finn mcc - Posted - 01/16/2023:  16:09:58

fixing grand daughter's fiddle, she dropped it and the neck came loose -- broke the button off the back. mortise was cut too big originally and the button on the back was what held it.
I'm planning to dovetail in a contrasting splice to replace the button and to replace the neck mortise block -- got it out and will copy it and cut a tighter joint than they had. They had a wide grained piece of spruce that seems to me to have been weak from the get go. Should I go with close grained spruce or a piece of Hardwood?

It actually had sounded pretty good before the bust so it may be worth fixing and if not, I'm having fun. Previous experience limited to building mandos.

Thanks

Al

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/16/2023:  20:14:44

Spruce is most common, I would use that. Why do you think hardwood would be an advantage?

kjb - Posted - 01/17/2023:  04:33:02

I use willow

finn mcc - Posted - 01/17/2023:  09:56:06

Thanks, I've got good close grained spruce so I'll use it.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/17/2023:  11:12:07

Why replace the button? That’s a crucial part of the instrument, and getting rid of the original is never recommended if it’s at all possible to retain the original.

Also, I wouldn’t jump right to replacing the neck block if this repair is new to you. Once the button has been reattached and reinforced, you could just do a neck reset. That being said, a neck reset is a significant repair as well, but at least you have a pre-established mortise for reference.

A hardwood block would add too much weight to the instrument. Spruce or willow are the traditional choices with a good strength-to-weight ratio and tonal results.

finn mcc - Posted - 01/17/2023:  15:57:51

Had thought about trying to reuse it but, The original mortise was some spruce that grew real fast, cut way too big and a sloppy "fit", used it for a very rough form, trying not to repeat the issues. the looseness resulted in the button being the thing that held , it broke off with parts missing. Letting things set up for a couple days . THen will fit it or repeat process. Trials and errors.

Thanks again,

Al

fiddler135 - Posted - 01/17/2023:  17:26:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Why replace the button? That’s a crucial part of the instrument, and getting rid of the original is never recommended if it’s at all possible to retain the original.



Also, I wouldn’t jump right to replacing the neck block if this repair is new to you. Once the button has been reattached and reinforced, you could just do a neck reset. That being said, a neck reset is a significant repair as well, but at least you have a pre-established mortise for reference.



A hardwood block would add too much weight to the instrument. Spruce or willow are the traditional choices with a good strength-to-weight ratio and tonal results.

---

I know you want less weight in general but that concern is mainly for the plates, that do the sound production. The neck block and fit is crucial. I have used hardwood (mahogany) for the neck block without adding much weight (I didn't have a scale at the time, so it is a subjective judgement) but no bigger than the block is I think a little extra weight is worth the gain in strength. Anyway I am considering using hardwood again because I feel it was an improvement to the instrument. 

fiddler135 - Posted - 01/18/2023:  06:24:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by finn mcc

fixing grand daughter's fiddle, she dropped it and the neck came loose -- broke the button off the back. mortise was cut too big originally and the button on the back was what held it.

I'm planning to dovetail in a contrasting splice to replace the button and to replace the neck mortise block -- got it out and will copy it and cut a tighter joint than they had. They had a wide grained piece of spruce that seems to me to have been weak from the get go. Should I go with close grained spruce or a piece of Hardwood?



It actually had sounded pretty good before the bust so it may be worth fixing and if not, I'm having fun. Previous experience limited to building mandos.



Thanks



Al

---

I've done a "false button" before and you are in for quite a job, but it is rewarding. (In my case I cut off the button with a bandsaw when I cut out the back.) I found "how to's" in books but there is bound to be videos now. 

as I said in a previous reply, I think your idea of a hardwood neck block is a good one. I think it improved the violin I put one into.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/18/2023:  06:39:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Why replace the button? That’s a crucial part of the instrument, and getting rid of the original is never recommended if it’s at all possible to retain the original.



Also, I wouldn’t jump right to replacing the neck block if this repair is new to you. Once the button has been reattached and reinforced, you could just do a neck reset. That being said, a neck reset is a significant repair as well, but at least you have a pre-established mortise for reference.



A hardwood block would add too much weight to the instrument. Spruce or willow are the traditional choices with a good strength-to-weight ratio and tonal results.

---

I know you want less weight in general but that concern is mainly for the plates, that do the sound production. The neck block and fit is crucial. I have used hardwood (mahogany) for the neck block without adding much weight (I didn't have a scale at the time, so it is a subjective judgement) but no bigger than the block is I think a little extra weight is worth the gain in strength. Anyway I am considering using hardwood again because I feel it was an improvement to the instrument. 

