Fretful1 - Posted - 10/05/2024:  17:46:09

Again, I'm just trying to understand... Responses to my fret marker question included responses suggesting eye strain would occur by trying to view markers on the fingerboard. I've seen players (primarily bluegrass fiddlers) holding the instrument against their chests. Would this eliminate the eye strain problem? Is this a viable adaptation or would this be violin heresy?

bacfire - Posted - 10/05/2024:  18:16:18

Definitely violin heresy!

The chest hold is common in old-time music, but rare in bluegrass. It works where it works, but brings with it some severe limitations that you probably don't want to take on unless you're only going to play for OT dances or just want that OT "cool factor."

Earworm - Posted - 10/05/2024:  20:05:33

It’s more of a matter of how your brain & ears work, not your eyes. Your brain should be communicating directly with your fingers- by the time you get it working right, your eyes have nothing to do with it. If that even worked, how would you play in a room with low light? Just keep practicing, and relax.

farmerjones - Posted - 10/05/2024:  20:23:30

Early on I bowed an adjacent open string together with my stopped/fingered string, then slid into tune. It gets one, listening and familiar with bowing two strings.

I don't hang onto the fiddle with my left-hand at all. My left hand is for noting on the fingerboard. This is indeed a point of contention for some. Whatever 

Edited by - farmerjones on 10/05/2024 20:28:38

Fretful1 - Posted - 10/06/2024:  12:12:44

Thanks! All the input is very helpful.

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 10/06/2024:  14:02:07

Classical (on the shoulder). Most BG fiddlers do this b/c most of them received instruction as a kid in orchestra.

Holding against your chest (or upper arm) generally burdens your left arm/hand to keep it in position, pulling it in. That introduces muscle tension that fights against your fingers stopping the strings. It would be like trying to play a guitar/mandolin without a shoulderstrap.

IMO, the reason fiddlers went to playing that way was due to their remoteness from other methods. No teachers on the frontier other than Uncle Pen. So you played like he does. It had nothing to do with antiquity or back-woods cred. Look at folk fiddlers like Neil Gow or James Skinner, 18th, 19th century. To my knowledge, they didn't come up through the classical repertoire, but they played the instrument just like a chamber violinist.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 10/06/2024:  14:27:16

A combination of chin rest and shoulder rest allows me to comfortably keep the fiddle in its most easily played position without having to continually prop the fiddle up with my fretting hand. It also allows my fretting/stopping hand to keep a light, flexible touch both on the fingerboard...and above the fingerboard when I'm playing open strings. To be sure, you need to experiment to find the most comfortable locations for the two accessories (and it helps if you're able to test out a few chin rests and shoulder rests, as well), but all and all I'm comfortable as heck playing my fiddle.

Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 10/06/2024 14:29:06

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 10/06/2024:  17:36:56

If you look at the history of playing bowed string instruments, many of those that came before the violin were played on the arm (hence the Italian term braccia given to various members of the viol family). Smaller instruments like rebecs and crwths were held this way. When the violin was eventually invented it was held in a way much like this. However, as the composers began to explore the technical possibilities available to the violin, technique gradually evolved, and by the time of Leopold Mozart, it was common to hold the violin under the chin already even though the chinrest had not yet been invented. Spohr and Paganini popularized the chinrest, and it became ubiquitous thereafter. Once the chinrest was a standard feature of the violin, there was automatically an expectation that the violin would be played under the chin, and it wasn’t really until the revival of interest in baroque music in the 1950s that players considered removing the chinrest (they still played with the violin under the chin, though).

One can see that playing a smaller instrument like a pochette or kit would not typically allow for a chin hold, but these instruments were phased out by the end of the 18th century.

In other cultures, the fiddling is almost exclusively done in modern classical style, so what sets North American fiddling apart from the rest of the world? To me the answer lies in the settling of the mountains in the early days of American history. Settlers arrived from Europe in the early 1600s and brought the customs and technology of that era with them. Those that went up into the mountains tended to preserve these things, perhaps from a desire to maintain tradition, or perhaps simply because of a lack of exposure to changing techniques. Alexis de Tocqueville may have exaggerated the savageness of the country, but there’s no denying that it took a little longer for advancements in violin technique to reach America than it did the extremities of Europe. It’s no accident that Appalachian fiddling has a lot more in keeping with baroque violin playing than it does with modern violin playing.

Playing with the violin on the arm or shoulder gives a player a bit more comfort, as it relieves the shoulder, collarbone, and chin of the effort needed to hold in a modern position. It does, however have its drawbacks; when a violin is held this way it is very difficult to deal with shifting, and the more the back is in contact with the body, the more sound can be dampened.

