ShawnCraver - Posted - 03/28/2025:  14:10:16

nice writing alaskafiddler... concise... pretty much how I look at it

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/28/2025:  14:45:39

As usual, the Classical folks have been there before the Trad folk, With "Counterpoint Using Chords".



 

NCnotes - Posted - 03/28/2025:  15:41:36

This is not on topic…



But re bluegrass fiddlers…one of our sesh players was talking about playing slow tunes and waltzes with his bluegrass fiddlin’ friend.

And his friend said, “If ah don’t play something fast soon, ah’m gonna explode!”

The way he said it, was so funny! 



OK sorry back to thread...

buckhenry - Posted - 03/28/2025:  18:26:37

Here's a few more ideas.....

1. Research common chord progressions in specific genres. There are loads of backing tracks on youtube to jam over, or use a programme like BIAB where the chord progression can be created. Run your motifs in perpetual motion outlining the chord changes.
2. If you are a good reader, download many versions of a tune and take notice of where and how the notes differ. Sight read through them without committing to memory a single version, eventually ideas will appear on which and where to change notes.
3. Select simple folk songs such as Campdown Races, play it slow enough that you can easily double the rhythmic speed i.e. 1/4 notes to 1/8 notes. Double the number of notes but retain the original 1/4 note melody; the BPM doesn't change just the note value.
4. Select tunes which have an obvious hook, Forked Dear is a good example. The first bar repeats every other bar, fill in between with improv over the set chords.
5. Select songs that have longer notes, Home Sweet Home is a good example. Over the long notes play shorter notes that harmonise, with the appropriate note value.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 03/29/2025:  06:23:15

I don't think classical players got to anything before fiddlers did.



I'm a little surprised at the focus on chord progressions when talking about fiddle tunes. It reminds me of a a little gathering I was at and me another guy were playing tunes...just tunes...fiddle and mandolin... and a guitarist came up and said... "What are the chords" ? In my mind I thought, "Well... have a listen and show us what you think the chords should be..." I really think Alaskafiddler hit on something big here... not new... but big... and a big reason many of us love fiddle tunes so much... they're like paintings... people put all kinds of frames on paintings...but frames aren't the painting... same with chords and fiddle tunes



"Trying to make these tunes/music be about the chords, chords first, or forcing it into chord progression realm is certainly one option as way to go, can sound fine. But for many it alters, shifts focus, and misses the essence of many of those tunes and style of music."

Edited by - ShawnCraver on 03/29/2025 06:24:57

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/29/2025:  10:42:52

In my understanding Counterpoint isn't about chords or vertical harmonies, its about linear or horizontal harmonies that inevitably make chords or intervals when they meet.

buckhenry - Posted - 03/29/2025:  22:07:07

I understand this thread topic to have a broader meaning, not just limited to 'fiddle tunes'.

Just this past St Patrick's Day I gave my accompanist the keys of the tunes in my set, all he played was the tonic chord of each key, it sounded terrible, he could have at least played a cadence at the conclusion of each phrase.

At the jam sesh recently, we decided to play 'Billy in the Low Ground', one member asked which chord are you gonna use in the B part, Am or F. "I dunno, play what ever you like, I'm playing these notes, what ever fits".

Once a jammer asked me what key was I in, Bm I said, no he said, It's in D major. Well I'm glad he found something to strum.

Melody with Chords matter unless you're playing Carnatic music.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 03/30/2025:  08:42:43

I think Carnatic music is a very good example of how some of us view improvising and fiddle tunes. We don't limit ourselves to chord structures, but also don't reject them.

farmerjones - Posted - 03/30/2025:  10:25:08

I had to look up Carnatic music.
I used to strictly learn tunes phonetically. Linguistically, like a rhythmic recitation.
It worked. Chord and chord voicing came later but makes me feel like I know the tune better. Good for relaying info to others. Until you say, it's a 1 - 4 - 1 - 5 tune, and watch the faces go blank. Way better just stating the key.

wrench13 - Posted - 03/30/2025:  15:04:17

Farmer I think you got something there. When I try to show fiddle tunes to guitar players in particular, telling them 1-4-5-1 style, there's so many quick chord changes in many fiddle tunes, think Fishers Hornpipe, their eyes start to glaze over. Not all, but some. When I'm writing, I kinda need to know the chords. When it's improv, the key suffices usually, unless theres some odd ball chord in there.

Brian Wood - Posted - 03/30/2025:  16:18:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by wrench13

Farmer I think you got something there. When I try to show fiddle tunes to guitar players in particular, telling them 1-4-5-1 style, there's so many quick chord changes in many fiddle tunes, think Fishers Hornpipe, their eyes start to glaze over. Not all, but some. When I'm writing, I kinda need to know the chords. When it's improv, the key suffices usually, unless theres some odd ball chord in there.