---

Every part of the violin has an impact on sound, not merely the plates. There is good reason for makers using spruce and willow for the last 500 years. There is no improvement to be made by putting a hard wood block in. Don't underestimate the strength of spruce!

I agree that fit is extremely important for the longevity of the instrument, however, it's worth noting that the mortised neck is not something that's always been the norm. The Cremonese makers originally glued the neck right onto the ribs and then put nails through the block. There are a lot of German violins out there with no neck block at all, just a neck root that extends into the back. Adding the mortise was advantageous because it was a solid method of attachment, but also because it would allow for better adjustment of projection and disassembly for repairs. 

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 01/18/2023 06:53:30

fiddler135 - Posted - 01/18/2023:  07:48:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Why replace the button? That’s a crucial part of the instrument, and getting rid of the original is never recommended if it’s at all possible to retain the original.



Also, I wouldn’t jump right to replacing the neck block if this repair is new to you. Once the button has been reattached and reinforced, you could just do a neck reset. That being said, a neck reset is a significant repair as well, but at least you have a pre-established mortise for reference.



A hardwood block would add too much weight to the instrument. Spruce or willow are the traditional choices with a good strength-to-weight ratio and tonal results.

---

I know you want less weight in general but that concern is mainly for the plates, that do the sound production. The neck block and fit is crucial. I have used hardwood (mahogany) for the neck block without adding much weight (I didn't have a scale at the time, so it is a subjective judgement) but no bigger than the block is I think a little extra weight is worth the gain in strength. Anyway I am considering using hardwood again because I feel it was an improvement to the instrument. 

---

Every part of the violin has an impact on sound, not merely the plates. There is good reason for makers using spruce and willow for the last 500 years. There is no improvement to be made by putting a hard wood block in. Don't underestimate the strength of spruce!

I agree that fit is extremely important for the longevity of the instrument, however, it's worth noting that the mortised neck is not something that's always been the norm. The Cremonese makers originally glued the neck right onto the ribs and then put nails through the block. There are a lot of German violins out there with no neck block at all, just a neck root that extends into the back. Adding the mortise was advantageous because it was a solid method of attachment, but also because it would allow for better adjustment of projection and disassembly for repairs. 

---

I think you're wrong. You need the most solid neck assembly you can get. A flimsy neck dampens the string. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/18/2023:  10:17:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Why replace the button? That’s a crucial part of the instrument, and getting rid of the original is never recommended if it’s at all possible to retain the original.



Also, I wouldn’t jump right to replacing the neck block if this repair is new to you. Once the button has been reattached and reinforced, you could just do a neck reset. That being said, a neck reset is a significant repair as well, but at least you have a pre-established mortise for reference.



A hardwood block would add too much weight to the instrument. Spruce or willow are the traditional choices with a good strength-to-weight ratio and tonal results.

---

I know you want less weight in general but that concern is mainly for the plates, that do the sound production. The neck block and fit is crucial. I have used hardwood (mahogany) for the neck block without adding much weight (I didn't have a scale at the time, so it is a subjective judgement) but no bigger than the block is I think a little extra weight is worth the gain in strength. Anyway I am considering using hardwood again because I feel it was an improvement to the instrument. 

---

Every part of the violin has an impact on sound, not merely the plates. There is good reason for makers using spruce and willow for the last 500 years. There is no improvement to be made by putting a hard wood block in. Don't underestimate the strength of spruce!

I agree that fit is extremely important for the longevity of the instrument, however, it's worth noting that the mortised neck is not something that's always been the norm. The Cremonese makers originally glued the neck right onto the ribs and then put nails through the block. There are a lot of German violins out there with no neck block at all, just a neck root that extends into the back. Adding the mortise was advantageous because it was a solid method of attachment, but also because it would allow for better adjustment of projection and disassembly for repairs. 

---

I think you're wrong. You need the most solid neck assembly you can get. A flimsy neck dampens the string. 

---

Why do you think spruce is flimsy? If that were the case, makers would certainly have abandoned it in favor of something else centuries ago. I would not advocate for anything I thought was structurally  weak, and although the summer grain  tends to be soft, the winter grain can be harder than maple in some pieces of spruce.

Willow is often softer than spruce and doesn't have the same corrugated effect that you find in spruce. However, it does work very well for blocks, as evidenced by the surviving healthy blocks in fine violins dating back to the early days of violin making.

Your argument against spruce and willow really isn't with me so much as it is with the traditional wisdom of making violins. Surely all those makers must know something about their craft.

