NCnotes - Posted - 03/09/2023:  12:01:00

So I'm going bow-shopping next week* at the luthier's (I had noticed that he always has lots of bows hanging on his wall)!

I've been playing since I was a kid, so I know what I like in "feel" and "handling" - but I am wondering...

are there other things I should look for besides just what feels/sounds good?



(*I had a nice Brazilian bow that got warped/eaten by bowbugs when I had a long gap in playing...I replaced it with a $79 student bow shrinkwrapped in plastic that I bought off the shelf at local music store ...and over time I have developed a huge dislike for this bow, which now needs rehairing anyway...so it's time!)

DougD - Posted - 03/09/2023:  12:23:53

I'm curious what you did with your "nice Brazilian bow?" Bows can certainly be rehaired, and often warpage can be corrected.
Other than that I have no advice. I only went "bow shopping" once, and I'd say its probably a good idea to have a budget in mind (and possibly be willing to exceed it a bit if something good turns up, which is what I did).

farmerjones - Posted - 03/09/2023:  13:16:34

Most bows wear me out trying to pull sound like my bow.
So, , uh,,,, there's like, , ,sound, , and uh, , ,feel. Sorry.
What do you or don't you like about the bows you've already played?

DougD - Posted - 03/09/2023:  15:35:53

Of course there's always the quality of materials and workmanship, but as someone who can't tell the difference between Pernambuco and Brazilwood I'm not much help. Then there's "half mounted" vs "fully mounted" and nickel silver vs real silver, but your luthier can help you with that. At a certain level I guess the maker affects value, but the "stamp" is often misleading, just like labels in violins.

NCnotes - Posted - 03/09/2023:  15:38:24

Yea I left my nice Brazilian bow (expensive) in closed case for a few years when I didn't play...I was mostly playing classical guitar and barely touched my violin...when I took it out again, the bow had no hair (it all fell off and was lying in the case) and when I brought it in to luthier to put its hair back on, luthier said it had gotten warped and could not be redeemed. :-(



But that was a really nice bow - good balance, easy string crossings, can play fast. This $79 student bow is lightweight, it skips and slides if I'm not careful, it doesn't get good tone, and I have trouble getting soft vs loud (which is kind of odd, I don't know why that would be, but the old bow could whisper and shout). But I put up with it for a couple of years now, and now that I'm playing more, I figure I can get a decent bow again...(maybe I could actually do "crunchy" triplets...I have not been able to do that with this bow!).



I dunno if there are certain bows that are "better built" and "last longer"... or if I should be looking for anything ...



My first bow, I just picked by sound and feel.

Maybe that's really all there is to it!?

Edited by - NCnotes on 03/09/2023 15:41:26

Swing - Posted - 03/09/2023:  15:41:13

Don't overlook carbon fiber bows.... they come in a wide range of prices and tone qualities.... a good shop will send out tow or three for you to try.... just like wooden bows, the carbon fiber ones can produce different qualities such as warm tones etc... they also can feel different and to weight and how they feel such as tip heavy or frog heavy... I just tried three carbon fiber bows and bought the one that felt like my good pernambuco bow...

Play Happy

Swing

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 03/09/2023:  15:59:37

Yes... carbon fiber are worthwhile and stout... Shar is one of those dealers that will send you some to audition... Insofar as bows are concerned the weight , balance, flexibility, tip heave or frog heavy, workmanship, condition of hair, "bounce factor" are what I "look" at first. Pulling a good tone without a great deal of effort is the goal. Pernambuco makes a lovely bow. French bows are more than I can afford, I do have a couple of nice German bows..... It is often said when you are thinking about getting a better fiddle get a better bow first. Also said, spend one and half to twice what you spend on o fiddle on a bow. Play on folks... R/

NCnotes - Posted - 03/09/2023:  17:46:41

Wow - I had no idea that a bow even could or should cost more than a fiddle??!

DougD - Posted - 03/09/2023:  17:57:01

Here's a dealer with some fine bows for sale that are fun to look at: benningviolins.com/Fine-Violin...Sale.html

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 03/09/2023:  18:37:37

It's like Dickens' "Tale of Two Cities"--it was the best of times, it was the worst of times...



Pernambuco covers the 'off the string' bow strokes well--spiccato, sautille'. And intricate pianissimo.

BUT, I find them too flabby and bouncy when you come to the playing required in Irish or Bluegrass; any type of kickoff at the frog or cut at the balance point almost always gives a wobbly sound.



