doryman - Posted - 12/15/2023:  12:53:20

Hi All, I've recently discovered the fiddle playing of Tara Nevins and really enjoy it. I've copied here a link to a YouTube video wherein her band is playing Rocky Island and, in numerous places (first starting at about 37 seconds), Tara plays some kind of droney, rhythmic shuffle thing. It's got a lot of drive. Does any one know exactly what she is doing? Is it some kind of known shuffle pattern? I would sure like to learn how to do it.  I'll also add that the clawhammer banjo playing that kicks it off is wonderful too. 



youtube.com/watch?v=1V60isFZcSI

Edited by - doryman on 12/15/2023 12:54:05

ShawnCraver - Posted - 12/15/2023:  13:09:24

Darol Anger and Bruce Molsky come to mind: youtu.be/5gaOX0XrS8g

Edited by - ShawnCraver on 12/15/2023 13:10:01

Hector - Posted - 12/15/2023:  13:22:02

Sounds like a syncopation immediately after the off-beat on each alternate shuffle to me.

farmerjones - Posted - 12/15/2023:  16:28:02

I haven't heard Rocky Island in awhile. Last time was Dr. Ralph. Man, I LOVE that fiddlin! Yesir! Drive! That's it. I dunno? I'm gonna run down in the basement (fiddle room) and see. Things haven't been working physically just lately. We'll see.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/15/2023:  22:43:41

This is what I get at half speed.

Rocky Island

Rocky Island

farmerjones - Posted - 12/16/2023:  04:49:40

Does this help?

youtu.be/d80RTJLtxl8?si=q5nVNg9hw4T6-HFE

It seems pretty natural to her.

Wish I knew her tuning. She sort of sounds the same on all her videos.

Edited by - farmerjones on 12/16/2023 05:01:37

DougD - Posted - 12/16/2023:  07:34:34

Good suggestion. I was a little surprised there wasn't more of Tara's "non Donna" fiddling on YouTube, but here's another side of her music that might be helpful: youtu.be/G43H8FqkqCI

Edited by - DougD on 12/16/2023 07:35:41

farmerjones - Posted - 12/16/2023:  11:50:33

Is that 1st tune in B?

pete_fiddle - Posted - 12/16/2023:  12:02:25

i reckon C

Peghead - Posted - 12/16/2023:  12:11:05

key of c standard Tuning i think?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/16/2023:  13:52:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

This is what I get at half speed.

---

Woops, printed an octave high!

RI2

 

DougD - Posted - 12/16/2023:  14:02:10

Yes, key of C, which would be the usual key for this song in SW Virginia. Probably standard tuning.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 12/16/2023:  15:14:34

I agree with the key of C. I also got pretty close to exactly what they're doing by fingering the C on the A string while droning the open E string above. Then I went down the pentatonic scale to the C on the G string, and finished it up by once again fingering the A string's C while droning the E. Simple as heck! In short order I was playing along with 'em.



Standard Tuning BTW.

And oh yeah, I bow the open D string before I do the ending C note...

Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 12/16/2023 15:22:24

doryman - Posted - 12/16/2023:  15:50:55

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I was specifically wondering about the shuffle she employs as a background to the singing.

ChickenMan - Posted - 12/17/2023:  10:02:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by doryman

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I was specifically wondering about the shuffle she employs as a background to the singing.

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But it's the FHO, what did you expect? 

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/17/2023:  13:46:14

it's amazing that fiddling is basically the binary system practiced with a bow...and like a computer...you just have 1's and 0's and yet look at all that can be done. So we just have ups and downs...but...well gee whiz.



