mikeburns - Posted - 03/14/2023:  11:03:30

I keep seeing and reading about how versatile and powerful pentatonic scales are. How and when are they primarily used?

Brian Wood - Posted - 03/14/2023:  11:16:22

quote:

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Originally posted by mikeburns

I keep seeing and reading about how versatile and powerful pentatonic scales are. How and when are they primarily used?

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They simplify things by leaving 2 notes out of the scale. 1-2-3-5-6. Many melodies use it. As you see the name of this scale represents the number of notes before making an octave.  IMO relying on them exclusively is limiting. For soloing it can become simplistic and formulaic.

Edited by - Brian Wood on 03/14/2023 11:17:38

RichJ - Posted - 03/14/2023:  11:17:28

Think I remember hearing something to the effect you can't play a "wrong" note if you play notes of a pentatonic scale that's in the same key as the tune being played. Does that sound right?

doryman - Posted - 03/14/2023:  11:18:45

For a beginner fiddler like me, if you use the pentatonic scale for any given key signature, you can stick to those five notes and basically not go wrong for 90% of the songs you might encounter in a typical bluegrass/folk/OT jam. You don't even have to change the scale to match the specific chords that are being played within the key.



For example, if someone calls out a standard song in the key of G, with the chords G, C and D featured in the song (I,IV,V), which is very common, you can play the G pentatonic through the entire song, or when you take the lead. Heck, more than half the time the melody is right there in the pentatonic.



This is especially useful when you don't exactly know the melody to a song that's being called. You can fake it with the pentatonic scale and it will sound fine.



It's not hard to learn the pentatonics in the first position. If you memorize them (easy enough to do), they can get you through a lot of situations. For a beginner, they are the first step towards improvisation, in my opinion.

Edited by - doryman on 03/14/2023 11:23:28

doryman - Posted - 03/14/2023:  11:22:43

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

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 IMO relying on them exclusively is limiting. For soloing it can become simplistic and formulaic.

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I agree with this, but for a beginning fiddler, the pentatonic scale can also open up the world of improvisation for them.  

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/14/2023:  12:04:11

As everybody says. Plus, it sounds absolutely wonderful. Sincere, straightforward and fun.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/14/2023:  13:06:08

Stay on the I chord minor pentatonic for blues and move with the chords for major pentatonic country sound. Mix in minor pentatonic to the major pentatonic for country-blues flavor. BTW to make major pentatonic into minor pentatonic keep the 1 & 5 of the scale as is and move the other three notes up a half-step, of course reverse to change back to major pentatonic. It's also common to play major pentatonic on the 1 & 4 chords and minor pentatonic on the 5 chord, got it!

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 03/14/2023:  13:18:46

If you're talking a major key (ionian mode), add the 7th to it. And don't forget to "Flat" the 3rd and 7th!

(Done right, this will make listeners weep, guaranteed)

stumpkicker - Posted - 03/14/2023:  13:38:46

quote:

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Originally posted by Flat_the_3rd_n7th

If you're talking a major key (ionian mode), add the 7th to it. And don't forget to "Flat" the 3rd and 7th!



(Done right, this will make listeners weep, guaranteed)

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Bah! Humbug! I don't need no flatted 3rd and 7th to make my listeners weep! 

farmerjones - Posted - 03/14/2023:  13:41:20

I wouldn't be for playing the whole scale through the whole tune/song. I'd change the arpeggio/scale as the chords change. It's a way of playing along to a tune/song. It could be a stepping stone towards fleshing out the melody. It's probably in there somewhere. Hint: don't forget to practice descending as well as ascending scales.

coryobert - Posted - 03/14/2023:  14:10:02

"Stay on the I chord minor pentatonic for blues and move with the chords for major pentatonic country sound."
This is the explanation that I've been searching for for the last 30 years.

old cowboy - Posted - 03/14/2023:  17:13:58

you will never go wrong practicing this scale. play it slow play it fast long bow shuffle bow it all sounds so purdy! Dont it ?

doryman - Posted - 03/14/2023:  18:19:56

quote:

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Originally posted by stumpkicker

quote:

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Originally posted by Flat_the_3rd_n7th

If you're talking a major key (ionian mode), add the 7th to it. And don't forget to "Flat" the 3rd and 7th!



