bees - Posted - 04/27/2022:  08:38:04

I use a Bartlett condenser microphone on my fiddle and I quite like it. It uses an xlr cable and requires phantom power. I'd love to have a volume pedal but all the volume pedals I find only use 1/4 inch jacks. I assume because of the xlr configuration of the microphone that I'd have to use an audio interface of some sort that has a 1/4 inch output that can be fed into a volume pedal and then the volume pedal can feed the mixer with another 1/4 jack cable...?? Seems complicated. I guess I should learn to play quieter but I always get scratchy when I do that...

JonD - Posted - 04/27/2022:  09:45:52

A straight-ahead volume pedal on a mic preamp could be asking for trouble… feedback etc. Better might be a floor box with a mic input and a ‘boost’ switch that you can tweak beforehand, and then stomp on when you want that extra, well, boost in volume. Grace Designs Felix preamp has this feature and it’s a great sounding 2 channel floor preamp.

farmerjones - Posted - 04/27/2022:  12:38:07

I use an ART tube MP microphone preamp. It has both 1/4 & XLR in & out. It also has phantom power. Between this preamp and the amp, one could put any effects pedal one wants. A wah-wah (volume) pedal would be such.

Initially, I didn't think a preamp was a big deal. I have mine set at unity. It still stabilizes the signal. You may find you may be able to control your volume dynamically, by your playing, once your signal is more stable. It really helps me when I play less than full-bore. 

Edited by - farmerjones on 04/27/2022 12:43:38

DougD - Posted - 04/27/2022:  13:42:11

I think Steve's suggestion will work, wth a couple things to keep in mind. Where is your phantom power coming from now? You can't put anything, like a volume pedal, between it and the microphone, and they have to be connected with a balanced line (generally an XLR connection). And where is your "mixer" located? Once you change to a 1/4" (generally unbalanced high impedance) line you will be limited to about the length of a guitar cord. This is fine if you're connecting to an onstage amp, as Steve suggested but if you need to connect to a remote mixer you'll need a direct box to convert back to a balanced (XLR connector) line.
I'm sure a Grace preamp is superb, but they're expensive, and I don't think will really do what you want anyway.

Edited by - DougD on 04/27/2022 13:47:43

bees - Posted - 04/27/2022:  15:59:46

I'm the 'sound guy' in the group - we're a bunch of geezers playing old folks homes and local festivals - so the mixer sits right beside me during gigs. I currently get my phantom power from the mixer, a Zoom LiveTrak L-20.

DougD - Posted - 04/27/2022:  18:33:21

So, preamp - pedal - line input on the Zoom ought to work, assuming the pedal can handle a line level signal. I have no idea, but the people selling them ought to know.
BTW, I looked around a little and players of other instruments with clip on mics (like sax) have the same problem, and it doesn't look like volume pedals with XLR in/outs exist.
PS - I guess if your mixer had a channel send/return you might be able to insert the volume pedal there, but I don't think the Zoom has that feature.

Edited by - DougD on 04/27/2022 18:47:57

bees - Posted - 04/27/2022:  19:51:12

DougD - yes, I don't think the Zoom can do send/return. As you say, I guess other instruments like sax also have the same issues. Just about everything I see is directed at guitars and generally 'real' electric guitars - our two guitarists use acoustic Martins with Martin pickups in them. That doesn't mean the boxes won't work for what I want but I only know enough about sound systems and electronics to be dangerous and confuse myself. Hi-Z, Lo-Z, matching...

Steve suggested the ART tube microphone preamp. I looked that up and it looks interesting. Steve: do you use it for your fiddle or some other application?