I finally got to the boiling point, and distilled it down to N. shuffle (I know it wasn't always called that...for lack of better description) as being the Mother of all Shuffles...and to me, for me, self-taught amateur that I am who is mostly told to stop that horrible racket when I pick up a fiddle and can't even PAY people to LET me play...lol, yes, me, from which that sort of (un) musical life springs forth opinion, I say once a person gets very comfortable with N. Shuffle to where they see many ways of employing it, so comfortable they begin to jump out, like kids playing jump rope...and time it so that they can easily jump right back in without disturbing the shuffle...and realizing during the beats of musical time in which they have jumped outisde of the shuffle, it just so happens to work out that what they CAN do with the bow during those beats, by necessity of getting back in without disturbing the beat of the shuffle, they are finding many other bowing patterns that often require years of study and practice, yet, if one works them in between an ongoing N. Shuffle grove that transcends and waits for said one to get back to it again, we sidestep the years of study and get right to it. Of course I could be delusional...afterall, I'm only a groundhog.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 12/17/2023 13:47:17

doryman - Posted - 12/17/2023:  16:37:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

it's amazing that fiddling is basically the binary system practiced with a bow...and like a computer...you just have 1's and 0's and yet look at all that can be done. So we just have ups and downs...but...well gee whiz.



I finally got to the boiling point, and distilled it down to N. shuffle (I know it wasn't always called that...for lack of better description) as being the Mother of all Shuffles...and to me, for me, self-taught amateur that I am who is mostly told to stop that horrible racket when I pick up a fiddle and can't even PAY people to LET me play...lol, yes, me, from which that sort of (un) musical life springs forth opinion, I say once a person gets very comfortable with N. Shuffle to where they see many ways of employing it, so comfortable they begin to jump out, like kids playing jump rope...and time it so that they can easily jump right back in without disturbing the shuffle...and realizing during the beats of musical time in which they have jumped outisde of the shuffle, it just so happens to work out that what they CAN do with the bow during those beats, by necessity of getting back in without disturbing the beat of the shuffle, they are finding many other bowing patterns that often require years of study and practice, yet, if one works them in between an ongoing N. Shuffle grove that transcends and waits for said one to get back to it again, we sidestep the years of study and get right to it. Of course I could be delusional...afterall, I'm only a groundhog.

---

When I was listening to Tara's driving shuffle, I was actually thinking back to a video I watched of yours about your thoughts regarding the NS, and I saw some similarities between the two of you. 

DougD - Posted - 12/17/2023:  17:07:20

doryman - At about 3:00 there's a section where she's "shuffling" and its easier to hear (especially slowed down a little). It isn't Nashville shuffle, and I don't know how to notate it here. Its sort of "Long, dee dee DEE dum DUM (held until it starts again. Its a little syncopated, but mostly just done with emphasis. I think she varies it some during the song, although I was surprised that I think the plays the fiddle break the same way every time.
I posted the link to the Heartbeats so you could see how she finds a riff that emphasizes or works off the rhythm of the song. Similar thing here. Maybe somebody else can notate it more precisely.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/17/2023:  17:28:06

When I finally got to a jam in WV led by John Morris...to me one of the very best OT fiddlers of our time...I was amazed that he has a habitual shuffle thing going on all the time that is pretty much just "fiddled" with to vary it up here and there...and from that, mainly that in his playing from what I could see...and this was at least 20 years back...but what I think I'm remembering is my amazement with what he did with a pretty small bag of bowing tricks. I think probably (again...amateur self-taught thinking here and I don't know any other fiddlers in person) it's likely that lots of OT fiddlers have a favorite bowing "pattern," or shuffle or pattern consisting of parts of shuffles...that they rely on to get them through the majority of tunes. If you're comfort level is optimal, you could easily jump in and out, change up...put a few little extra tricky-sounding little twists, and yet hang onto and rely on your trusty go-to shuffle.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 12/17/2023 17:29:22

doryman - Posted - 12/17/2023:  18:18:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

doryman - At about 3:00 there's a section where she's "shuffling" and its easier to hear (especially slowed down a little). It isn't Nashville shuffle, and I don't know how to notate it here. Its sort of "Long, dee dee DEE dum DUM (held until it starts again. Its a little syncopated, but mostly just done with emphasis. I think she varies it some during the song, although I was surprised that I think the plays the fiddle break the same way every time.

