RichJ - Posted - 01/03/2022:  06:22:35

I 'm in the process of regluing/re-tuning this old workhorse. After cleaning up the outer surfaces I'd like to add some minimal shine without messing with a refinish. Any ideas on the best way to do this?

coryobert - Posted - 01/03/2022:  07:04:13

I'm sure I'll get some blow back from the purists, but I was given a fiddle that was all scratched to hell, with a color that I didn't really like anyway. I LIGHTLY sanded it, being careful not to go into bare wood, and applied gun stock oil to it, and I think it came out beautifully. It has a really nice satiny finish which I prefer to a shiny look, and it sounds fine. I play it all the time.

Edited by - coryobert on 01/03/2022 07:05:51

Jimbeaux - Posted - 01/03/2022:  07:42:08

If it's a valuable instrument (which I don't think) or you want to play it safe, go to a luthier. Otherwise....



Spit and a paper towel will go a long way to making it look nicer. If black is coming off, you're all good. As soon as you see the slightest bit of brown, red or yellow, it's time to stop, or you already went too far.



After that, you could just stop there or try a violin polish. I use one available in Germany, but I hear Hill's violin polish is nice.

White mineral oil is good too.

Just remember that any oil or oil based cleaner will make things more difficult for a professional luthier in the future, so you'll have to decide whether you'll be happy with "good enough ".

Edited by - Jimbeaux on 01/03/2022 07:43:28

pete_fiddle - Posted - 01/03/2022:  08:34:20

Almond oil is not too oily i have used this sparingly to spruce up an old inexpensive fiddle. Works good on a fingerboard.

Fiddlemaker5224 - Posted - 01/03/2022:  08:37:03

I would suggest using a white paperbag, cut into small squares. Dampened a little, this will allow small circular rubbing of the areas that need to be cleaned. Do not use much water as this could damage the instrument if it gets inside. The paperbag will act like a 6k grit micromesh sheet. Then determine what type of finish you currently have on the instrument. This will determine what your course of action will be at a later date. This works best when you practice on a scrap part from an old fiddle.

coryobert - Posted - 01/03/2022:  10:06:18

quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddlemaker5224

I would suggest using a white paperbag, cut into small squares. Dampened a little, this will allow small circular rubbing of the areas that need to be cleaned. Do not use much water as this could damage the instrument if it gets inside. The paperbag will act like a 6k grit micromesh sheet. Then determine what type of finish you currently have on the instrument. This will determine what your course of action will be at a later date. This works best when you practice on a scrap part from an old fiddle.

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Interesting. Like a small white bag you would get like a pastry or something in?

Fiddlemaker5224 - Posted - 01/03/2022:  10:20:10

quote:

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Originally posted by coryobert

quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddlemaker5224

I would suggest using a white paperbag, cut into small squares. Dampened a little, this will allow small circular rubbing of the areas that need to be cleaned. Do not use much water as this could damage the instrument if it gets inside. The paperbag will act like a 6k grit micromesh sheet. Then determine what type of finish you currently have on the instrument. This will determine what your course of action will be at a later date. This works best when you practice on a scrap part from an old fiddle.

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Interesting. Like a small white bag you would get like a pastry or something in?

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Yes, the brown paper bags are about 600 grit, and work well for polishing finishes on other woodworking projects.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/03/2022:  11:10:38

The violin looks like it needs a better cleaning. It’s possible to improve the appearance by French polishing, but that is a task that needs to be done properly to avoid disastrous results.



I would strongly advise against applying an oil. There may well be spots where the varnish is completely worn off. If oil penetrates into the wood it will kill the tone and weaken the wood.

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 01/03/2022 11:17:22

RichJ - Posted - 01/03/2022:  11:43:02

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

The violin looks like it needs a better cleaning. It’s possible to improve the appearance by French polishing, but that is a task that needs to be done properly to avoid disastrous results.



I would strongly advise against applying an oil. There may well be spots where the varnish is completely worn off. If oil penetrates into the wood it will kill the tone and weaken the wood.

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Yes. there are places on the front plate were the finish is completely worn away.  I have not done a thorough clean as yet and perhaps should send another photo after this is done. I agree with your advice on oil finish for tonal wood.

ChickenMan - Posted - 01/03/2022:  14:58:20

Don't "revarnish" it. The finish on a violin is not varnish.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/03/2022:  15:39:59

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

Don't "revarnish" it. The finish on a violin is not varnish.

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Nonsense. Violins are varnished, usually with a spirit or oil varnish, depending on the region or training of the maker. Even doing a simple Google search for varnish shows this, and "violin" is the first listing under "types."

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varnish

There are some self-taught makers who use things like oils instead of varnish, but that is not a practice among good makers.

The OP's violin appears to be a commercial German trade violin, so the varnish is likely a spirit varnish. I would not jump to revarnishing unless the original varnish could not be salvaged. A lot can be done to restore the original appearance without removing much material, if any. It does take skill to pull it off nicely, but that is one of the ways many good luthiers make a living.