I am a long bow fiddler--I use the whole thing, but I'm heavy-handed. I'm almost always bowing close to the bridge, and I value a firm stick.



So, for me--nothing besides a Codabow Diamond GX ever again. I have several, so I can rotate between rehairings. Good luck, enjoy the search, and if your financial situation allows, SPLURGE! (Cause you can't take it with you)

Edited by - Flat_the_3rd_n7th on 03/09/2023 18:40:33

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/09/2023:  20:18:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Here's a dealer with some fine bows for sale that are fun to look at: benningviolins.com/Fine-Violin...Sale.html

---

For a long, long time didn't live far from Benning Violins, and I bought my best fiddle and bow from them. I played many fine carbon fiber bows when I shopped there, but I wound up with a truly excellent wooden one that was comparably priced. It just had more personality and feel. In any event, it's a first class music shop in a town that has more than a few of them.

farmerjones - Posted - 03/09/2023:  22:05:43

One thing about Coda bows, if you find one you like, they're made, so they're repeatable made. Whereas Brazil wood or Pernambuco bows, personally I don't think price has much baring. I think it's kinda like a unicorn hunt. I feel very lucky to find what I've found and doubt, I could find another, especially that model at that price.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 03/10/2023:  01:16:21

There are a number of things to consider when buying a bow, such as speed of response, attack, balance, weight, compatibility with your violin, cleanness of sound, richness of sound, quality of workmanship, and condition.

It is true that bows are individual and that different players may perceive them somewhat differently, but there are some things on my list above that are not related to perception.

Some players focus on a weight more than anything else, and while it’s true that 60g is currently considered the ideal weight for a bow, balance is much more important. Good makers are extremely meticulous about getting the balance point exactly where it’s supposed to be and will make very careful micro adjustments to the fittings to make sure it’s right. Factory production bows are not held to the same standards because that would drive the cost up prohibitively, and this is one reason why many mass produced bows of the same model and make will play so differently, and this is just as true of carbon fiber bows as it is of wood bows.

In general, carbon fiber bows are much stiffer, as the material itself has much less flexibility than pernambuco. Not all carbon fiber is the same, either, as one can find bows that are made with unidirectional carbon, braided carbon, or hollow tubes. Add to that the amount of resin used in the process of construction and things vary quite a lot.

Pernambuco is more flexible and when worked well can give a fuller and richer sound than anything else. A lot of what makes a bow work is the way it’s made just behind the head of the stick. This is why a break at the head is worth splining on a fine bow but a break behind the head essentially kills the stick. As a natural material, wood varies in density from piece to piece, even in each individual stick that’s made out of one board. Good bows are made taking this into account.

The bows that aficionados covet the most were made with spectacular pernambuco that was very dense, old-growth wood that we don’t see anymore. Modern makers face a difficult dilemma: how to try to reproduce the results of the greatest makers with softer wood (unless they are lucky enough to find some old-growth wood). If you simply copy the dimensions of a fine bow, the copy will look similar, but it won’t perform at all the same way. The great old bows often had thinner sticks, at least near the head, than what is common today. This was because the density of the wood allowed the makers to go thinner. The softer the wood, the thicker it has to be if you want to keep the bow from becoming a noodle. For this reason, one should approach “copy bows” with some trepidation.

There are some Brazilian companies that have the advantage of being able to use the old-growth wood that the government seized when it became apparent that the wood was a precious material (for centuries it was not really thought of as particularly valuable). By using this wood and by cutting costs by using German frogs, the Brazilian bows tend to be the best value in the $600-$3000 range. You do get more if you increase your price range, but that adds the considerations of authenticity and provenance to the mix, which can make matters a little trickier.

Mountings are a consideration that is often overlooked because it doesn’t bear directly on playability. The basic categories are nickel, silver, and gold. Nickel bows are the cheapest, so that makes the prices a little more accessible and attractive when you’re on a budget. The drawback is that nickel bows are extremely difficult to resell, and many people won’t even consider them. Many companies grade their sticks and put the best mountings on the best sticks, so in theory, gold-mounted bows should have the best sticks. However, gold is flashier and can sometimes mean more for collectibility than playability. If you ever intend to resell a bow, it’s worth thinking about this.