(Done right, this will make listeners weep, guaranteed)

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Bah! Humbug! I don't need no flatted 3rd and 7th to make my listeners weep! 

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My family cries every time I pick up the fiddle!

buckhenry - Posted - 03/14/2023:  19:35:41

I use them as already mentioned. Every chord has its pentatonic, they can be superimposed (like the minor pent over the major chord, etc.) and they can be altered (eg; swapping the 6th for the b7 in a Dom chord). Pentatonics can also include semi-tones (there is a term for that but cant be bothered looking it up). Play 1 2 3 5 6 over every chord in the key (1 being the tonic note of the chord) but dont alter any notes of the key, and you'll come up with some exotic scales that do exist in other cultures. As already stated, 5 notes are very limiting, so I include them with the usual scales. If I'm fiddling away in a 7 note scale I would swap back and forth to the penta just for added flavour...

Edited by - buckhenry on 03/14/2023 19:38:26

Erockin - Posted - 03/15/2023:  04:50:32

Just poured a cup and going to go through this thread. Awesome topic!

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/15/2023:  08:11:03

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Stay on the I chord minor pentatonic for blues and move with the chords for major pentatonic country sound. Mix in minor pentatonic to the major pentatonic for country-blues flavor. BTW to make major pentatonic into minor pentatonic keep the 1 & 5 of the scale as is and move the other three notes up a half-step, of course reverse to change back to major pentatonic. It's also common to play major pentatonic on the 1 & 4 chords and minor pentatonic on the 5 chord, got it!

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Addendum:

Another way is to constantly stay on the 1 chord major pentatonic and flat the 3rd during the IV chord and then move the 1 down to a 7 during the V chord.

stumpkicker - Posted - 03/15/2023:  09:13:33

Seriously though… here’s a really good video to start with.. After teaching you the scale he takes you through “Banks of the Ohio” via call-and-response.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=5uZu_FO2kHM

After that one go to the minor pentatonic video,

Highly Recommended!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/15/2023:  13:39:01

Like other aspects of music theory stuff*, I think of more as a description of concepts... not necessarily a set of instructions or rules. Usefulness comes in recognizing what's going on in a melody, melodic concepts.

Pentatonic space or framework of a given key, are the primary intervals that carry the melodic weight. Pentatonic based melodies are ones that stick primarily to that pentatonic idea. It's not necessary absolutism, exclusion of all other notes; as they can be incorporated into that framework in different ways. Sometimes just as weak connecting or leading notes. Sometimes can reinforce that pentatonic idea, by creating a bit of tension, suspension and then resolve. Sometimes just for or harmonic context (not necessarily melodic).

 For me, once recognize the sound quality of that pentatonic based framework, notice it in a lot of melodic phrases, it's incredibly common; again not absolutism, but accounts for vast majority. That I find useful for picking up those those type of melodic phrases quickly and by ear. 

I also find the pentatonic framework often useful for framing the physical layout of fingering... those create the anchor points. Some ways similar to chord tone framing/anchor, as extension of that.

*This might sound a bit more academic, theory geeky than actual is (or was in my case)... it mostly intuitive, comes with just playing lot's of tunes/songs, and just bit of noticing melodies that are just these 5 notes, and how they can be constructed in many different interesting ways, yet seem intuitive and sound good.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/15/2023 13:44:30

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/15/2023:  15:02:08

I thought I would mention aspect, observation about pentatonic that some might find useful; but gets mentioned as trick comes up in songwriting. Though it's a little more complex to explain.  

