wrench13 - Posted - 08/25/2024:  17:45:36

Hi All,
I been using a DPA 4099 for awhile and I am curious how and where you all position the microphone on the fiddle. I have been placing it so the mic sits right in the lower eye of the F-hole on the bass side of the fiddle. Literally right in that eye, on the theory that it will pickup more of the rich low end tones this fiddle is capable of producing. And also to reduce the possibility of feed back.

SO if you are fiddle/violin player using this mic, please tell us where you position the microphone on your fiddle. I've changed strings, switched brands and types of rosin and other non-permanent tweaks. So, time to try tweaks that are more of a permanent nature, like adjusting or replacing the sound post. For that I am using Edward Mayday, one of Long Island's most respected makers to do this. Changing anything on a fiddle has the possibility of affecting the sound it produces, but those changes can take some time to manifest before they are really evident - that means change may take quite a bit of time and playing before victory or defeat can be declared!

That is why I am asking users to share that bit of info. My sincere thanks are offered in advance for any help here!

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/26/2024:  12:24:30

Doug will tell you more.

But it looks to me like the output impedance is similar to a Dynamic mic, 30-40 ohms without the adapter thing, and 100 ohms with the adaptor thing which is probably a transformer? That is very low impedance for an electret mic, (which is usually around 2.2Kohms), and more similar to a ribbon mic. Probably some sort of Linkwitz Modification, which lowers the output impedance but decreases the signal to noise ratio and gives a balanced output has been utilized?

I do like a good transformer in the signal path.

Do you have the DPA adaptor thing? or a micro dot to xlr adaptor? If you do i would try an old school mic pre, like the Shure fp11 for stage work, where signal to noise ratio doesn't matter as much as it does while recording. It has a transformer input and output, 80db of gain and a limiter and was designed for Shure lavalier mics with an impedance of around 100-600 ohms (i think).

And give the mic as much "Air" as possible before feedback. i recon this would be ok for reasonably quiet gigs.....Maybe?

I picked up two Shure FP11 mic pre's for £25 each from ebay about 10 yrs ago, it was the cheapest way to run a pair of ribbon mics i bought. Dont know how much they are now?

Putting it in the f hole sounds like it would be boomy to me. And transformers seem to muddy/warm things up a bit without being boomy.

Good luck, i wish i had one to mess around with.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/26/2024:  12:40:43

looks like you might need phantom power? if so disregard all of that stuff i wrote lol...

wrench13 - Posted - 08/26/2024:  20:10:46

Yep Pete, the 4099 needs phantom power. I'll try the idea of more "air" but most of our gigs are outdoor concert settings so lots of volume. For some reason my fiddle resonates off the charts on open D and the sympathetic harmonies of that, so I have to clamp down on the EQ around 300Hz (actually 293.7) with a notch filter, but that robs the fiddle of some warmth.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/27/2024:  00:13:35

sounds like these mics suffer from the same drawbacks as the cheaper electrets. i used to use a Microvox mic, a bit like the Bartlett but not balanced. i velcro mounted that to the tailpiece and pointed it at the back of the bridge. had the same 300hz problem by the time i notched and eq'ed it out, there was hardly any signal left. i suppose you could use a separate phantom power box for a "fatter" signal and the old school setups?

i did find that i didn't need much above 10-12kHz, or below say 100Hz for fiddle. That takes care of some of the noisy rooms or wind etc. And as small a notch as possible for the 300hz feedback thing. Each gig is different, A good sound man out front sorts that out.

in fact a friend of mine does the sound down the local pub, and he uses all wireless kit that sorts it's self out. Powered speakers and the rest of the kit is all on his tablet computer! He walks around the room with a pint listening, and looking at his screen every now and again

martyjoe - Posted - 08/27/2024:  06:32:53

The f holes are very different in fiddles. One side has the bass bar, the other a sound post. That open d resonance thing may be not so pronounced on treble side, however some other part of the sound may be compromised if you switch sides ? Try it anyway.