Setting a realistic budget is helpful. Let that budget reflect what you’re comfortable spending, not some kind of formula based on the value of the instrument. There’s a popular saying that if you have $10,000 to spend, the best thing you can buy is a bow, but that doesn’t mean you need to spend that amount. I’ve seen players on Broadway and in top tier orchestras rave about a bow they could buy for $250.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 03/10/2023:  04:39:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

Wow - I had no idea that a bow even could or should cost more than a fiddle??!

---

I was in a bow maker's shop once.. He said that he had an exact number of hairs on each bow and he would hold each hair up to the light to check for twists/clarity and thickness. He discarded a lot of  'inferior' hairs...Such attention to detail probably explains some of the  cost.  Just my thinking.

Erockin - Posted - 03/10/2023:  05:04:51

Good luck and please share what ya got!!!

DougD - Posted - 03/10/2023:  05:22:31

NCnotes - Sounds like you already have a pretty good idea of the qualities you desire in a bow - you just need to find one with those characteristics. Take your time and remember there's no shortage of bows out there. That said, my one "bow shopping" trip lasted about an hour, but I'm still playing with the one I chose from 6 or 8 candidates - 25 years later. I had to go "over budget" just a bit, but it was worth it. Good luck and keep us posted.

Edited by - DougD on 03/10/2023 05:23:33

tonyelder - Posted - 03/10/2023:  05:45:13

I've told the story before, but perhaps it would be worth repeating here. I went to Nashville during a trip home from Alaska one summer to see Fred Carpenter (The Violin Shop in Nashville). I was looking for a new bow. I brought my fiddle and my best bow with me. But I knew the bows I had were not expensive and I thought it was time to step up my game with a better (more expensive) bow.

I mention Fred because he was very helpful. He talked to me at length about the different kinds of bows and what to look for. As you can imagine, he had a great number of bows in his shop - well over a few hundred. He helped me pick out 5 or 6 bows in my price range and let me go back to a room in his shop to play my best - comparing my bow to the ones we selected.

I was slightly embarassed, but I left his shop without buying a bow. I couldn't hear of feel any improvement over what I had.

The advice (FWIW) - take your best fiddle and bow with you. You need that so you can have a good comparison with your potential choices.

The takeaway (FWIW) - if you can't hear or feel any noticeable improvement over what you have - then - one of two things need to be acknowledged: 1) You aren't at a skill level yet to recognize the difference, or there is nothing wrong with the bow you have. Either way - it would be wise to not spend your money on something that you don't need.

DougD - Posted - 03/10/2023:  06:56:51

NCnotes - I meant what did you do with your old bow after you were told it was useless. Burn it? Leave it with your luthier? Use it in the garden? If you still have it, really liked it, and especially if it was "expensive" (a relative term if there ever was one) it might be worth showing it to someone who specializes in bows, not just an ordinary luthier.

NCnotes - Posted - 03/10/2023:  07:57:09

Thank you for all the information!
I will keep all this in mind when I visit his shop next week.

Hmm my old bow was Brazilian wood (I don't know if it was pernambuco but probably not, because it was few hundred bucks)...it may be somewhere up there in storage...not sure I can dig it up! My suspicion is that I am a "wooden bow" type of person because I grew up playing with a wood bow and I like a warm 'romantic' kind of sound (and I've heard the carbon fiber bows are less likely to sound that way)...

But on the other hand, I am playing outside a lot more, and I hear that the carbon fiber bows are less prone to being hurt by humidity and temperature changes, etc! So carbon fiber seems like a practical choice.

I think I will only look at bows in my price range, and maybe a little above and a little below. I also can haul myself to Raleigh (Triangle Strings) and between those two places I should be able to find something...
Will let y'all know what I wind up with!

( And re Tony's takeaway - yep when I was shopping for a classical guitar I was playing several in my price range (under $2K) and then for kicks, I asked to try the $12K guitar. It did sound nicer, but not $10K worth of nicer! I just was not a good enough player to take advantage of it....sound mediocre on every guitar LOL! )

NCnotes - Posted - 03/10/2023:  08:04:13

PS And looking around online, people seem to really like the Codabow Diamond...as Flat the 3rd does...I want to try one of those, for sure. (What will my elderly violin think if I get a newfangled carbon bow, ha! :-)

tonyelder - Posted - 03/10/2023:  08:32:06

I eventually bought a Coda Bow Classic. Great bow, but... (full disclosure):



...it's not the only bow I use. 2 others (wooden) are a part of a fairly regular rotation.