For major pentatonic; it's the idea of the add 6/9 melodic or extension; that can be applied over I, IV, V; shared or contained within a single pentatonic. [the 9 is referring to an add 9; essentially add 2... different than a 9 chord (with m7)].  For example, in G major the pentatonic notes are G, A, B, D, E. For the I chord, "G" the 6 is the "E", the 9 is "A"... again both in the key pentatonic. For the IV chord, "C" the 6 is the "A", the 9 is "D"... also both in the key pentatonic. For the V chord, "D" the 6 is the "B", the 9 is "E"... both in the key pentatonic.

In a similar way, the minor pentatonic; but rather shares the idea of minor 7 and fourth, in I, IV, V. For example, in A, minor pentatonic notes are A, C, D, E, G. For the I chord, "A" the 7 is the "G", the 4 is "D"... both in the key pentatonic. For the IV chord, "D" the 7 is the "C", the 4 is "G"... also both in the key pentatonic. For the V chord, "E" the 7 is the "D", the 4 is "A"... again both in the key pentatonic. (one aspect is that it shifts focus away from major/minor thirds of the chords)

These might be useful? That 6 sound (over all chords) appears in classic country for example. The add 9 is used to start melodic ideas in a lot of current pop songwriting (and can be used with II or ii chord, as key of G, B note is 9 of "A" chord). 

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/15/2023 15:08:56

buckhenry - Posted - 03/15/2023:  16:55:26

..... flat the 3rd during the IV chord and then move the 1 down to a 7 during the V chord.....

I think this means to 'sharpen' the third to make F; thus for the IV =  C D F G A

And flat the 1  for V chord = B D E G A 

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 03/15/2023:  18:29:02

Lot of theory here that I enjoy reading, and comparing with my current technique (though I think we're talking the same thing in different language), but no way could employ at tempo. It all needs to be practiced into muscle memory.

Y'all should stew this into a FHO "hand pattern" book. Sold!

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/15/2023:  19:37:06

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

..... flat the 3rd during the IV chord and then move the 1 down to a 7 during the V chord.....

I think this means to 'sharpen' the third to make F; thus for the IV =  C D F G A

And flat the 1  for V chord = B D E G A 

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Yes, sometimes the 4 is the way to go to keep it vanilla and the b3 is my favorite way to add some blues. Thanks Henry for the feedback, it shows some people are getting the idea.

buckhenry - Posted - 03/15/2023:  22:55:32

....it shows some people are getting the idea...

That's the thing; 'there are many ways to express the same idea'.. as Scott mentioned.."same thing in different language"

I've never seen the major pentatonics as 'sharpen 3rd and flat 1st' of the key penta to arrive at the penta for IV and V chords.

I just learnt 1 2 3 5 6 applied to the root of each chord. 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/16/2023:  13:25:50

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

....it shows some people are getting the idea...

That's the thing; 'there are many ways to express the same idea'.. as Scott mentioned.."same thing in different language"

I've never seen the major pentatonics as 'sharpen 3rd and flat 1st' of the key penta to arrive at the penta for IV and V chords.

I just learnt 1 2 3 5 6 applied to the root of each chord. 

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Sorry Henry, I slipped into "Parent Key" terminology without stating so in the post.

 

 

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Earworm - Posted - 03/17/2023:  07:08:35

I just heard this song last night on a podcast, but found it on YouTube: Keep Your Lamp Trimmed and Burning, played by Scott Ainslie. He plays it on banjo, but discussion of pentatonic reminded me of it. I find that theory discussions make my brains all blurry until I have real music to connect it with. By the way, I found it by way of the "Floyd Radio Show" podcast. I think I need to spend more time listening to that, they have some really great things. Anyway, I hope enjoy Scott Ainslie's performance.

