - 11/29/2008: 09:02:14
quote:
I have tried to play the uilleanns, I am quite passable with the greats
but the racket is more that I could take. makes a rank beginner with
a fiddle sound like a soothing lullaby.
WOW. I never realized there was any instrument that sounded WORSE when being learned than the fiddle! Now that's saying a mouthful!
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coelhoe - Posted - 11/29/2008: 09:19:58
Even worse is the Breton "bombarde," a double-reed relative of the oboe, but which is louder than a trumpet and can be heard, literally, for miles. The sound is that of a goat in great pain. It is usually played in ensemble with a Breton pipes and drums. There is no practical way to mute it. Thankfully, it has not gained popularity in Ireland.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/29/2008: 12:52:42
Funny,
we also have a parallel discussion on Celtic music going on over at the Fiddle Forum-
actually it went off topic, since a newbie fiddler wanted a "generalized" fiddle approach,
and I suggested "New England" or "Celtic" as generalized approaches, and some took exception to me mentioning Celtic as valid genre in ANY respect, and we were off to the races!
Someone mentioned the wikipedia article on Celtic Music, and I read it, and it was good,
but negative in that it was of the view that it's not a valid genre, that it's just marketing.
But it mentioned Alan Stivell, the Breton harpist. I do think he might be responsible for a lot of what passes for Celtic music, the kind with the harps (or hammered dulcimers as a substitute) that's very vague and romantic.
The article also mentioned that there are two branches of the Celtic peoples, and they are quite different in their language and their music. There is the northern branch including the Scots, Irish, and Manx, and the southern branch including the Welsh, Cornish, Bretons, and Galicians.
Since all the groups in the Southern branch are heavily dominated by the countries to the east of them, and two of them have lost their languages, it seems natural that there would
be this perhaps romantic sense of a collective identity or a shared experience.
Also Stivell being a harpist, and harp being an instrument that has almost died out,
and also one that is more concerned with melody than ornamentation, it seems natural that he would be drawn to the harp repertoire wherever it was.
Then it occurred to me that the northern branch has an equivalent figure
or figures in Aly Bain and Boys of the Lough.
Aly Bain is from the Shetlands, and they are ethnically half Norwegian, and also get a lot of Irish influence in their music. Cathal McConnell is from Northern Ireland, which has connections to both Ireland and Scotland. So it is naturally a kind of hybrid band of the Northern Celtic musics. Anyway, with the Boys of the Lough being so popular in recent decades,
they must also have their imitators. Also, think about it, for the sake of peace continuing in Northern Ireland, it is probably a VERY GOOD thing for there to be a blended Scottish/Irish hybrid music that reflects the cultural realities of Ulster.
I think the "Lough" referred to in their name is Lough Neagh, which all the counties in Ulster except Fermanagh border on.
So you have these two music acts, Alan Stivell and Boys of the Lough that are influential,
and WILL NOT fit in the Scottish or Irish category... and their imitators.
That's a pretty slim basis for a genre, but it seems like sticking their records in the French and Scottish music sections respectively is a greater wrong than calling Celtic a genre,
especially because in most US stores, there ARE no Scottish and French sections!
The article points out that much of the objection to Celtic Music as a category comes from Scottish and Irish traditional musicians... that makes sense, since those two forms of trad music have a strong identity of their own, and Ireland IS a nation, and Scotland almost one, having it's own parliament. Having established and preserved their national identities at such cost, Scottish and Irish musicians are probably loathe to submerge it in this collective
Celtic identity.
There are other interested parties to this discussion we haven't heard from-
and I suspect their views would be quite different.
Do we have any Bretons, Cornish, Welsh, or Galicians on the Fiddle Hangout that could
give us the point of view of a musician from a <smaller> Celtic people?
The thing is, Ireland and Scotland are on the radar screens for Americans- due to ancestry
and St. Paddy's Day, and kilts and highland bagpipe bands and Braveheart!
And that's quite an accomplishment considering Americans are notorious bad at geography.
(you would not believe how many Americans I've told that I'm married to a Swedish woman,
and straight away they start asking me about Switzerland!).
But very likely, most Americans (unless they are mostly Welsh or Cornish ancestry)
don't have a clue where Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, and Galicia are, let alone the fact that
they are related Celtic peoples.
So to market the music of those smaller groups in the US at all, you <have> to have an umbrella label like "Celtic". For Scottish and Irish, you <almost> don't... except if you have Americans playing Irish and Scottish music...
Arghhhhh!!!! this is starting to make my brain hurt-
I don't thing we are ever going to solve this one!
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
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for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
jehanna - Posted - 11/29/2008: 13:21:33
It really matters not
we will just keep fiddlin
old time, Irish or whatever makes us happy.
and singing songs bout chickens
_____________________________________________________________
My pipes still sound better than my fiddle. now that is SCARY!
http://www.sebabluegrass.org