...but, if the Classic was the only bow I owned, I would be satisfied.

I'm not looking for a new bow. I don't think I will ever be a "better" player than these bows will enable me to be.    (did that make sense?)

Swing - Posted - 03/10/2023:  09:05:28

I went one step farther in my bow selection...I ended up with a Coda Escent... it is very much like my good pernambuco bow... I can pick up either and they feel about the same... the reason for my selection was that my pernambuco bow was a bit soft for my five string fiddle... the Escent fills that void and yet plays well on my four string fiddles.....

Play Happy

Swing

gapbob - Posted - 03/10/2023:  09:58:00

Pernambucco can be strong or "flabby", depending on how it is made—it isn't the material.  But get the old bow rehaired!



quote:

---

Originally posted by Flat_the_3rd_n7th

It's like Dickens' "Tale of Two Cities"--it was the best of times, it was the worst of times...



Pernambuco covers the 'off the string' bow strokes well--spiccato, sautille'. And intricate pianissimo.

BUT, I find them too flabby and bouncy when you come to the playing required in Irish or Bluegrass; any type of kickoff at the frog or cut at the balance point almost always gives a wobbly sound.



I am a long bow fiddler--I use the whole thing, but I'm heavy-handed. I'm almost always bowing close to the bridge, and I value a firm stick.



So, for me--nothing besides a Codabow Diamond GX ever again. I have several, so I can rotate between rehairings. Good luck, enjoy the search, and if your financial situation allows, SPLURGE! (Cause you can't take it with you)

---

DougD - Posted - 03/10/2023:  10:40:26

NCnotes - Don't know what you mean by "Brazilian wood" exactly. Bows (today) are usually described as "Brazilwood" or Pernambuco (actually a state in Brazil), but they are apparently just from different parts of the same tree! So I wouldn't write off your old bow. Warpage can sometimes be corrected with heat, although whether that can be permanent I don't know. But that's how the camber is produced in the first place - by heating, and I think one reason these woods are used is because they respond well to heat. So it might be worth a look, even just as a spare.

Edited by - DougD on 03/10/2023 10:44:11

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/10/2023:  13:25:42

I have three fiddles and four bows. After endless experimenting and testing, I've matched the three fiddles with their preferred bow. Shokingly(!), the best bow is the one I use with the best fiddle. As for the fourth bow, I keep it in case something untoward happens in my fiddle universe.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 03/10/2023:  22:23:57

Brazilwood and pernambuco are sourced from the same tree. What differentiates them is that pernambuco is the “heartwood” of the tree, where the annual growth rings are the tightest and the density is at its highest, and brazilwood is the outer layers, which are much less dense. As you move closer to the heartwood, the line between the two can become hard to distinguish, but when you see bows of the two types, it’s generally easy to tell which is which at a glance.

Brazilwood bows are some of the cheapest bows because the wood is so soft that it doesn’t have the structural strength of pernambuco, and its weight is much lower. It warps much more easily and severely limits the tonal palette that one can access with pernambuco.

NCnotes - Posted - 03/11/2023:  06:38:13

Yes, my wood bow was described by the music store as Brazilian…
I doubt that my mom and I ( 14 year old kid and intermediate player at the time) would have gotten a pernambuco bow!! (Still it was much better than this current one… )

Informative thread - thank you!

I will have to try a pernambuco but I am sure it will be out of my price range :-)
( Also I hate to be part of the deforestation of Brazil… so there’s the eco side of things…)

farmerjones - Posted - 03/11/2023:  12:11:05

As Rich has said Brazil wood and Pernambuco are from the same tree. And his description is text book. But if you deal with a dealer, he may assume you don't know this. He may also pass judgment in his favor accordingly. Bending and blurring the line between Brazil wood and Pernambuco is the part of the bow dealing business that exists. Know this. That's all I'm going to say.

Quincy - Posted - 03/11/2023:  21:43:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Flat_the_3rd_n7th

It's like Dickens' "Tale of Two Cities"--it was the best of times, it was the worst of times...



Pernambuco covers the 'off the string' bow strokes well--spiccato, sautille'. And intricate pianissimo.

BUT, I find them too flabby and bouncy when you come to the playing required in Irish or Bluegrass; any type of kickoff at the frog or cut at the balance point almost always gives a wobbly sound.



I am a long bow fiddler--I use the whole thing, but I'm heavy-handed. I'm almost always bowing close to the bridge, and I value a firm stick.