I posted the link to the Heartbeats so you could see how she finds a riff that emphasizes or works off the rhythm of the song. Similar thing here. Maybe somebody else can notate it more precisely.

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Good stuff Doug, thanks.

doryman - Posted - 12/17/2023:  18:19:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

When I finally got to a jam in WV led by John Morris...to me one of the very best OT fiddlers of our time...I was amazed that he has a habitual shuffle thing going on all the time that is pretty much just "fiddled" with to vary it up here and there...and from that, mainly that in his playing from what I could see...and this was at least 20 years back...but what I think I'm remembering is my amazement with what he did with a pretty small bag of bowing tricks. I think probably (again...amateur self-taught thinking here and I don't know any other fiddlers in person) it's likely that lots of OT fiddlers have a favorite bowing "pattern," or shuffle or pattern consisting of parts of shuffles...that they rely on to get them through the majority of tunes. If you're comfort level is optimal, you could easily jump in and out, change up...put a few little extra tricky-sounding little twists, and yet hang onto and rely on your trusty go-to shuffle.

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Yes.  Right now my bag of tricks is very small and mostly empty!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/17/2023:  18:35:11

Well remember we just have two choices...up or down...lol.

farmerjones - Posted - 12/17/2023:  19:19:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Well remember we just have two choices...up or down...lol.

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I beg to differ, my deer friend. If you put a hammer-on or a pull-off, along with that uppy-downy you've got quite a complicated little thing. (Borders on Magic) 

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/18/2023:  05:16:18

True, it gets complicated because of the left hand. The right hand still has only two choices. Reminds me of Dwight Diller's advice on clawhammer..."Don't let the left hand be the boss." And he meant to keep the right hand groove true in and of itself...the left hand will throw in all the conflict and complications...together it's a great sound...if they act independently. I did find a video I once made, as John mentioned above... it's not great but my explanation of how I envision bowing and noting and how the interplay works for me...I mean, at least I THINK it works for me...lol...I have no place to play, haven't played that long (less than 20 years or around 20 years maybe as a self-taught amateur)...but how it seems to work for me... I made this video for a friend who was discussing this stuff with me and I find it really hard to put into words... youtu.be/Zvg06JHmF18?si=ZYaGLBj1x1yZUE1t

But I'm more familiar with banjo playing than fiddle, having messed around with banjo throughout the decades...as a self-taught amateur who happened onto Dwight Diller around maybe the late 90s and then adapted my clawhammering some through his influence. Anyway, I also made a banjo video for discussion about independent interplay of both hands and what-all that does. I think, at least for me, it's very similar to what happens with fiddle N. Shuffle...although not exactly. Dwight and I had many lengthy discussions over emails about these ideas for years...we had our conflicts concerning fiddling but I think the big person he was he heard me out and respected my ideas...although he was a musical genius of our time and had some different ideas...I learned a lot from him. I gotta say I learned a lot from online discussions with member RichJ...who inspired me to try to make videos to continue some of our discussions. And this banjo video, like the fiddling video above, was made in response to some of our discussions. It aint perfect...I ain't a musician for real and I ain't a teacher either...but just putting in my two cents, or possibly less value to it than that...still...food for thought maybe. Here's that banjo video about the hands in opposition to create a natural groove and syncopation with the melody. youtu.be/T41ITAhw01c?si=CT2u5k7iA0eaGgVE

Earworm - Posted - 12/18/2023:  05:34:59

Thanks for this thread. I hadn't known about Tara Nevins before and I'm really enjoying her.

DougD - Posted - 12/18/2023:  08:52:23

doryman - Not sure exactly what you were asking, but as far as technique, she is just bowing normally, as you can see in the Heartbeats video, and as Peggy said, there's only up and down to choose from. There's a school of percussive playing that uses a "chop," and a couple players in that style have been mentioned here, but that's not what this is.
As far as being a "known shuffle" I wouldn't know since I don't think that way, but in any case the "drive" you're hearing doesn't come from a pattern. It comes from Tara.
Here's another song from the Heartbeats. No video, and the accordion is playing too, and its hard to separate them, but its a similar riff based idea.
youtu.be/kLV8aI6rUkA

farmerjones - Posted - 12/18/2023:  09:08:00

youtu.be/ZZzoM5dL4YQ?si=rREewn8SMjTeuZ1B

OK, one last one, and I'll quit. I'm really glad for this thread.

