fiddler135 - Posted - 01/03/2023:  11:29:37

Is it necessary to size the parts with rub joint? My question is specific to a violin plate center seam. I have had joints fail that were not sized first, but I discovered that the glue I used was too watery. And when I sized first the glue was thicker, and the joint was strong. So my experience so far doesn't include an unsized joint with glue of the right thickness. 

Edited by - fiddler135 on 01/03/2023 15:17:42

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/03/2023:  15:12:16

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Originally posted by fiddler135

Is it necessary to size the parts with rub joint? My question is specific to a violin plate center seam.

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Not necessary in my opinion. Won't hurt.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/04/2023:  06:37:45

You don’t have to size every glue surface. It can be advantageous to do so on surfaces that have exposed pores (like endgrain). If too much glue is sucked into the wood itself, the joint can become starved or the wood can swell. This is why I would strongly recommend sizing for blocks. On some of the cheap old German factory fiddles, when you remove the top, you’ll find that the glue at the corner blocks has been completely absorbed and no trace of it is on the top, but there’s plenty of glue all around the block. Using willow the same holds.

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 01/04/2023 06:38:35

fiddler135 - Posted - 01/05/2023:  06:48:03

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

You don’t have to size every glue surface. It can be advantageous to do so on surfaces that have exposed pores (like endgrain). If too much glue is sucked into the wood itself, the joint can become starved or the wood can swell. This is why I would strongly recommend sizing for blocks. On some of the cheap old German factory fiddles, when you remove the top, you’ll find that the glue at the corner blocks has been completely absorbed and no trace of it is on the top, but there’s plenty of glue all around the block. Using willow the same holds.

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I understand your point about sizing end grain. I also size a surface that has to be planed against the grain, particularly spruce. 

My question on sizing center seam surfaces arises from my own experiences (explained above) and from 2 experienced groups with contrary opinions. Those 2 groups include YouTube videos and a violin maker plus a hide glue guru. The YouTube video says that sizing is an important step. The violin maker and the hide glue guru both say that sizing is not necessary for a rub joint, you just make the glue a little bit thick. 

I have done a fair amount of experimenting with rub joints  but so far they have not included sizing vs not sizing. EXCEPT that I have had to redo most every rub joint so far, which means the successful joints were all sized (from the initial try). However, I also found that my glue was too thin. It amazes me how strong hide glue is, and how much difference a little bit of water makes. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/05/2023:  07:31:43

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Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

You don’t have to size every glue surface. It can be advantageous to do so on surfaces that have exposed pores (like endgrain). If too much glue is sucked into the wood itself, the joint can become starved or the wood can swell. This is why I would strongly recommend sizing for blocks. On some of the cheap old German factory fiddles, when you remove the top, you’ll find that the glue at the corner blocks has been completely absorbed and no trace of it is on the top, but there’s plenty of glue all around the block. Using willow the same holds.

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I understand your point about sizing end grain. I also size a surface that has to be planed against the grain, particularly spruce. 

My question on sizing center seam surfaces arises from my own experiences (explained above) and from 2 experienced groups with contrary opinions. Those 2 groups include YouTube videos and a violin maker plus a hide glue guru. The YouTube video says that sizing is an important step. The violin maker and the hide glue guru both say that sizing is not necessary for a rub joint, you just make the glue a little bit thick. 

I have done a fair amount of experimenting with rub joints  but so far they have not included sizing vs not sizing. EXCEPT that I have had to redo most every rub joint so far, which means the successful joints were all sized (from the initial try). However, I also found that my glue was too thin. It amazes me how strong hide glue is, and how much difference a little bit of water makes. 

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David Burgess has written a lot about joining plates. He recommends testing a batch of glue on a test piece before gluing plates so you can be sure of the strength.

The thickness of the glue is important. I would use thicker glue for a center seam than for putting on a top or fingerboard. I caution against making it too thick, but you can get a sense of this as you rub the pieces together. The glue should start grabbing right away as you rub. 

fiddler135 - Posted - 01/05/2023:  09:41:04

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

You don’t have to size every glue surface. It can be advantageous to do so on surfaces that have exposed pores (like endgrain). If too much glue is sucked into the wood itself, the joint can become starved or the wood can swell. This is why I would strongly recommend sizing for blocks. On some of the cheap old German factory fiddles, when you remove the top, you’ll find that the glue at the corner blocks has been completely absorbed and no trace of it is on the top, but there’s plenty of glue all around the block. Using willow the same holds.