Kye - Posted - 03/22/2023:  20:13:16

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

I use them as already mentioned. Every chord has its pentatonic, they can be superimposed (like the minor pent over the major chord, etc.) and they can be altered (eg; swapping the 6th for the b7 in a Dom chord). Pentatonics can also include semi-tones (there is a term for that but cant be bothered looking it up). Play 1 2 3 5 6 over every chord in the key (1 being the tonic note of the chord) but dont alter any notes of the key, and you'll come up with some exotic scales that do exist in other cultures. As already stated, 5 notes are very limiting, so I include them with the usual scales. If I'm fiddling away in a 7 note scale I would swap back and forth to the penta just for added flavour...

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I love the words I'm reading, but I can't hear it. Have you seen a video demo anywhere? Thanks!

buckhenry - Posted - 03/23/2023:  00:43:07

quote:

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Originally posted by Kye

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

I use them as already mentioned. Every chord has its pentatonic, they can be superimposed (like the minor pent over the major chord, etc.) and they can be altered (eg; swapping the 6th for the b7 in a Dom chord). Pentatonics can also include semi-tones (there is a term for that but cant be bothered looking it up). Play 1 2 3 5 6 over every chord in the key (1 being the tonic note of the chord) but dont alter any notes of the key, and you'll come up with some exotic scales that do exist in other cultures. As already stated, 5 notes are very limiting, so I include them with the usual scales. If I'm fiddling away in a 7 note scale I would swap back and forth to the penta just for added flavour...

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I love the words I'm reading, but I can't hear it. Have you seen a video demo anywhere? Thanks!

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I've never seen a vid covering all these aspects, I just gathered them from many sources, and from experimenting.

Give it a go.. If you have any questions just drop me a line...

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/12/2024:  13:43:44

One octave of a 7 note scale (plus the octave), on adjacent strings on a standard tuned fiddle, contains two pentatonic scales.

For example A Major contains the A major pentatonic, and the B minor pentatonic on handy adjacent strings.

All notes of the two pentatonic scales contained within the seven note A Major scale, (A maj Pent, & B min Pent) harmonize with each other.

So since the IIm chord can be a substitute for the IV chord you can form a Plagal (Amen) cadence between the two pentatonic scales contained within the one octave of the 7 note A Major scale on adjacent strings within one octave. and use an A drone beneath to form a tune that has a logical "key centre" and use the I and IV chords to accompany it.

Add the Devils interval...The V7 or diminished interval to the accompaniment to create more tension, and you have a simple tune with 3 chords. Or just use the I and IV chords. Or just the A drone and let the melody form the cadences.

All this( and more), within one octave of the 7 note A Major scale. using 3 fingers and 2 strings tuned in 5ths....

haggis - Posted - 04/23/2024:  10:01:41

Tne pentatonic scale's worth lies not only in its use as a valuable improvising tool.
It is an easy road map around the fingerboard upon which you can hang other notes to make e.g. Major, minor, all the modes of same, bebop , blues and country scales. Arpeggios, minor, major and dominant. Furthermore it underpins a lot of Scottsh and Irish music.

Erockin - Posted - 04/23/2024:  10:12:58

quote:

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Originally posted by haggis

Tne pentatonic scale's worth lies not only in its use as a valuable improvising tool.

It is an easy road map around the fingerboard upon which you can hang other notes to make e.g. Major, minor, all the modes of same, bebop , blues and country scales. Arpeggios, minor, major and dominant. Furthermore it underpins a lot of Scottsh and Irish music.

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I wish I could pick up on this more...especially for improvising. 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/23/2024:  11:54:00

Pentatonic Scales are one level up from Chord triads

Eg: CEG Major triad.... CDEGA = C Major Pentatonic scale.