So, for me--nothing besides a Codabow Diamond GX ever again. I have several, so I can rotate between rehairings. Good luck, enjoy the search, and if your financial situation allows, SPLURGE! (Cause you can't take it with you)

---

Sorry to drop in this thread NCNotes, I suppose I am using the whole bow as well and a Codabow is high on my wishing list. For my budget I am looking at a Codabow Prodigy...Not sure yet I need to do more research.

Quincy - Posted - 03/11/2023:  22:15:56

After research I want a Codabow Luma!!

rosinhead - Posted - 03/12/2023:  05:58:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

PS And looking around online, people seem to really like the Codabow Diamond...as Flat the 3rd does...I want to try one of those, for sure. (What will my elderly violin think if I get a newfangled carbon bow, ha! :-)

---

I have been a fan of the CodaBow brand for a long time.  When I bought my first one I tried the Diamond GX, SX, and NX...because those were the main offerings at the time.  I was prepared to buy whichever one suited me and the SX came out on top.  Years later when the Joule and Luma were put on the market I drove over 3 hours to Pittsburgh to sample those, and several others, including some in the Marquis line.  In description, the Diamond line is geared more towards Classical/Orchestral music, while the Joule and Luma aim more towards fiddlers.  I ended up leaving with the Luma that day.  In comparison the SX has a sweeter and slightly more complex sound.  The Luma is more nimble with a quick response.  Since buying the Luma the SX has taken the role of the backup bow.  I was lead to carbon fiber bows for the same reason as most others.  They withstand the trials of humidity and you tend to get more bow for your buck.  If I was to look elsewhere, I have to say that I am intrigued by the Arcus brand of bows as well.  They are highly praised, but also tend to be very pricey.  I just recently noticed that they have a model called Musing that is comparable in price to the Codabow's.  Anyhow, that is my two cents.  I wish you luck in your purchase.  A good quality bow that suits your playing is a game changer!

NCnotes - Posted - 03/12/2023:  11:02:32

Thanks, I am loving the “shop talk”! I think my original plan was just to go there, play a handful of bows and buy one…but now I am becoming a more discerning picky buyer, I think!

Anja, good luck with your bow search too! :-) let us know if you wind up upgrading!

Quincy - Posted - 03/12/2023:  20:07:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

Thanks, I am loving the “shop talk”! I think my original plan was just to go there, play a handful of bows and buy one…but now I am becoming a more discerning picky buyer, I think!

Anja, good luck with your bow search too! :-) let us know if you wind up upgrading!

---

One thing is for sure: when I'm upgrading, only me and you guys will know for I don't dare to tell my mother I am looking at a nearly 800 euro bow. She would think I completely lost my mind.

BUT: I found a luthier in Greece online who can ship a brand new Luma for 680 (!) euro, taxes and shipping cost of 30 euro included, that would save me some money (ahum, you know what I mean) but then I need Visa or something like that. I might ask a friend with Visa to help me out on this one. And ofcourse I would first call the luthier in Greece to know if it  can be trusted to have it shipped to Belgium.

What I read here about the Luma being more of a fiddle bow makes me  even more excited!!

Edited by - Quincy on 03/12/2023 20:20:08

dogmageek - Posted - 03/13/2023:  21:19:40

I don't know about upgrading especially by mail.

The bows I use playing weekly for two hours in public are $24 USD each that I bought years ago. I rehair them myself and keep them more or less playing shape. They get a lot of constant use. I don't really worry a lot about [things at events etc that mess up my bows ....] but do take care of the bows and fiddles.

I do have a bow from chicago William H. Lee that was pretty pricey and I thought was the only bow that ever clicked with me when I first played it. It was the only bow that called to me and I had to buy it after playing it and several other bows in chicago. Now I play the cheapo bows for any extended gig.

Also I have bought some dud bows on ebay and some antique in need of repair.

If you think it's your bow, it could be.

I would encourage getting a selection of "good" but cheap bows and seeing if your playing can move forward.

Also consider demosthenes who put pebbles in mouth to speak.

britannica.com/biography/Demos...nd-orator

I'm not saying to play with an inferior bow; just think about getting a bow that will attend the wear and tear; and then give it some wear and tear.

And then keep your good bow.

old cowboy - Posted - 03/15/2023:  10:14:33

to me, paying mega bucks for a fiddle bow is like paying big bucks for a guitar pick! If it feels good and produces a good sound, what more do you want?