Looking at the fingerboard while playing is just not very practical, as the ear is the tool that really makes the player, not the eyes. A normal player can play in tune while blindfolded, but not while fitted with headphones that make hearing impossible. The use of finger tapes is a practice that exists solely to solve in a general approach the problem of a player who is unable to hear the difference between pitches. To really play in tune one has to be constantly monitoring with the ear and adjusting. The sooner one can develop the ear, the sooner intonation issues can be resolved.

bacfire - Posted - 10/08/2024:  20:08:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Flat_the_3rd_n7th

Classical (on the shoulder). Most BG fiddlers do this b/c most of them received instruction as a kid in orchestra.



 

Probably true of most younger BG fiddlers these days, but chest hold has never been a thing in the genre.  BG fiddle has been full of slides and position changes since Monroe's earliest days with Art Wooten and Tommy Magness.  Those guys and every other early BG fiddler I can think of used a shoulder hold and very few, if any, had ever been in an orchestra class.   

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/09/2024:  09:01:29

Tommy Magness did not hold the fiddle to his chest, neither did Art Wooten. Google image search will confirm that - the fiddle is very clearly on the shoulder, but not cocked off to the side like you might picture a classical violinist soloing in front of an orchestra.  Honestly, I doubt any of the bluegrass heavy hitters use a chest type hold. I think the term "shoulder hold" that is being used is a bit of a misnomer. If one is imagining clamping down with the chin to hold the fiddle on the shoulder, that is not how it's done, even in the classical world. Clamping leads to cramping and worse. Most BG fiddlers use the same sort of hold I see the majority of fiddlers using, relaxed hold, supported by the shoulder and the left hand, with the angle of the fiddle anywhere from pointing in front and towards the floor to that classical soloist position (far rarer than the others).



Let me phrase it this way, bluegrass fiddlers, as a general rule, do not use an off the shoulder hold for the reasons stated previously (slides shifting etc). Of course, one can slide and shift with off the shoulder, but it's not as easy as standard-ish hold.

Visually the three methods (classical stuffy, relaxed on the shoulder, off the shoulder) are quite easy to distinguish.

bacfire - Posted - 10/09/2024:  09:16:38

Umm... That's pretty much exactly what I said. I think...

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/09/2024:  13:24:18

Ope! Sorry, misread that as saying they held it off the shoulder instead.





I agree with you. Lots of people hold it in the orchestral way because that's what is commonly perceived as the way due to seeing it done and not because of any instruction given via classical teacher. It is really not that odd (though I've heard it described as being not ergonomical). Contrast - I've seen a couple guys hold it like a mandolin/guitar and bow completely vertical, up and down like a pick. Seems harder to do it that way, but isn't that the beauty of the folk process, there's always room for personal expression.

Edited by - ChickenMan on 10/09/2024 13:27:11

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 10/09/2024:  13:44:01

It's been years since I felt compelled to hold my fiddle in an iron grip between the chin rest and shoulder rest. My muscles have grown strong enough for me to be able to maintain a nice, gentle but firm hold on the instrument. The position makes it easy for me to engage the entire length of the bow, something that allows me to do what the bowed instruments do best -- hold a single note or string a bunch of notes together for a heck of a long length of time. It allows me to alter the position where the fiddle sits as I play, something that keeps me from stiffening up or cramping.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 10/09/2024:  17:50:48

I think there’s a little confusion here about the various holds. For a “classical” hold, the violin should sit between the chin and collarbone, with little or no contact with the shoulder, as the shoulder is not responsible for any of the weight of the violin. It is true that this hold is not a very natural position, but I would say that it’s not entirely accurate to say it’s un-ergonomic in composition to other holds; after all, the players who use this position tend to be those who put in the greatest number of hours practicing and performing, and its benefits to technique and tone production are clear.

A shoulder hold would in my opinion be one where the bottom bout of the violin rests against the shoulder near the level of the armpit. The left hand supports the majority of the instrument’s weight.

I think of the chest hold as one where the violin is held a little lower and tucked into the torso. This distributes the weight so that a bit less is on the left hand than the shoulder hold, but the left hand is still important to counteract gravity.

The position toward the side or front is really not so much about classical or another style as it is about the use of shoulder rests. Traditionally, the classical hold involves keeping the scroll in line with the eyes; however, with the use of the shoulder rest and the tendency of some players to rotate the head and put more of the jaw into the chinrest, the violin ends up more to the side. Look at photos of the Greats and you won’t see this. Heifetz and Milstein were always revered for their posture (among many other things). One could do far worse than to study their holds!

The idea of classical players being tense and stuffy is not particularly accurate, at least not when applied to players of any skill. Nor would it be accurate to say that fiddlers necessarily have relaxed holds.

Depending on the requirements of the type of music being played, a player may find certain holds preferable. The less you need to shift, the more you can use the left arm to hold the instrument.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 10/09/2024:  23:01:14

Now that I live on a not-very-populated island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, I don't get to see much classical orchestral or chamber music anymore. Nevertheless, whenever I get to see a classical orchestra on TV, I can't help but notice that the string players, no matter how in synch their bowing and sound may be, still seem to use a variety of holds for their instruments. In other words, the way I see it, there's still plenty of individuality there.