---

Fiddle tunes seem to be of 2 kinds. Ones like you said, with fast chord changes (that usually aren't that hard if the guitar player's any good), and ones with almost no changes. Lots of the tunes I like are in the latter camp, interesting to play on the fiddle, but I sometimes I have to give pep-talks to guitar players who don't know what to do with them. A better guitar player will find a groove and perhaps do a few inversions and, if appropriate, add a couple quick 5 chord turn arounds. A lessor guitar player might just stop coming to sessions. Problem solved.

buckhenry - Posted - 03/30/2025:  18:31:20

There's a good youtube account which has many bluegrass backing tracks....

Pick a song/tune you never heard/played before and improvise over it....

Now tell me you're not....... "limited by chord structure/progression".

farmerjones - Posted - 03/30/2025:  19:52:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

There's a good youtube account which has many bluegrass backing tracks....



Pick a song/tune you never heard/played before and improvise over it....



Now tell me you're not....... "limited by chord structure/progression".

---

This is interesting. 

Okay, pick a youtube sight where someone is playing solo fiddle tunes.

Pick a song/tune you've never heard nor played  and improvise over it.

Whatcha gonna do? You gotta work with what you've been given, be it chords or melody. 

buckhenry - Posted - 03/30/2025:  20:19:24

Recently I was jamming with another fiddler and we played 'Big Scioty'.

The second phrase of this tune has an imperfect cadence, but the other fiddler totally ignored it.

They're obviously not 'limited by chords'......

ShawnCraver - Posted - 03/31/2025:  07:15:07

My "brain process" is just not confined to chord structures & or bluegrass chord arrangements.

The guitar player I work with doesn't approach his backing on OT or bluegrass styles either.... We explore the mode, the mood... the melody of the tune... we both experiment with different chords...

buckhenry - Posted - 03/31/2025:  15:47:26

we both experiment with different chords...

Does this mean you decide on a chord progression after the experimentation...?

Maybe we have our wires crossed, I am referring to the chords outlined by the melody, not the guitar chord symbols written above the notation.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/01/2025:  21:24:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

I understand this thread topic to have a broader meaning, not just limited to 'fiddle tunes'.



Just this past St Patrick's Day I gave my accompanist the keys of the tunes in my set, all he played was the tonic chord of each key, it sounded terrible, he could have at least played a cadence at the conclusion of each phrase.



At the jam sesh recently, we decided to play 'Billy in the Low Ground', one member asked which chord are you gonna use in the B part, Am or F. "I dunno, play what ever you like, I'm playing these notes, what ever fits".



Once a jammer asked me what key was I in, Bm I said, no he said, It's in D major. Well I'm glad he found something to strum.



Melody with Chords matter unless you're playing Carnatic music.

---

The OP was specifically about fast fiddle tunes.

how do you improvise fast fiddle tunes (other than playing licks)

Myself, I think of improvising to most fast fiddle tunes, is different way than might other type of music; but depends on the tune.

Some fiddle tunes are not chord progression based. One example are tunes are almost entirely or essentially one chord type tunes, maybe quick half or turn around resolve (maybe just a beat, if that). 

Sally Goodin is one type of tune and improvisation that folks are familiar with. A few ideas (among many).

Eck Robertson 

Tashina Clarridge

Vi Wickam

buckhenry - Posted - 04/02/2025:  16:43:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

I understand this thread topic to have a broader meaning, not just limited to 'fiddle tunes'.



Just this past St Patrick's Day I gave my accompanist the keys of the tunes in my set, all he played was the tonic chord of each key, it sounded terrible, he could have at least played a cadence at the conclusion of each phrase.



At the jam sesh recently, we decided to play 'Billy in the Low Ground', one member asked which chord are you gonna use in the B part, Am or F. "I dunno, play what ever you like, I'm playing these notes, what ever fits".



Once a jammer asked me what key was I in, Bm I said, no he said, It's in D major. Well I'm glad he found something to strum.



Melody with Chords matter unless you're playing Carnatic music.

---

The OP was specifically about fast fiddle tunes.

how do you improvise fast fiddle tunes (other than playing licks)

Myself, I think of improvising to most fast fiddle tunes, is different way than might other type of music; but depends on the tune.

 

Some fiddle tunes are not chord progression based. One example are tunes are almost entirely or essentially one chord type tunes, maybe quick half or turn around resolve (maybe just a beat, if that). 

Sally Goodin is one type of tune and improvisation that folks are familiar with. A few ideas (among many).