Here is a very interesting article on Parisian varnish that gives a lot of information about both oil and spirit varnishes:

stringsmagazine.com/a-look-at-...-varnish/

Here is an article about varnish making by Joe Robson, one of the leading varnish makers for luthiers. He has also had a long career in commercial varnishes for other uses.

thestrad.com/lutherie/the-comp...6.article

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 01/03/2022 15:52:22

RichJ - Posted - 01/04/2022:  03:45:03

I only recently became aware of the difference between oil and alcohol varnishes. Most of us are familiar with oil/turpentine/mineral spirit-based varnishes sold in hardware stores. These are used mostly for finishing/re-finishing furniture. Oil-based varnishes dry relatively slow (hours) and because of this penetrate deeper into the wood fibers. Alcohol varnishes are methanol (wood alcohol) based. This type dries very fast (minutes), consequently this type of varnish does not penetrate as deep. I suspect because the thin wood construction of violins the deeper penetration of oil-based varnishes has a greater effect on the final tone quality of the instrument compared with alcohol based varnishes. I'm sure Rich M will have more to say on this.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/04/2022:  09:42:03

Whatever the varnish type, it’s important that it doesn’t penetrate into the wood. Before applying varnish, most makers will prepare the wood by filling the pores and sealing. A very small amount of varnish may end up in the pores in the end, but the bulk of it remains on the outer surface of the wood. If color goes into the wood directly without a ground it will stain into the wood and “burn” it, ruining the appearance and figure of the wood. Weak stains are often used on newer wood to enhance the color before sealing, but these stains are much more dilute and are applied very carefully. If you look at very old Italian violins, many of them have little to no varnish left. What you see is actually the ground (plus years of French polishing in some cases). The varnish adds color to the instrument while emphasizing the features of the wood itself. It also protects the instrument to some extent.

Oil varnishes are made by adding an oil, typically linseed, to resins and cooking to melt the resin and add color, then adding pigments as needed. Spirit varnishes, at least for violin making, are made by dissolving resins in ethyl alcohol (not methyl!) and sometimes adding other ingredients to add to brushability, and pigments of some kind for color.

ChickenMan - Posted - 01/04/2022:  17:26:31

Im-a sorry, boss.
I've seen plenty of fiddles ruined by someone sanding it and "varnishing" it with the inappropriate substance, but you do what you want, RichJ.

RichJ - Posted - 01/05/2022:  15:55:22

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

Im-a sorry, boss.

I've seen plenty of fiddles ruined by someone sanding it and "varnishing" it with the inappropriate substance, but you do what you want, RichJ.

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Remember I'm starting out with this. I doubt I could make it look any worse.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 01/05/2022:  16:33:22

quote:

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Originally posted by RichJ

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

Im-a sorry, boss.

I've seen plenty of fiddles ruined by someone sanding it and "varnishing" it with the inappropriate substance, but you do what you want, RichJ.

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Remember I'm starting out with this. I doubt I could make it look any worse.

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" I don't know a little paint, a few flowers a couple of throw pillows..."  Egor, from Young Frankenstein..

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/06/2022:  00:52:43

This is making me think about the thread on sleeper violins. There are so many old German violins out there that can, with proper attention, be turned into wonderful instruments.

I have the great fortune to work with someone who has made an international reputation for himself by improving instruments. It takes an artistic sensibility to not only recognize the potential in a heavily compromised instrument, but to also know how to bring out the best qualities or improve in areas that don’t work. Part of it (in this case) comes from varnishing over 100,000 instruments, part from examining great violins and drawing inspiration.

Again, revarnishing is not something to be done lightly, and one has to be comfortable with the knowledge that the value of the instrument may be negated if the results are not good. There are many pitfalls to avoid, but certain, if few, people, have that ability.

RichJ - Posted - 01/06/2022:  02:47:29

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

This is making me think about the thread on sleeper violins. There are so many old German violins out there that can, with proper attention, be turned into wonderful instruments.



I have the great fortune to work with someone who has made an international reputation for himself by improving instruments. It takes an artistic sensibility to not only recognize the potential in a heavily compromised instrument, but to also know how to bring out the best qualities or improve in areas that don’t work. Part of it (in this case) comes from varnishing over 100,000 instruments, part from examining great violins and drawing inspiration.



Again, revarnishing is not something to be done lightly, and one has to be comfortable with the knowledge that the value of the instrument may be negated if the results are not good. There are many pitfalls to avoid, but certain, if few, people, have that ability.

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Rich - You mentioned French polishing a couple of times. What are the risk/benefits in doing this compared with revarnishing? 

Like any other highly skilled endeavor I suspect there are luthiers who focus on a sub-specialty like varnishing. The knowledge and experience necessary to understand all of the ingredients and preparation that go into varnishing or refinish of an expensive violin must be immense. And, if this is not done correctly it has  potential to destroy, or at least decrease all the work that went into construction of the instrument.  

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/06/2022:  08:48:13

quote:

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Originally posted by RichJ

Rich - You mentioned French polishing a couple of times. What are the risk/benefits in doing this compared with revarnishing? 

Like any other highly skilled endeavor I suspect there are luthiers who focus on a sub-specialty like varnishing. The knowledge and experience necessary to understand all of the ingredients and preparation that go into varnishing or refinish of an expensive violin must be immense. And, if this is not done correctly it has  potential to destroy, or at least decrease all the work that went into construction of the instrument.  

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French polishing provides a coating of clear shellac that can restore the lustre and surface of a worn varnish. The method of application keeps the layer thin so that it doesn't take away much of the texture of the wood. Like any method of application, this should not be done until the instrument is fully cleaned and there are no open cracks; new varnish will seal in any remaining dirt and penetrate into openings and contaminate and stain the gluing surfaces.

Another approach is to brush varnish over the whole surface instead of polishing it on. This can be useful if more is needed, especially in cases where the varnish has been damaged by heat or abrasion. The drawback is that more care must be taken to avoid problems like pooling, pulling, fish eyes, orange peel, and streaks/overly visible brush strokes. 

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 01/06/2022 08:48:30