ACE minor triad, ACDEG = A minor pentatonic scale

The most common use of them is to ADD a b3 to the Major pentatonic to make a Major blues scale. C,D,Eb,E,G,A, (C)

Or ADD a #4 to the minor pentatonic to make a minor blues scale. A, C, D, Eb,E, G, (A)

Play around with the first part of "Oh Susannah" for a bit and you will soon get the gist

Dick Hauser - Posted - 05/28/2024:  07:27:36

I often have the same problem. Here is my guess. There is major diatonic scale and minor pentatonic scale. I use the minor pentatonic scale more often. There is only one note difference between the minor pentatonic scale and the blues scale. So it can give a "lick" that bluesy sound. When we play a tune, all notes are not part of the melody. Other note serve to transition from one note/chord to another, to facilitate a change to another chord, etc.. I would guess that if a person wanted to use a pentatonic scale for a tune/lick, the melody notes would be notes from the diatonic scale. But notes used for other purposes would not have to be included in the diatonic scale.

I have hopes of meeting a musician who can provide an indepth explanation for your question.
It is easy to learn what major and minor pentatonic scales are. The hard part is understanding just how to apply them.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 05/28/2024:  12:58:07

If you want to do a solo, you can just about go anywhere on the key's pentatonic scale. You can pretty much start anywhere on the scale, too. If you play it as if you mean it, chances are good it'll sound a heck of a lot better than you expect. Practice the scale a bit. Get familiar with its personality. See if anything strikes your ear fancy.

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 07/30/2024:  02:58:24

They're a good place to find your doublestop scales in any key. I can't help but seeing the pentatonic grid on any tune I play. I can't unsee it.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 07/30/2024:  07:37:44

There are 2 pentatonic scales, a major and a minor. I find the minor pentatonic scale more useful. With the exception of one note, it is the same scale as the blues scale. So learn some "licks" for the minor pentatonic scales and try substituting them for the the notes you are currently playing. Adding a little "bluesy' sound might add a little variety to your playing. I had to use trial and error to figure where the licks will "fit". A tunes characteristics indicate where certain licks will work. Tunes like "Man of Constant Sorrow" beg for these licks. On the banjo the "trial and error" method and your "ear" indicate where a lick might be used. You will just be doing that on the fiddle. The lick is a substitute for the original melody notes. Like anything else, the more you do this, the better you get.

learn2turn - Posted - 02/10/2025:  09:35:12

It's often said that you can hit a "clam" (dissident/sour sounding note) on a pentatonic scale over the current chords. That's because no note on the pentatonic scale is within a halftone of a chord tone. G Major chord G-B-D. G Major Pentatonic G-A-B-D-E. There's a full step between G/A, A/B, and D/E. So you generally safe to play those notes almost anytime. That makes it a great starting points. But you can do more interesting things by mixing in more notes and resolving to chord tones.

One of the best pieces of advice I've read is that how dissident a note sounds depends very much on when it's played. For example, on a downbeat, a note that may clash with a chord tone will sound quite dissident whereas on an upbeat, it might just provide movement which can resolve on the next down beat. So playing the 4th on an upbeat and moving to the 3rd on the downbeat provides a tad of tension and resolution without sounding dissident. And that's why sliding from a flatted 3rd to a 3rd sounds cool.

Brian Wood - Posted - 02/10/2025:  13:00:23

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Originally posted by learn2turn

One of the best pieces of advice I've read is that how dissident a note sounds depends very much on when it's played. For example, on a downbeat, a note that may clash with a chord tone will sound quite dissident whereas on an upbeat, it might just provide movement which can resolve on the next down beat. So playing the 4th on an upbeat and moving to the 3rd on the downbeat provides a tad of tension and resolution without sounding dissident. And that's why sliding from a flatted 3rd to a 3rd sounds cool.

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Sometimes the most unpleasant wrong notes are 2 notes in a row that give the clue that you're hitting a wrong sequence rather than just one questionable note. That can happen when you put your hand in the wrong position briefly, or start on the wrong string. A single weird note can usually be resolved into something if you're clever.

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/10/2025:  16:06:13

You're only a half step away from the right note if you're playing in most standard keys/modes.