I had been thinking of a 'gas pedal' style volume control but on further reflection I think a stomp on/off button with a variable gain that can be preselected would be better. A straight booster. In the 'off' position I'd be playing backup and in the 'on' position doing a solo. Again, though, they all seem to be designed for electric guitars and for generating distortion. I want a clean sound into the mixer. I EQ on my mixer and have all those settings saved in the mixer for everyone in the band.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/27/2022:  23:32:08

I used to use a battery powered belt clip pre amp with a volume control. But after a while i found that the rest of the band just laid off a bit during any fiddle stuff, so i didn't need to mess with it really. More like sound re-enforcement rather than amplification, just like going out for a beer and a tune but getting payed..Win win



Apart from loud drum kit/electric bass gigs, where i used an electric fiddle with effects (eq, reverb, volume etc)....And ear plugs. Sometimes we got a "Sound engineer" at those sort of gigs.... Which was nice...Sometimes....

pmiller510 - Posted - 04/28/2022:  06:31:51

Found this on the Barlett Mic site:

Volume control for the phantom-powered mics:
Rapco Horizon CVPBLOX volume control It does not pass phantom power to the mic, so you will need to plug a phantom power supply between the mic and the Rapco volume control. Some phantom power supplies are the Behringer PS400 and Rolls PB23.

farmerjones - Posted - 04/28/2022:  07:31:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by bees

Steve suggested the ART tube microphone preamp. I looked that up and it looks interesting. Steve: do you use it for your fiddle or some other application?

 

---

I use the preamp on stage with a L.R. Baggs pickup (essentially the bridge is a pickup). But you see it says it's  for microphones. It does have phantom power on/off.  There are more expensive preamps. I've attempted to bake this one out in the Sun. I could not even touch  it. Yet it still works. I run it into  either a Fender Champ 40, or 100. 

One thing, both of those stage amps have is a "clean/lead" switch input. I just don't need it in my application. They just want to hear the closest thing to a crying acoustic fiddle I can give. I think it's difficult to run everything into a board. Get everything  balanced. Then expect the fiddle to swell in and out of the mix. I know our guys have a heck of a time. They forget I can control it dynamically, so until they leave the levels alone, I either get lost in the mix or blast over the rest. 

bees - Posted - 04/28/2022:  10:22:30

Pete and PMIller510. I considered a belt-type volume control but actually if I was going to do that I could just lean over and tweak the fader on the mixer but that's a bit finicky and I don't want to stop playing to tweak things for a solo. That's why I'm starting to lean towards a box with a preset boost level.

Having a professional sound guy running the sound during a gig certainly makes us sound a lot better and more in balance but typically it's just me trying to adjust stuff on the fly.

Steve, my secondary fiddle has the LR Baggs. I like the Bartlett better except at times I can get feedback from it. I always have to make sure I don't point it at a speaker... Generally our band isn't very loud so stage noise is low.

DougD - Posted - 04/28/2022:  10:28:05

Bob, I was thinking that a boost footswitch might be better for you too and I wanted to mention that in my last post, but the editing option timed out. MXR and others make stomp box boosts. These are, by definition, active devices intended for guitar levels, so make sure it can handle the line level output of a preamp.
If you have an extra mixer channel, you could use something like this after the preamp: sweetwater.com/store/detail/Bi...tch-pedal
Its meant to switch between amps, but you could run the "B" output into a second mixer channel with a higher gain setting. You could put any kind of effects, compression etc. on that channel too if you want.
You can also probably create a "pseudo" send/receive by not putting your channel into the main mix with the fader, but use a monitor send (if you have an extra) to the boost, and run it back into the line input on an extra channel, which is in the main mix.
Do your guitar players use preamps, or are you running the bare pickups into the Zoom? One thing I've learned from frustrating experience is that piezo pickups definitely need to be used with an input with a high impedance. If they don't have preamps, inputs 1 and 2 on the Zoom have a "Hi-Z" option which might work if there's enough gain. Active direct boxes like the Countryman should also work, but they cost as much or more than the cheaper preamps.
I'm winging it a little here since I don't encounter this stuff very often. I used to do sound for dance weeks, and some of the contra dance fiddlers used Audio Technica microphones similar in concept to the Bartlett. Problem was that the output was very hot, and couldn't be muted for tuning. So a friend of mine in Boston designed and built a little belt pack box with a volume control and mute switch that passed phantom power IIRC. They were kind of custom made, and the rotary volume control was just to set a level in the ensemble, not to boost leads, but you probably could use it for that if you had enough time.
Good luck.