DougD - Posted - 08/29/2024:  06:10:28

First of all, I've never used, or even seen the DPA 4099, but I understand the concept. For quite a few years I provided sound for Christmas Dance School at Berea College, which featured a lot of good fiddlers on staff, some of whom used clip on mics, mostly Audio Technica, which is the same idea.
When in doubt, you can always consult the manufacturer:
dpamicrophones.com/4099-c
This fellow is a little over the top for my taste, but this video has a lot of info about the mic:
youtu.be/BycE62V2rww?feature=shared
You can see that the recommended mounting position is a few inches above the top, pointed generally at the base of the bridge, not jammed into the f hole, about the area where I would point a stand mounted mic. In my experience I sometimes had 3 or 4 fiddlers onstage, playing into a mixture of stand and clip on mics, and they all sounded similar.
Its important to remember that these mics are designed and built for a specific purpose - attaching to an instrument and providing good sound from a few inches away. Right at the f hole (especially the bass side) is not a good choice on any instrument for two reasons. One, the soundhole is a kind of resonator, like a bass reflex loudspeaker, that works with the volume of the body to enhance the sound in some way. This is often to increase the bass response or emphasize certain notes (the low G on a D size guitar for example - could be the D on your fiddle) and is not a good representation of the sound and may actually increase feedback (which is usually caused by uneven response somewhere, not overall volume). Second, these are directional mics which exhibit increased bass response the closer they are to the source. All these mics compensate for this by incorporating a bass rolloff, usually 12 db/octave at about 80 Hz, which provides a flatter response a few inches away, but not in the f hole.
Since I mentioned the Audio Technica, here's a nice video comparing it to the DPA on a variety of instruments:
youtu.be/ifiJYhfaoT4?feature=shared
In the comments the creator was asked which one he preferred, and it was the Audio Technica.
Also, Neumann has recently come out with a similar mic at a similar price. Here's a kind of sloppy video that compares them:
youtu.be/S886ihZdeuQ?feature=shared
You said your gigs involve lots of volume, and both those last two videos include the actual sound in the room when someone is playing with a recording, and the sound just from the the mic. The isolation for all the, mics is really remarkable. The purpose of a PA system (mains) is to provide sound to the house, not back to the performers, and if this is a problem you should look at your speakers and how they're placed.
You didn't say exactly what about your sound isn't working for you, and I'd suggest you try to be specific and then look for solutions step by step - instrument, mic and placement, sound system. You mention changing strings, but elsewhere you've described changing from one of the most expensive synthetic strings to one of the cheapest (and notoriously not-so-great) solid core steel strings, and back again. There are a lot of options in between you could try.
So, in answer to your original question, try placing the mic in the recommended position - several inches above the top and pointed generally at the bridge. That's what everyone I've worked with does, and it works fine. Just look at the pictures.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/29/2024:  11:21:32

My recommendation would be experiment, trying different placement and distance and angle - use your ears to evaluate; specific to your instrument. Learning a bit to hear affect of mic placements, how some can have bigger impact that strings or rosin. Maybe even think of the mic, PU, preamp... as one with your instrument... all part of your tone in that context.

It can be tough for the player to self evaluate live, as they are hearing the acoustic sound as well. One way would be to use some good closed headphones, so only hearing the sound through the mic.

Alternatively, if have access to an audio interface (even inexpensive single ones), or mixer with A/D converter; there is free sound recording software (DAW) so as to do comparison evaluations. Record just small bit, but that covers all the range and dynamics you typically would use. Make sure take good notes of placement, distance, angle (or mic); then be able to direct switch to listening sample A to E to C. This helps because our memory is not great of what previous sound was 5 minutes ago. (DAWs offer some other tools, plugins that can be useful for analysis, learning EQ, compression).