DougD - Posted - 12/18/2023:  09:16:07

Another good one. Its easier to separate the fiddle from Rose's accordion.
Then of course there's Donna the Buffalo....

doryman - Posted - 12/18/2023:  09:55:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

doryman - Not sure exactly what you were asking, but as far as technique, she is just bowing normally, as you can see in the Heartbeats video, and as Peggy said, there's only up and down to choose from. There's a school of percussive playing that uses a "chop," and a couple players in that style have been mentioned here, but that's not what this is.

As far as being a "known shuffle" I wouldn't know since I don't think that way, but in any case the "drive" you're hearing doesn't come from a pattern. It comes from Tara.

Here's another song from the Heartbeats. No video, and the accordion is playing too, and its hard to separate them, but its a similar riff based idea.

youtu.be/kLV8aI6rUkA

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Hey Doug, you got to the heart of it in your last post, which was very helpful.  Basically, I was trying to figure out if that driving pattern at 3:00 minutes was a known shuffle pattern to others (but unknown to me).  

buckhenry - Posted - 12/18/2023:  16:35:14

quote:

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Originally posted by AlleghenyFront

Darol Anger and Bruce Molsky come to mind: youtu.be/5gaOX0XrS8g

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I think the answer you're seeking is in this video. As Darol demonstrates three common bow shuffles he also states that these shuffles can be "broken up" ie to mix in other bowings, and this happens in the introduction where Tara includes some long bows after about 2 bars of the 'single shuffle'. At 0.37 and 3.00, again we have the 'single shuffle', but in between each phrase is a new rhythm.... '&UDU' then the shuffle, thus ...&UDU D-UD &UDU D-UD. 

TuneWeaver - Posted - 12/19/2023:  18:35:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Good suggestion. I was a little surprised there wasn't more of Tara's "non Donna" fiddling on YouTube, but here's another side of her music that might be helpful: youtu.be/G43H8FqkqCI

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One thing I hear in that video is what I call a 'saw-shuffle'...Saw stroke but emphasis on the third of four notes..Nice stuff.

buckhenry - Posted - 12/20/2023:  12:33:08

One thing I hear in that video is what I call a 'saw-shuffle'

Actually that rhythm is taught to Suzuki kids when they've learned to play Twinkle, Twinkle.

There are a few 'anchor' words, but the kids really like 'Mississippi Ri-ver'.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 12/20/2023:  14:00:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

One thing I hear in that video is what I call a 'saw-shuffle'

Actually that rhythm is taught to Suzuki kids when they've learned to play Twinkle, Twinkle.

There are a few 'anchor' words, but the kids really like 'Mississippi Ri-ver'.

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Yes, I remember those things from my own kid's lessons.. I learned a lot while watching the lessons.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 12/20/2023:  14:35:08

Tara is an inspirational person.. With the help of a Hangout member who did some transcribing, I was able to learn Nine Days in Bethel by the Heartbeats.. the rhythmic stuff is fun to play..So, today while busking, inspired by Tara, I spent some time just doing various rhythmic stuff with drones and bouncing off of two strings.. It was fun. It was't a tune but it still sounded good to passersby..

Brian Wood - Posted - 12/20/2023:  14:57:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Tara is an inspirational person.. With the help of a Hangout member who did some transcribing, I was able to learn Nine Days in Bethel by the Heartbeats.. the rhythmic stuff is fun to play..So, today while busking, inspired by Tara, I spent some time just doing various rhythmic stuff with drones and bouncing off of two strings.. It was fun. It was't a tune but it still sounded good to passersby..