Eck Robertson 

Tashina Clarridge

Vi Wickam

 

 

---

I'm not sure what your point is.... What ever the chord/s are, how do we improvise over them...?

Diddling and scat singing and the tape recorder in my head... I will attempt to include this  in my practice routine. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 04/02/2025:  19:51:48

There are different approaches to improvisation, but generally speaking, players who do a lot of it do so by learning to recognize patterns in music and to play around those. One of the jazz legends (maybe Miles Davis?) said that the secret to improvisation was learning where the “changes” occurred in a tune, meaning having at least a rudimentary understanding of where chords changed. The player who said that was one who learned by simply listening and playing and had no formal training in technique or theory yet still developed the ability to hear and anticipate progressions.

Old time fiddle music doesn’t really involve much in the way of chord progressions, so it’s easier to learn tunes by recognizing patterns in notes rather than chords. Ornaments can serve as landmarks in a tune. Since tunes consist of a simple structure that repeats until the end, you can pick a tune up quickly by listening for those landmarks and making sure you hit the mark for each one as a framework upon which you can build.

I think improvisation and quickly learning how to play tunes are being conflated, though. Improvisation isn’t about knowing how to play a tune—it’s just about having the understanding to be able to play along harmoniously with something. True improvisers can play something that sounds intelligible when they’re playing along to a piece of music for the first time. It’s a matter of k owing what’s coming and what will fit. Familiarity with chords and scales gives players a good head start.

Learning a tune quickly is a matter of being able to listen carefully for critical information that identifies a tune so that it can be repeated accurately. This involves good listening skills, memorization skills, and familiarity with the vernacular of the style. Where an improviser is likely to play something different each time, someone learning a tune is aiming to reach a definitive and repeatable interpretation or reproduction of a tune.

I think singing or humming a tune is a popular method because it makes one aware of interval spacing in melodies, whether consciously or unconsciously so. When you make bigger interval jumps in singing it makes one attentive to them because of the greater change in pitch.

wrench13 - Posted - 04/03/2025:  03:40:48

Good thing we got good 'splainerators like Rich, Buck and Geo. I personally think if you learned to play fiddle (not violin) by ear, you have the edge in trying to improvise. Folk who learn by sheet music generally have a harder time of it, I find. My own daughter, first chair saxophonist in her highly regarded jazz orchestra in school, could play classic jazz solos note for note. But when it came time to jam in our basement studio, she was lost, poor kid, where her 2 brothers who learned by ear were not.

Noticed a lot too at jam sessions where fiddlers who come from classical backgrounds (and ostensibly learned the tune from sheet music) are locked into a given version of the tune. By no means all, but noticeable. Rich's succinct outline of both learning a tune quickly and improv skills = dead on and good starting points.

Strabo - Posted - 04/03/2025:  05:22:57

I focus on what I think of as the landing notes -- the notes in a tune that are emphasized or mark places where the melody turns or ends a phrase. Those are the basic bones of the tune, and everything in between can easily be changed or adjusted.

Identifying the landing notes is my first step in learning a new tune. As soon as I can reproduce the lading notes I'm on my way to be able to play that tune. Then it's easy and fun to fill in the blanks. I think that's what they call improvising. 

Dunno if I'm unusual with this approach, but that's what works for me,

Learning from the dots is sometimes necessary but it's an excruciating process -- at least for me. The landing notes don't seem to stand out nearly as much as when I learn by ear, and filling in the blanks (improvising) requires considerably more thought.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/03/2025:  11:30:46

So what is wrong with the counterpoint approach?



You can use as much or as little counterpoint as you deem necessary, just play the melody, then when you get a bit lost. you can use it against a drone as well Diads and triads.



Hop in and out of the melody at will. It will work with Pentatonic double stops And blues scales, and/or a drone simultaneously. I would say it is more like "Arrangement on the fly" rather than "Composition on the fly" (Sorry Stephane), just playing Devils advocate......

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/03/2025:  13:01:35

Slow or fast or in the middle, i want my fiddle to be Billy Holiday

Try doin that with frets....

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 04/03/2025:  14:57:54

Get the Do, Re and Mi of the tune you want to solo in into your head as you listen to everybody else play the tune. When somebody either nods to you or you get up the nerve, play or slide up to the Do as the others chug along. Slide up repeatedly to the Do, trying to inject meaning into the note you're sliding into. Slide upward into the Mi a couple times. Alternate between the Do and Mi, again sliding into the Mi with all the sass & confidence you can muster. As the verse being played by the others goes into its final throes, authoritatively slide into the Re, and then go back to the Do as verse ends. Once you get this stuff comfortably into your fingers & brain, you'll be sittin' pretty.