Probably start with flat EQ (no adjustment) to get a sense of effect of placement on tone. Things like Doug mentioned, proximity effect (lows are boosted as get close). That said might also play with some EQ adjustments that will enhance the placement. I would not recommend notch filters, as it's probably not one narrow frequency. One experiment with the DAW, is using a Graphic EQ plug-in... and playing with bands learning to listen for sound of different frequency ranges, which make things sound boxy vs nasal, vs thin vs boomy vs muddy. Sometimes it can be initially wrong assumption of what frequency band, and a bit counter intuitive, like how a cut in one band gives perception of boost in another. (there are videos for using EQ, most are directed at vocals).

A few thing though to keep in mind (most of us forget). One is that perceptual tone is not quite linear with volume; (Fletcher Munson curve?) what might sound balanced at 85dB, changes as get to 100dB.  More important you have to listen to the sound of the mix, the sound of the instrument is perceptually affected by the other instruments; and how the combination of instruments makes too much buildup in one part of spectrum (often mids), and can sound muddy, or as if the instrument isn't loud enough; rather impulse to turn it up?, is to carve out frequency space.

Granted physical space live rooms, monitors and placement, will not be ideal flat response, as such will affect what tweaks might have to make placement or EQ adjustments. Not that have to get super engineering geeky, but simple experimentation helps just raising some awareness for better results, problem solving, including for better GBF headroom.

DougD - Posted - 08/29/2024:  12:22:44

Here is the page on the DPA website that describes how to mount the 4099 on various instruments:
dpamicrophones.com/mic-univers...icrophone
The range of options for the violin are really quite limited. To summarize their advice: For maximum volume, point it towards (not IN) the f hole. If that seems too dull, point it towards the bridge.
As far as EQ, etc., I use very little EQ (often none). Good instruments, good microphones, and good speakers are a much better method. If you have to rely on EQ to solve problems something else is probably wrong. I don't know about Al's fiddle, but the 4099 is certainly a quality microphone. The sound samples in the YouTubes I linked, recorded with no EQ or effects, sound great to me.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/29/2024:  14:53:44

They must have had to do some serious work on an electret capsule to make it low impedance, balanced and hypercardioid.

The addition of a nice transformer (maybe in the adapter?) would make it hard to beat for a close fiddle mic. I think these guys (DPA), know what they are doing.

The only problem i can see is the very low impedance. You need pro kit (pre amps, and amps), to make the most of that. But imo it looks like it has the potential to sound great in the right circumstances.

wrench13 - Posted - 08/30/2024:  14:04:49

Lots to try! Thanks for all the input. 8 shows this weekend, all outdoor, so we'll see. FWIW I just had the nut replaced by Ed Mayday here on LI. The D was so low on the fretboard he showed me how it was almost laying on it. Nice improvement, so we'll see. (my standard answer).

DougD - Posted - 08/31/2024:  04:49:58

Al - Sounds like you're on the right track. My advice would be to get your instrument sounding its best first, then work on mic placement, which you might be able to judge on closed ear hedphones (I wonder if noise-cancelling ones might help?) or by simple recordings. I'd expect what the mic will "hear" will be similar to what you hear "under the ear" because of the placement. Then see how it sounds with the PA. Do you carry your own sound system, or rely on what's provided? That can be interesting, as you probably already know.
I have to ask - do you stay in costume as you travel from show to show? Do you eat at Long John Silver's a lot?
Have fun!

wrench13 - Posted - 08/31/2024:  09:15:29

Hey Doug. Yeah we own and use our own sound system, most times, except for the really big shows (say over 2K people) where the venue provides it. So we know it pretty well. We are playing almost 100% pirate festivals and at some - well the level of stitch-counting can be as severe as folks involved with Civil War re-enactments, so our costume ( called kit or garb ) is very authentic ( think 1680-1720's working seamen); and that's fine with us. This weekend will be at a Rennaissance Festival and the level goes way down at those - more fru fru pirates and Disney. All good fun tho - just as easy wenching and carousing in a fancy frock coat and frilled shirt as a pair of breeches and kerseymere weskit.