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I understand your point about sizing end grain. I also size a surface that has to be planed against the grain, particularly spruce. 

My question on sizing center seam surfaces arises from my own experiences (explained above) and from 2 experienced groups with contrary opinions. Those 2 groups include YouTube videos and a violin maker plus a hide glue guru. The YouTube video says that sizing is an important step. The violin maker and the hide glue guru both say that sizing is not necessary for a rub joint, you just make the glue a little bit thick. 

I have done a fair amount of experimenting with rub joints  but so far they have not included sizing vs not sizing. EXCEPT that I have had to redo most every rub joint so far, which means the successful joints were all sized (from the initial try). However, I also found that my glue was too thin. It amazes me how strong hide glue is, and how much difference a little bit of water makes. 

---

David Burgess has written a lot about joining plates. He recommends testing a batch of glue on a test piece before gluing plates so you can be sure of the strength.

The thickness of the glue is important. I would use thicker glue for a center seam than for putting on a top or fingerboard. I caution against making it too thick, but you can get a sense of this as you rub the pieces together. The glue should start grabbing right away as you rub. 

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What do you mean by grabbing "right away "? Do you mean just as soon as you put the top piece on and start to move it, before you have the glue spread out and touching "wood to wood"? 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/06/2023:  06:55:17

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Originally posted by fiddler135

What do you mean by grabbing "right away "? Do you mean just as soon as you put the top piece on and start to move it, before you have the glue spread out and touching "wood to wood"? 

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I mean that right after you start the rubbing process, the pieces start to bind. Even before the glue is applied, they should feel like they almost stick together without it.

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/06/2023:  08:52:16

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful...Even before the glue is applied, they should feel like they almost stick together without it.

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That would only be the case if the joint isn't sprung.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/06/2023:  10:16:15

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful...Even before the glue is applied, they should feel like they almost stick together without it.

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That would only be the case if the joint isn't sprung.

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Not at all. I put relief in whenever I glue a fingerboard on and it always does this. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/06/2023:  10:55:15

Compare it to honing an edge tool with a flat grind vs. a hollow grind. When you grind a hollow in, the honing edge becomes much easier to keep flat because it registers on the stone more easily. A flat edge is much harder to keep flat without a holding device. I grind and hone all my tools freehand.

In the same way that the edge registers nicely on the stone, a fingerboard grabs the neck when there's a hollow. 

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 01/06/2023 10:57:41

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/06/2023:  11:40:18

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful...Even before the glue is applied, they should feel like they almost stick together without it.

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That would only be the case if the joint isn't sprung.

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Not at all. I put relief in whenever I glue a fingerboard on and it always does this. 

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That's different. A finger board easily flexes in the direction you're gluing. I don't know why you put relief in that joint but if done well there's nothing wrong with it except a small visible tapering in the board. The joint in question has relief in the stiffer direction and would require some slight pressure to close and feel it sticking.

Though I enjoy exchanging opinions on the forum I'm somewhat reluctant to engage with you because you often won't concede anyone's points, even simple and relatively unimportant ones. I'm not trying to start anything, just sharing my observations on the topic. I always read what you write with interest.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/06/2023:  17:29:07

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

That's different. A finger board easily flexes in the direction you're gluing. I don't know why you put relief in that joint but if done well there's nothing wrong with it except a small visible tapering in the board. The joint in question has relief in the stiffer direction and would require some slight pressure to close and feel it sticking.

Though I enjoy exchanging opinions on the forum I'm somewhat reluctant to engage with you because you often won't concede anyone's points, even simple and relatively unimportant ones. I'm not trying to start anything, just sharing my observations on the topic. I always read what you write with interest.

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There definitely isn't a visible taper in the fingerboard's sides when I put one on. For that to happen there would have to be a hollow several times bigger than what I would ever plane into the gluing surface. Doing this is a common practice in many good shops, not some crazy idea I came up with. If the fingerboard is bending under clamps, something is wrong. There shouldn't be enough room for that kind of deformation, and a standard fingerboard should not be weaker than the neck. This is why a new fingerboard is often installed to correct a warped neck. Ebony is harder than maple, so it can be thinner but stronger. 