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/15/2023:  12:34:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by old cowboy

to me, paying mega bucks for a fiddle bow is like paying big bucks for a guitar pick! If it feels good and produces a good sound, what more do you want?

---

Maybe about ten years ago, my then nearby guitar shop got a supply of Fender Brand tortoise shell flatpicks that had been sitting at Who Knows Where since they became illegal. I bought maybe three or four picks. They're still my go-to guitar picks. The heat from my fingers have bent them into the perfect shape, and the tone has a lift and snap that my plastic picks simply cannot duplicate.  What can I say?

buckhenry - Posted - 03/15/2023:  17:28:23

 ......paying mega bucks for a fiddle bow is like paying big bucks for a guitar pick! If it feels good and produces a good sound, what more do you want?.....

I paid mega bucks. I trialed all the Coda bows in the shop beginning at the lowest grade.

Each successive grade had that little extra to give. When I got to the Marquise model I had to stay with it.

I didn't know what more there is to want until I tried them..... 

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 03/15/2023:  18:19:44

Guitar pick, or Mando pick, etc, accounts for maybe .05% of the tone.

Bow accounts for at least 50% of the tone. The math?...

doryman - Posted - 03/15/2023:  20:52:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Brazilwood and pernambuco are sourced from the same tree. What differentiates them is that pernambuco is the “heartwood” of the tree, where the annual growth rings are the tightest and the density is at its highest, and brazilwood is the outer layers, which are much less dense. As you move closer to the heartwood, the line between the two can become hard to distinguish, but when you see bows of the two types, it’s generally easy to tell which is which at a glance.



 

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One correction.  Typically, the rings are not the tightest* in the heartwood.  Ring tightness is a function of annual growing conditions and, if anything, heartwood rings are usually less tight. The heartwood IS denser than the sapwood (outer-layers), but that is because of chemical changes that occur as the sapwood dies and becomes heartwood.  

*here I am assuming that by "tightness", you mean how wide or narrow each ring is. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 03/16/2023:  00:57:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by doryman

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Brazilwood and pernambuco are sourced from the same tree. What differentiates them is that pernambuco is the “heartwood” of the tree, where the annual growth rings are the tightest and the density is at its highest, and brazilwood is the outer layers, which are much less dense. As you move closer to the heartwood, the line between the two can become hard to distinguish, but when you see bows of the two types, it’s generally easy to tell which is which at a glance.



 

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One correction.  Typically, the rings are not the tightest* in the heartwood.  Ring tightness is a function of annual growing conditions and, if anything, heartwood rings are usually less tight. The heartwood IS denser than the sapwood (outer-layers), but that is because of chemical changes that occur as the sapwood dies and becomes heartwood.  

*here I am assuming that by "tightness", you mean how wide or narrow each ring is. 

---

My comment was not so much about the spacing of growth rings in relation to another as about their diameter. Yes, the environmental conditions will affect how much growth occurs in a season. This is precisely why the old growth wood is so valuable--for a period of time, there was little growth annually due to colder conditions, making the rings much closer together and adding greater density to the wood. Once that period ended, the growth went back to  more regular rate and the wood became less dense. Look at the grain in a Stradivari top by the center seam and you'll be amazed how narrow its width is; Stradivari was rich enough to be able to source the best wood and he certainly did. The same idea is true of bow making wood.

I was thinking more about the wood from the perspective of processing it from a felled log into blanks. If you take a cross-section of a log and then divide the whole thing as if you're cutting up a pie, the closer to the center point (or the tip of each slice) you get, the greater number of rings (generally) will be in the section if the wood is of moderate age and grown in good conditions. As your slice gets wider, it covers fewer rings. Brazilwood is the wood at the wider end of the slice, and that's where the wood is softer for several reasons.

Your point about the change in the structure of the heartwood itself is good. According to IPCI, it takes at least 20 years for the heartwood of the tree to reach a density that makes it mature and usable for bowmakers. 

TuneWeaver - Posted - 03/16/2023:  05:52:42

A friend was passing through town and called to see if we could play a few fiddle tunes during their brief stay. Sure. When their fiddle case was opened I was amazed. Seems they had at least 6 bows, none of which seemed to have more than a dozen or two hairs, and all had loose hair hanging, top and bottom...It was comical. I teased a little about the lack of bow hair..I had no opinion to offer about that actual bows. Then when the fiddling began it was like magic.. The fiddler sounded really great and if I wasn't looking I'd never have known how poor was the condition of the bow hair situation...So, like a lot of other things.. it is not always the bow, but how it is used.... This event was just two days ago.