 There have been all kinds of experiments with different materials over time. Those that have proven useful have remained, while the failures can be found in collections as curiosities with little value.

fiddler135 - Posted - 01/18/2023:  10:55:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Why replace the button? That’s a crucial part of the instrument, and getting rid of the original is never recommended if it’s at all possible to retain the original.



Also, I wouldn’t jump right to replacing the neck block if this repair is new to you. Once the button has been reattached and reinforced, you could just do a neck reset. That being said, a neck reset is a significant repair as well, but at least you have a pre-established mortise for reference.



A hardwood block would add too much weight to the instrument. Spruce or willow are the traditional choices with a good strength-to-weight ratio and tonal results.

---

I know you want less weight in general but that concern is mainly for the plates, that do the sound production. The neck block and fit is crucial. I have used hardwood (mahogany) for the neck block without adding much weight (I didn't have a scale at the time, so it is a subjective judgement) but no bigger than the block is I think a little extra weight is worth the gain in strength. Anyway I am considering using hardwood again because I feel it was an improvement to the instrument. 

---

Every part of the violin has an impact on sound, not merely the plates. There is good reason for makers using spruce and willow for the last 500 years. There is no improvement to be made by putting a hard wood block in. Don't underestimate the strength of spruce!

I agree that fit is extremely important for the longevity of the instrument, however, it's worth noting that the mortised neck is not something that's always been the norm. The Cremonese makers originally glued the neck right onto the ribs and then put nails through the block. There are a lot of German violins out there with no neck block at all, just a neck root that extends into the back. Adding the mortise was advantageous because it was a solid method of attachment, but also because it would allow for better adjustment of projection and disassembly for repairs. 

---

I think you're wrong. You need the most solid neck assembly you can get. A flimsy neck dampens the string. 

---

Why do you think spruce is flimsy? If that were the case, makers would certainly have abandoned it in favor of something else centuries ago. I would not advocate for anything I thought was structurally  weak, and although the summer grain  tends to be soft, the winter grain can be harder than maple in some pieces of spruce.

Willow is often softer than spruce and doesn't have the same corrugated effect that you find in spruce. However, it does work very well for blocks, as evidenced by the surviving healthy blocks in fine violins dating back to the early days of violin making.

Your argument against spruce and willow really isn't with me so much as it is with the traditional wisdom of making violins. Surely all those makers must know something about their craft.

 There have been all kinds of experiments with different materials over time. Those that have proven useful have remained, while the failures can be found in collections as curiosities with little value.

---

I don't think spruce is flimsy, but it is soft, especially compared to walnut, mahogany, or maple. The neck surely indents a spruce block some with spring tension, but it must not matter too much. Or does it? Nevertheless a maple neck into a spruce block cannot be as solid as the assembly you would have with a hardwood block. Martin guitars, anyway, have a mahogany neck block, not spruce; for what it's worth. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/18/2023:  11:30:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddler135

I don't think spruce is flimsy, but it is soft, especially compared to walnut, mahogany, or maple. The neck surely indents a spruce block some with spring tension, but it must not matter too much. Or does it? Nevertheless a maple neck into a spruce block cannot be as solid as the assembly you would have with a hardwood block. Martin guitars, anyway, have a mahogany neck block, not spruce; for what it's worth. 

---

I don't understand what you mean about the block becoming indented. Could you explain more? It seems to me that a solid bond between neck root and mortise will not undergo any flexing. Are you thinking of projection issues in relation to the blocks?

Have you ever come across a violin with a loose neck that still sounds great? I have on more occasions than I can count. Obviously, for structural reasons, I would work glue into the joint to stabilize it, but it wouldn't necessarily change the sound in and of itself.

Guitar making is a different animal, one about which I know very little. I have heard, though, that spruce can be used successfully for guitar neck blocks. 

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 01/18/2023 11:31:45

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/18/2023:  14:39:14

...The neck surely indents a spruce block some with spring tension, but it must not matter too much. Or does it? Nevertheless a maple neck into a spruce block cannot be as solid as the assembly you would have with a hardwood block...

When the neck is glued to the block the glue joint makes them as one, there is no spring tension. There is no need to use a denser wood than spruce or willow, so why even go there?  Doing so would be adding mass without a reason.

fiddler135 - Posted - 01/18/2023:  14:52:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddler135

I don't think spruce is flimsy, but it is soft, especially compared to walnut, mahogany, or maple. The neck surely indents a spruce block some with spring tension, but it must not matter too much. Or does it? Nevertheless a maple neck into a spruce block cannot be as solid as the assembly you would have with a hardwood block. Martin guitars, anyway, have a mahogany neck block, not spruce; for what it's worth. 