Edited by - DougD on 04/28/2022 10:35:03

pete_fiddle - Posted - 04/28/2022:  11:48:27

Cut is always better than boost. Unless you are after an electric amplified sound. An electret mic like the Bartlett will give a good natural sound. But from what i have heard a DPA electret mic is probably better, at a massive price hike. They call them condensers but they are really professionally well tweaked electret's. But imo a good "true" condenser mic will out perform them both, (It's close with the DPA electret's though), and you can just back off from the mic or come forward for a solo.



There comes a point when "Any" microphone (Ribbon,dynamic, condenser or electret), will either suffer from feedback or suffer from too much eq-ing/filtering to cut the feedback, that it sounds worse than a piezzo pickup. Then again there are systems that use a mix of the two. and you can adjust between them.



My point is that all of the band has to be aware of the overall  sound, and be able to adjust accordingly. And/or you need a good sound engineer that works with the band, to get a good live sound at loud gigs. Stomping on a peddle wouldn't be subtle enough for acoustic stuff imo.

JonD - Posted - 04/28/2022:  13:50:35

I do like Doug’s idea of a boost pedal after the preamp output. There is the TC Electronic Spark Mini which claims a clean signal boost & is adjustable, for $59. Establish boost/nonboost levels during sound check and go from there.

bees - Posted - 04/29/2022:  08:28:48

I'm still poking around on this. Thanks for the comments.

Doug: The idea of on-the-fly switching of channels on the mixer sounded interesting as we still have a few open channels on the mixer so I looked at the sweetwater pedal switch you indicated. Unfortunately it doesn't accept an xlr input so I'd still have to do another box in front of it.

Our guitarists use Martins and I think they both have Fishman active pickups in them but I haven't found any info on them. I plug them into channels 1 and 2 on the Zoom L20 with the Hi-Z turned on. I don't know that they are Hi-Z but it seems like every other guitar is expected to be Hi-Z so that's what I do and it seems to work fine. They have preamps in them because they have volume knobs and quit when their batteries die.

Pete: Cut being better than boost is a different way to look at it but I guess a stomp boost box can be considered a cut box, it's just how you think about it, or am I missing something?

Jon: I had been looking at the TC Spark boost boxes, maybe the bigger one with a bit more control over the input and output. I'm more stuck on the preamp to feed it. I might go ahead and buy the boost box now because our lead guitarist uses a volume pedal that gives us trouble. The box might solve that problem.

Steve: I called Sweetwater and my guy said that the ART Microphone Preamp would colour my signal too much. He suggested the Eventide Mixing Link at $350 (yikes). On your ART preamp, what setting do you use for that big mysterious knob in the middle?



Thanks, Bob

Edited by - bees on 04/29/2022 08:30:02

DougD - Posted - 04/29/2022:  14:39:15

Bob - Yes, the Radial AB box has 1/4 inch connections, meant for guitars. I thought you were considering also using a preamp. I just remembered that there are things like this available: sescom.com/products/view/produ...nnectmute
Its meant to connect two mics to one input, but its passive so its bidirectional. The problem is that the connectors are the wrong gender, so you'd need three XLR "barrels" to make it work (or one cable, female at each end and two male at each end, which I think can be bought, and certainly could be made). Also, I don't know how quiet it is, especially with phantom power. You might need a phantom supply between it and the Bartlett, especially if it sent the power just towards the microphone.
The marketing for little "tube" preamps like the ART is that they work some sort of "tube magic" that will warm up your signal, especially to take the "edge" off digital recording. I don't know how true that is, but its probably what your Sweetwater sales rep was referring to. I would think there are inexpensive "plain Jane" preamps around, but I didn't find any. I hesitate to recommend buying used audio equipment, but for years I've had a Symetrix SX202 two channel preamp that's worked great and sounds noticeably better than the preamps in smaller "professional" consoles. They're around used, but not too often.
You could still try the method I suggested using a monitor send to the boost, returned to a spare channel. It may sound complicated, but its really simple.
Let us know how it goes.