Edited by - TuneWeaver on 03/16/2023 05:53:05

fiddlenerd - Posted - 03/16/2023:  09:01:54

The answers to life's most difficult questions.

NCnotes - Posted - 07/09/2023:  21:43:05

Well, just wanted to give an update on this ole thread!

I cancelled my first appointment due to my husband getting Covid and going into 5-day quarantine…and then he had the Paxlovid rebound and tested positive again…(poor guy!) and another 5-day quarantine…so I tested myself and stayed home a lot ( did not get it, phew). But this weekend I did finally make it to a luthier shop appointment and played a tray full of 8 bows plus 6 fiddles in my stated price range ( fiddles under 2k)……Fun!!

I tried the fiddles first of course, and that was a shocker! None of them came close to the one I play now…in comparison, they sounded like…hollow wooden boxes. That was disappointing because then I had the thought that in order to attain my “dream sound” I am going to have to drop a huge wad of cash - or, get lucky and stumble across an underpriced gem. Doesn’t make sense to spend such a sum for something to play in a pub and outdoors…so my fiddle quest is on hold for now ( but I still dream of finding/choosing my very own instrument someday! Mine was chosen by my violin teacher ).

Onward to bows…
went rapidly through the tray and I kept liking the brown bows more than the black ones. Eventually I realized that the black ones were the carbon fiber/composite bows ( he mentioned that there were carbon fiber bows included in the tray) and the brown ones were wooden? At the end I was going back and forth between two wooden bows…both good…one made my E string sing so sweetly, and felt light as air in my hand. So I picked that one! ( Note-I felt that the carbon fiber bows in general had a more clear, crisp, neutral sound…but I like a more warm rustic sound.)

End result for me…

Eastman BL-90
Pernambuco wood bow

There is a huge difference between the harsh sound of my ‘temporary’ $99 student bow, and this new bow. The first thing I noticed was that I can “whisper” and “shout” again! I was puzzled because I was having such a hard time playing loud vs soft (which I used to be able to do) and now I can do it again! And I hated the sound of my E string and would play with my mute on a lot… but now the E is smooth and sweet and I like playing unmuted. All the strings sound more balanced, instead of the E being louder /shriller than the rest.

Anyway - that’s my “shopping” update!

NCnotes - Posted - 07/10/2023:  07:18:54

I wanted to add that after reading this thread, I thought I should choose a carbon fiber bow, and was excited to try them! Especially because I sometimes play outside in the summer humidity, CF would be the logical choice.

The CF sound was crisp, clear, clean…but just didn’t fit me ( i like a soulful warm singing sound) …and, something about the wood bow really mellowed out my E string.

So I guess, in a way, my fiddle/violin picked its bow :-)

I think it’s very individual…it is good to let your fiddle decide what bow ‘makes it happy’!

Erockin - Posted - 07/10/2023:  09:05:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

I wanted to add that after reading this thread, I thought I should choose a carbon fiber bow, and was excited to try them! Especially because I sometimes play outside in the summer humidity, CF would be the logical choice.



The CF sound was crisp, clear, clean…but just didn’t fit me ( i like a soulful warm singing sound) …and, something about the wood bow really mellowed out my E string.



So I guess, in a way, my fiddle/violin picked its bow :-)



I think it’s very individual…it is good to let your fiddle decide what bow ‘makes it happy’!

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That's good news, NC! I was happy with my CF because I don't know any better and I'd think that wood be much warmer of a sound. Congrats!!!!

Fiddler - Posted - 07/10/2023:  09:25:08

I just recently (last week!) bought a nice, midrange JonPaul carbon fiber bow. It looks like a wood bow, but it is CF composite. In comparison to my nice pernambuco bow, there are some notable differences. I tested this out on a my nice fidde with fresh Helicore medium strings. I limited the test to playing only a few select phrases. I also asked some friends to give me their assessment. Here are the things that I noticed about this CF bow during my "test drive":

First, it is louder, but not harsh. The difference is significant! I tried to carefully discern whether it was my bias or real. Yes, it was real. This may be due to the stiffness of the stick and its responsiveness.