---

I don't understand what you mean about the block becoming indented. Could you explain more? It seems to me that a solid bond between neck root and mortise will not undergo any flexing. Are you thinking of projection issues in relation to the blocks?

Have you ever come across a violin with a loose neck that still sounds great? I have on more occasions than I can count. Obviously, for structural reasons, I would work glue into the joint to stabilize it, but it wouldn't necessarily change the sound in and of itself.

Guitar making is a different animal, one about which I know very little. I have heard, though, that spruce can be used successfully for guitar neck blocks. 

---

No I haven't come across a violin with a loose neck that sounded good, if fact my experience is that when that joint is loose, the instrument loses its sound, true of them all, even a banjo. You still have a sound of course, but it  changes for the worse, and won't stay in tune, etc. 

I think you are correct that a solid connection there won't undergo flexing, which is the point, I think. The indentation I spoke of would be the small amount of the block at the top, behind the neck tenon, that is in compression. (The bottom of the neck block of course is in tension, reinforced and aided by the button.) It is my opinion that the neck block is one of the most important parts of the fiddle, because of its function, holding the neck (and end of the strings) steady while not dampening their vibration, and positioned near or at the midpoint of the stop length. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/19/2023:  17:47:13

I don’t see any evidence of blocks compressing under string tension.  The endgrain is glued at both ends to the plates and the block is oriented to be vertically strong. In fact, it's not uncommon for blocks that have not been properly sized to expand and become proud of the rib structure, something that causes issues for the top. To get to the point where a block would bend it would have to be quite small and would then not be a proper block. Some makers make their blocks smaller than average without any detriment.



I was asking about projection because I wondered if the idea of indentation was based on seeing necks drop. There’s a myth that necks drop because the blocks warp or migrate. There are other causes for the change, and one of the most common examples is actually the arch changing shape under the fingerboard. If a top is too thin in that area it can really puff up, which essentially shortens the top’s length and causes the neck to drop as it’s pulled along with the top.

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 01/19/2023 17:50:24

Mark Ralston - Posted - 01/20/2023:  03:06:17

Per Rich's observation about "experiments":

 

In “The Story of the Violin" (1905), Paul Stoeving identified three classes of German violins, the third being violins from the "German workshops":

"First: the legitimate artistic imitation by good sound -makers who were satisfied to copy their Stainer and the Cremonese masters with as much fidelity as possible.

Second: The dabbling of cranks who could not resist the temptation of wanting to improve on the Stainer and Italian patterns, and by inoculating their own individuality produced not only deformities, acoustic impossibilities, but helped also to impair the slow-growing reputation at home and abroad of the legitimate maker.

Third: The wholesale imitation and production of instruments as it is carried on to-day in several fiddle-making centres of Germany with great benefit to the producers as well as the world at large. “

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/20/2023:  23:10:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Ralston

Per Rich's observation about "experiments":

 

In “The Story of the Violin" (1905), Paul Stoeving identified three classes of German violins, the third being violins from the "German workshops":

"First: the legitimate artistic imitation by good sound -makers who were satisfied to copy their Stainer and the Cremonese masters with as much fidelity as possible.

Second: The dabbling of cranks who could not resist the temptation of wanting to improve on the Stainer and Italian patterns, and by inoculating their own individuality produced not only deformities, acoustic impossibilities, but helped also to impair the slow-growing reputation at home and abroad of the legitimate maker.

Third: The wholesale imitation and production of instruments as it is carried on to-day in several fiddle-making centres of Germany with great benefit to the producers as well as the world at large. “

---

That book has always been my father's favorite on the violin and was a large part of his inspiration to become a professional writer on violin playing. 

Mark Ralston - Posted - 01/21/2023:  02:44:32

Stoeving's book was a very useful source for some historical research that I did on "Fancy Trade Catalog Violins".

facebook.com/media/set/?set=a....60&type=3

 

FiddleDoug - Posted - 01/24/2023:  08:39:06

The button MUST be replaced and reinforced. Spruce is fine for material to fill in the neck mortise. Neck resetting is far from a simple operation! You have to get three angles (rotational, horizontal, and vertical), and two distances (neck length and overstand) correct, all at the same time. It's pretty easy to mess up, and if you get the neck glued in with one of those (especially the angles) wrong, you're kind of screwed. (taking out a well glued neck is not easy)