ep2175 - Posted - 01/21/2023:  14:36:12

I'm having issues with a "muddy" sound on the G string when I'm in a high bass tuning (ADAE). The bass A sounds fine/normal when I play it open, it gets muddy if any fingers are down. Particularly third finger (D).

Is this a bridge issue? soundpost? just a feature of my fiddle overall? poor intonation/technique?

Strings are brand new (helicore steel core) so I know that's not the issue.

G string sounds good across all fingers/positions when tuned to standard.

Any help would be much appreciated!

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/21/2023:  16:39:52

Just guessing here. It's an interesting problem. Since the string has good tone tuned down it would seem to be a string tension problem. I would wonder if your bridge is to thin because with the string tuned up you are producing notes with higher tension. Or the groove in the bridge might be tapered in such a way as to cause a little pinching when the string is tightened. Opening up the notch might be all you need. Another thing to consider might be your sound post position. But if your fiddle sounds really great in standard tuning you might not want to change settings at all because you might alter the sound there when you tweak things. In that case you might decide to have another fiddle for retuning. Finally, though rare a new string can be defective, in your case only noticeable when asking something extra of it. Have you tried another string?

ep2175 - Posted - 01/21/2023:  17:16:07

Thanks so much, this is helpful! I just replaced the strings earlier today to see if that was the problem--the last set had been on there quite awhile--so I think I can rule out a bad string. I'm going to try what you suggested about the bridge groove, as that seems like a low-impact thing I can change easily, and then maybe swap out the bridge for a slightly thicker one if that doesn't work. You're probably right about the soundpost; I'm happy with the sound in all other tunings so I don't want to mess up a good thing! Thanks again

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 01/21/2023:  17:31:59

Mr. Wood is quite helpful. I was interested to read his response. Fiddles are such "fiddly" critters. A specific question brought out several possible causes. Some of which I thought of some I did not. Thanks for the education sir. R/

DougD - Posted - 01/21/2023:  17:53:49

Also relating to increased string tension when its tuned up. Since it sounds OK open, maybe you're not using enough finger pressure to match the increased tension. Trying pressing harder.

Hobbiest - Posted - 01/21/2023:  19:01:42

What is the benefit of an open A on the G? Maybe Helicores aren't good for higher tuning.

Edited by - Hobbiest on 01/21/2023 19:05:12

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 01/21/2023:  19:34:33

Tuning the G string up to A is common in Old Time music. It's referred to as High Bass tuning. David Bragger taught his OT students a number of ADAE tunes and, when prompted, me and my mates would tune the G string up to A and have a grand old time playin' a bunch of 'em. I can't think of any of them right now but...

DougD - Posted - 01/21/2023:  19:45:49

TPJ54 - The benefit is that it provides another drone string that's part of the tonic triad, and also the dominant chord. Helicores may not be the best string for retunings, but plenty of people do. I do wonder what gauge ep2175 is using. Heavier strings in general are louder, but the tone is often a little duller. Maybe the OP is pushing the boundary a little too much. Also could be the instrument itself - maybe the extra tension damps the body resonances somehow and diminishes the sound.

ep2175 - Posted - 01/21/2023:  20:03:34

DougD— they are medium gauge, which is what I have been using consistently. Is a lighter gauge something people use for retuning?

Interestingly I don’t have any tone issues with other strings tuned up. That is, the D string sounds fine in cross A, for example. Seems to be just a G string issue

DougD - Posted - 01/21/2023:  20:14:34

I think most people use medium or heavy, depending on what they're looking for. Helicores are thinner and "slinkier" than other strings, so lights are really light. I very rarely retune and only tried Helicores (medium) once, but my late luthier thought that Helicore mediums had a kind of unique feel and sound, but that going to the heavies kind of defeated the purpose.