Second, the tone quality is different. The primary difference is in the "warmth". With the pernambuco bow, the low end just seems fuller and more present. Again, I carefully tried to discern the differences and avoid bias as much as I could. I could see that the wood bow might be more appropriate for certain settings.

Third, the CF bow was very responsive. I found that I was able to play cleaner and with more nuance than with my wood bow. This seems to be due to the camber of the bow and the stiffness.

Lastly, the JonPaul CF bow just felt different in my hand. It felt lighter and better balanced. I played for an English Country dance last Saturday and was really surprised at how much less effort I exerted.

Bottom line: Bows are personal! Test drive several that are in your price range using your best fiddl. I know that a $5000 bow is wasted on me - right now! I know that I will likely never be playing at that level. However, I do know that the quality of your instrument and bow can hinder your development. It did mine! Go with the best that you can afford.

When I started the process looking for a new bow, I knew that I wanted a CF bow. I had read that their quality was much improved these days and that a midrange CF bow could rival some very good wood bows. I read many reviews and articles. Talked with professional violinists. (I learned that many violinists who play for operas or shows where they are in a "pit" use CF bows. Apparently the hazards and risk of damage to a bow is fairly high in these settings.) So, I had gathered a lot of information about CF bows, the different makers, etc. before making the final decision to go with a CF bow.

FWIW - I tried some CF bows a couple of years ago and they were crappy. I think they were very cheap models and were worse than even my low-end pernambuco bow. I had basically dismissed CF bows totally until about a month ago!

I'm sure that when the time comes to upgrade my bow, I WILL be looking for a good pernambuco stick. There is much that I like about them! The problem is that it would do a number of my bank account!

Fiddler - Posted - 07/10/2023:  09:40:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

I wanted to add that after reading this thread, I thought I should choose a carbon fiber bow, and was excited to try them! Especially because I sometimes play outside in the summer humidity, CF would be the logical choice.



The CF sound was crisp, clear, clean…but just didn’t fit me ( i like a soulful warm singing sound) …and, something about the wood bow really mellowed out my E string.



So I guess, in a way, my fiddle/violin picked its bow :-)



I think it’s very individual…it is good to let your fiddle decide what bow ‘makes it happy’!

---

Congratulations! 

Yes, the bow can make a world of difference! When I bought my first good pernambuco bow back in 1979, my playing improved by a quantum leap! It was amazing to me. When I upgraded again in the mid 80s with an even better pernambuco bow, my playing also improved. This became my main bow until just recently. It was well-matched with my two main fiddles. I bought the bow to match a newly purchased fiddle. Yes, the fiddle chooses the bow.

Here was my process. I went to a luthier and asked to try out bows. My budget was $500. I asked that he set out a range of bows, but also asked to put one that was well below and another that was well above. (He humored me.) I also asked him to hide the price tags so that information wouldn't bias my selection. I play only one phrase of a tune using each bow. Well, the first bow to get discarded was the $10,000 (!!) bow. (Whew!) The second bow was the $50 bow. So, I kept narrowing the selection down and ended up with a nice pernambuco bow for $350. It sounded better that one that was $750! So, yes, the fiddle chose the bow.

Have fun with your new bow and give you fiddle some expression. Make it laugh. Make it cry. Make it shout. Make it whisper.

NCnotes - Posted - 07/10/2023:  09:57:55

Thanks! :-)

Yes, one of the first things I’ve learned is that I need to “back off”… what used to make a note loud, now can make it squawk!

It’s like learning to use a lighter foot on the gas pedal…apparently the old bow was needing much more driving effort, so my “sound” is jerking around a bit like when you drive a responsive car, LOL.

Fiddler - Posted - 07/10/2023:  10:26:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

Thanks! :-)



Yes, one of the first things I’ve learned is that I need to “back off”… what used to make a note loud, now can make it squawk!



It’s like learning to use a lighter foot on the gas pedal…apparently the old bow was needing much more driving effort, so my “sound” is jerking around a bit like when you drive a responsive car, LOL.

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You have discovered one of the secrets of bowing. More pressure = more sound .... but not always!

Yes, with my new bow, I feel like I am stepping up from a Corolla and driving a Lamborghini. Woa!!

Another bad habit is posture. Many of us point our instruments toward the ground, thus making it difficult to keep the bow in the right position because you are fighting gravity. When I focused on posture and sitting up straight and with the aid of a shoulder rest, I can now let gravity and the bow do most of the work. I can better control the nuances of bowing.