 

I don't see any reason to concede and accept incorrect information just to appease sour grapes. I make my living by working on violins, and my reputation as a workman is directly dependent on my knowledge of the answers to these kinds of questions. 

fiddler135 - Posted - 01/06/2023:  20:16:24

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

You don’t have to size every glue surface. It can be advantageous to do so on surfaces that have exposed pores (like endgrain). If too much glue is sucked into the wood itself, the joint can become starved or the wood can swell. This is why I would strongly recommend sizing for blocks. On some of the cheap old German factory fiddles, when you remove the top, you’ll find that the glue at the corner blocks has been completely absorbed and no trace of it is on the top, but there’s plenty of glue all around the block. Using willow the same holds.

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I understand your point about sizing end grain. I also size a surface that has to be planed against the grain, particularly spruce. 

My question on sizing center seam surfaces arises from my own experiences (explained above) and from 2 experienced groups with contrary opinions. Those 2 groups include YouTube videos and a violin maker plus a hide glue guru. The YouTube video says that sizing is an important step. The violin maker and the hide glue guru both say that sizing is not necessary for a rub joint, you just make the glue a little bit thick. 

I have done a fair amount of experimenting with rub joints  but so far they have not included sizing vs not sizing. EXCEPT that I have had to redo most every rub joint so far, which means the successful joints were all sized (from the initial try). However, I also found that my glue was too thin. It amazes me how strong hide glue is, and how much difference a little bit of water makes. 

---

David Burgess has written a lot about joining plates. He recommends testing a batch of glue on a test piece before gluing plates so you can be sure of the strength.

The thickness of the glue is important. I would use thicker glue for a center seam than for putting on a top or fingerboard. I caution against making it too thick, but you can get a sense of this as you rub the pieces together. The glue should start grabbing right away as you rub. 

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Where can I find these writings by David Burgess?

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/07/2023:  05:50:05

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddler135

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

You don’t have to size every glue surface. It can be advantageous to do so on surfaces that have exposed pores (like endgrain). If too much glue is sucked into the wood itself, the joint can become starved or the wood can swell. This is why I would strongly recommend sizing for blocks. On some of the cheap old German factory fiddles, when you remove the top, you’ll find that the glue at the corner blocks has been completely absorbed and no trace of it is on the top, but there’s plenty of glue all around the block. Using willow the same holds.

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I understand your point about sizing end grain. I also size a surface that has to be planed against the grain, particularly spruce. 

My question on sizing center seam surfaces arises from my own experiences (explained above) and from 2 experienced groups with contrary opinions. Those 2 groups include YouTube videos and a violin maker plus a hide glue guru. The YouTube video says that sizing is an important step. The violin maker and the hide glue guru both say that sizing is not necessary for a rub joint, you just make the glue a little bit thick. 

I have done a fair amount of experimenting with rub joints  but so far they have not included sizing vs not sizing. EXCEPT that I have had to redo most every rub joint so far, which means the successful joints were all sized (from the initial try). However, I also found that my glue was too thin. It amazes me how strong hide glue is, and how much difference a little bit of water makes. 

---

David Burgess has written a lot about joining plates. He recommends testing a batch of glue on a test piece before gluing plates so you can be sure of the strength.

The thickness of the glue is important. I would use thicker glue for a center seam than for putting on a top or fingerboard. I caution against making it too thick, but you can get a sense of this as you rub the pieces together. The glue should start grabbing right away as you rub. 

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Where can I find these writings by David Burgess?

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There's a lot on Maestronet. If you do a Google search for center seam didscussions on the site, you'll probably find some of his comments. 

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/07/2023:  07:16:51

 

I don't see any reason to concede and accept incorrect information just to appease sour grapes. I make my living by working on violins, and my reputation as a workman is directly dependent on my knowledge of the answers to these kinds of questions. 

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But the discussion wasn't about fingerboards and I don't care about that. Your tactic of claiming superiority, being insulting then switching to some other point  isn't helpful. I prefer a conversation with people here, not a contest of egos. I'm not spreading incorrect information. I don't, in my experience (and I've joined many plates), think you will get a feeling  you're describing:

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful...Even before the glue is applied, they should feel like they almost stick together without it.

That's because you need full contact to get that sense. In actuality I don't get that sense anyway on a dry joint, but I do know what you mean about the joint grabbing with the glue, especially with a dead straight joint which I prefer. Okay, I've made my point more than once and am done with it.