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I've been playing her version of Breaking Up Christmas for the past week or so. It's one of those basic breakdowns I always thought I should know but had never learned til now. She's great.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 12/20/2023:  15:02:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

---

Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Tara is an inspirational person.. With the help of a Hangout member who did some transcribing, I was able to learn Nine Days in Bethel by the Heartbeats.. the rhythmic stuff is fun to play..So, today while busking, inspired by Tara, I spent some time just doing various rhythmic stuff with drones and bouncing off of two strings.. It was fun. It was't a tune but it still sounded good to passersby..

---

I've been playing her version of Breaking Up Christmas for the past week or so. It's one of those basic breakdowns I always thought I should know but had never learned til now. She's great.

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Folks, the secret is out.. BRIAN transcribed the tune for me..!!  Now I have to track down her version of Breaking Up Christmas.. Brian? do you have a link? Never mind.. I found the link!!

In the OP the poster asks what Tara is doing in  a particular song... I suspect that with the tune Breaking Up Christmas she didn't just look at a sheet music version and think, "So, THIS is how it is to be played!!"  No, I suspect that she just puts HERSELF into the tune EVEN IF she learned it from sheet music!!   Just a thought..

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 12/20/2023 15:11:54

doryman - Posted - 12/20/2023:  18:08:33

This thread has some legs!!!

TuneWeaver - Posted - 12/20/2023:  18:25:41

It has a life of its own!! and it is a good one..

Brian Wood - Posted - 12/21/2023:  09:00:21

Here's an even better video of Tera Nevins playing Breaking Up Christmas





 

DougD - Posted - 12/21/2023:  14:25:31

I like it when she more or less commands Rose to come and play with her! Its hard to believe that was almost 35 years ago.

DougD - Posted - 12/21/2023:  15:32:45

BTW, as far as Tara learning "Breakin' Up Christmas" I doubt there was any sheet music involved. Tara's younger than I am, but I think she's old enough to have heard, and probably seen Tommy Jarrell play this tune, which is how most of us learned it back then.
Getting to be time to dust it off again!

Edited by - DougD on 12/21/2023 15:33:48

Brian Wood - Posted - 12/21/2023:  15:51:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

BTW, as far as Tara learning "Breakin' Up Christmas" I doubt there was any sheet music involved. Tara's younger than I am, but I think she's old enough to have heard, and probably seen Tommy Jarrell play this tune, which is how most of us learned it back then.

Getting to be time to dust it off again!

---

I bet you're right. Tommy Jarrell's version can be found on YouTube as well. I just transcribed Tara's version because that's one way I learn (and it's on my site for others if they want). Learning old time by listening is the grand tradition.

fiddlr - Posted - 01/28/2025:  18:34:18

quote:Originally posted by dorymanHi All, I've recently discovered the fiddle playing of Tara Nevins and really enjoy it. I've copied here a link to a YouTube video wherein her band is playing Rocky Island and, in numerous places (first starting at about 37 seconds), Tara plays some kind of droney, rhythmic shuffle thing. It's got a lot of drive. Does any one know exactly what she is doing? Is it some kind of known shuffle pattern? I would sure like to learn how to do it. I'll also add that the clawhammer banjo playing that kicks it off is wonderful too.

youtube.com/watch?v=1V60isFZcSI

Hi John, I'm new to fiddle hangout and trying to learn how to reply. I sent you 2 private messages with some information to answer your question. I've been playing OT fiddle since 1982, but I've learned entirely by ear. So, sorry I'm not able to send notation. But what I call the style is the double saw-stroke. Simply put, a normal shuffle is a down-up sequence with the bow for each beat. The double saw stroke is literally down-up-down-up for each beat. I'm trying to figure out how to attach an mp3, but I don't know how to select one from my hard drive. I clicked mp3 and one of my mp3s magically appeared but not the one I wanted to send. I.m trying to remove it but gosh this is confusing...

Edited by - fiddlr on 01/28/2025 18:48:45

fiddlr