Brian Wood - Posted - 01/02/2023:  12:43:38

I've mentioned before that I'm an amateur fiddle builder. Yesterday a friend, who is a professional fiddler, visited and she enjoyed trying different fiddles of mine. She agreed that my favorite, the one I play most regularly myself, had a playability which she described partly as "intonating well". It's a quality I have noticed in different fiddles but I've never come up with an explanation. It's a quality I most notice by its absence on some fiddles. My theory about what influences this isn't very well formed. In general my experience finds that overall warmer sounding fiddles intonate better, though that might have nothing to do with it. I really don't understand why otherwise very similar fiddles would vary in this way, other than one having purer frequencies and harmonics than the other due to characteristics in the wood and arching, etc.

Any thoughts?

Old Scratch - Posted - 01/02/2023:  15:06:19

Nothing helpful, I'm afraid; I'd only point out that in my private dictionary, "intonating well" is the entry next to "wishing well".

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/02/2023:  15:42:31

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Scratch

Nothing helpful, I'm afraid; I'd only point out that in my private dictionary, "intonating well" is the entry next to "wishing well".

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Yes, I know the feeling. But some fiddles are easier to do it on, I have always thought. I'd never verbalized it until somebody else said it.

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 01/02/2023:  17:47:24

Over the years, I've discovered that good intonation has a lot to do with finger pressure, ie, if you mash your noting finger down more than is required to stop the note, the tone is off. One practices scales for handframe memory, so your finger centers, or the bones, I guess, know the notes. Then in the heat of battle, too much pressure or "slamming" in the fingertip resulting in a sharp tone cause the fingertip is mashed too flat.

So, I would think an 'Intonating Well' violin would be one with a good action that doesn't require a lot of pressure to stop the note, thus little finger altitude above the string. To me, this is a desirable characteristic. I don't know if that makes any sense, though.

Another words, good job.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/02/2023:  22:16:49

If the player hits the note intended right on pitch the fundamental, octaves and overtones of the open strings will vibrate in response on a resonant violin.

Earworm - Posted - 01/03/2023:  05:50:08

I've just always assumed that good intonation has entirely to do with the fiddler, not the equipment. Interesting that individual fiddles could be different on this very basic level. I'm not saying this isn't valid, but still it seems like if a fiddler is struggling with intonation, and the verdict is to blame the fiddle too quickly, it might cause you to go shopping when what you really need to do is listen better. What is it they say: "Love the one you're with"?

*edited for word salad

Edited by - Earworm on 01/03/2023 05:54:51

Hector - Posted - 01/03/2023:  07:16:21

Assuming we're leaving the player out of the equation, my experience is that when we hear a really nice sound from a musical instrument then our ears tend to be more "forgiving" as regards intonation or unusual pitch compared to our response to a harsh or unpleasant sounding instrument doing the same thing.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/03/2023:  11:07:58

Cellos are the easiest instruments to see this phenomena because of the lower tension of the strings. For example, once I went to the home of a gentleman who had 40 used cellos for sale, I cherry picked one certain cello out of the bunch. He asked my why that one, not the most beautiful, not the best brand name, most expensive, etc. I told him it responded with an open woody tone with lots of rich harmonics which can be seen with the vibrations of the open strings.

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/03/2023:  15:16:33

I also wonder how much this effect is only perceived under the ear and maybe not at all to a listener. Under the ear matters a lot though, because that's what you're hearing and working with.

kjb - Posted - 01/04/2023:  05:10:23

not sure if you mean resonance?

farmerjones - Posted - 01/04/2023:  06:01:01

I don't know if I should even touch this. But the reference may be to the effect some violins take a bit to "wake up." I had one that you'd have to play for over an hour before it sounded worth beans. I rebuilt an old 3/4 violin. It took a bit to remind it that it was a violin, and should (vibrate) and act like one. OTOH, there are old violins that have been violins as long or longer than it's been trees. This is highly debated over at Mandolin Café. Mandolins have several types of finish. Where violins have a semi-standard type of finish, and adhesive.
Could be solved by asking what the person meant by their comment. But hey, it keeps the old forum moving.

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/04/2023:  10:40:35

I probably should've asked her what she meant but I was just agreeing with her at the time, then thought more about it later. The issue, as I experience it, has to do with the purity of sound, meaning the main tone and overtones sound smooth so hitting the correct pitch seems easy. Some fiddles are a little jagged sounding and are even more obvious when playing double stops. And maybe it's all in my imagination, except her comment made me aware of it again. Also, it doesn't have to do with volume, just tone I think.

kjb - Posted - 01/05/2023:  06:59:38

yes I believe violins wake up when you play them , I have a feeling they wake up faster if you are a good player , but just speculation on my part.

Earworm - Posted - 01/05/2023:  07:19:35

This makes me curious, though Brian Wood whether this is a self-fulfilling prophecy in action. You said this fiddle is your favorite, and you therefore play it more. As you play it, all its little fiddle atoms start to align and it starts to learn how to act like a fiddle (or however this happens). The others that you don't play or play as much are still "asleep" so to speak. Then your friend confirms this and you likely give even more energy to the favored fiddle. Since you're a builder and presumably interested in selling what you've made, that makes me wonder what would happen if you started to give a little more equal treatment to others.

*The poet / free spirit version of me really digs the idea that the fiddles "wake up" after they're played, petted, given attention, coddled, offered a nice cup of coffee, etc. I also like how no one suggests that this doesn't really happen, though we may debate why it does. :)

kjb - Posted - 01/06/2023:  05:49:21

thinking about his while playing yesterday, I wonder if its just you get the bow arm moving more efficiently, thus making a better sound after some time.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/07/2023:  13:47:26

If understand the laws of physics are correct, it doesn't work that way... the the fiddle itself has no built in, fixed intonation, scale nodes or such... is just going to reflect the intonation from the strings and fingers... can't improve it.