Edited by - DougD on 04/29/2022 14:54:21

DougD - Posted - 04/29/2022:  15:13:58

Hey Bob - Looks like this might do the job right out of the box. News to me!
sweetwater.com/store/detail/MS...-b-switch

farmerjones - Posted - 04/29/2022:  17:11:29

Bob,
My ART preamp does not have the dial which you speak. I have a lesser model with only two pots. I keep the 2 pots at 12 o'clock. Perceived to be unity.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/29/2022:  20:28:04

Not sure if it was mentioned, but you can buy a simple stand alone phantom power box, plug the mic directly into. Don't need the 48v on XLR pin from mixer. The output can then routed to anything you want.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 04/29/2022 20:30:49

JonD - Posted - 04/30/2022:  09:41:04

Bob wrote: “I'm more stuck on the preamp to feed it.”

Have you checked out the Radial PZ-pro 2-channel stage box? You get the boost and a mute switch as well. With a Bartlett mic on stage I wouldn’t want to be far from a mute switch!

ChickenMan - Posted - 05/01/2022:  12:09:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by JonD

Bob wrote: “I'm more stuck on the preamp to feed it.”



Have you checked out the Radial PZ-pro 2-channel stage box? You get the boost and a mute switch as well. With a Bartlett mic on stage I wouldn’t want to be far from a mute switch!

---

I would guess that nice looking unit is out of his price range, but it does seem to tick all of the boxes. 

DougD - Posted - 05/01/2022:  12:15:07

It seems we've come full circle, except at about half the price of the Grace Designs! However, the Radial PZ Pro offers a "piezo boost" on either channel, but not on the microphone input, which is what Bob needs.

Edited by - DougD on 05/01/2022 12:17:52

JonD - Posted - 05/01/2022:  14:56:14

Doug you are right, it’s only changing impedance and adding a fixed 10 db boost to the 1/4 inch input. I should have looked more carefully.

bees - Posted - 05/01/2022:  18:35:08

I'm back, trying to catch up with you guys.
I keep circling back to Steve's ART tube preamp. The knob in the middle has a spot labelled flat which I guess would be a mostly unprocessed signal. (I'm not a great fiddler so I play flat most of the time - what I need is a sharp setting :-)...)
Doug: You mentioned XLR barrels - do you mean the adapters that will convert an XLR cable end into a TRS 1/4 inch plug? I'd forgotten about those... Why can't I stick one of those on the end of my Bartlett mic cable and run it straight into the boost box?? The TC Spark boost box doesn't have phantom power - would the boost box pass the phantom power from the mixer to the mic?
But then, one issue with the electret condensers with phantom power is anytime you interrupt the phantom power you get a major noise spike. For example, you can't put a mute switch between the mic and the mixer for that reason and I also figure you can't put the push to talk switch Doug suggested in there either. George suggested a phantom power box - Bartlett mic -> phantom power box -> boost box -> mixer. Would that work?
Thanks for all the comments!!!
Bob

bees - Posted - 05/18/2022:  08:37:17

An update:
I finally decided to go the route Sweetwater suggested. An Eventide Mixing Link with TC Electronics Spark Booster. Not good. The Eventide is fine but the Spark Booster creates a lot of distortion when it is adjusted to give a reasonable volume boost. When I turn it up all the way I can recreate Jimi Hendrix's Woodstock National Anthem. Kind of cool but not exactly what I was looking for.

yongfentables - Posted - 09/02/2022:  01:47:06

Well, I don't recommend you use the XLR volume pedal system. I wouldn't say I like it, and sometimes this system causes the bad quality of recordings. Have you ever tried microphones with the pre-boost pedal system included in the device? In my opinion, it is a cheaper way to set the ASMR microphone with the pedal. I use these kinds of microphones often for streaming and youtube videos. I suggest you read articles about the best ASMR microphone models at this site asmrmicrophones.com/. They have a piece of pretty good information regarding multiple microphone models on their site.

Edited by - yongfentables on 09/02/2022 01:47:38