JessicaRose - Posted - 10/26/2008:  23:32:56

Here's a picture that shows which notes are where on the fiddle fingerboard:

http://mandolinformation.blogspot.c...t-board.html

I pasted a bunch of 'em on a page, printed it out, and got my friend Eric to show me some nice sounding chords he uses for songs in A. Just circled the notes on the picture. Kind of neat to be able to see everything laid out like that.

-Jess

I pick, therefore I grin.

OTJunky - Posted - 10/27/2008:  04:10:32

There have been a couple of threads that contain posts about the influence of the mandolin on Bluegrass and Swing fiddling - especially in regard to improvisation.

Bill Monroe was a mandolin player but had strong opinions about how he wanted his fiddlers to play (Actually he had strong opinions about everything...). Anyhow, the folklore goes that many of his fiddlers learned to picture mandolin chord formations on the fiddle fingerboard, then improvise out of those chord postions. That way they could play in any key Monroe wanted to play in and come up with something interesting to play no matter what key Monroe was singing in. This also helps with double stops - especially when moving between chords.

Similarly, Johnny Gimbel also played mandolin and worked out a lot of his swing improvisations on mandolin - then transferred them to fiddle.

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

superdave2112 - Posted - 10/27/2008:  06:11:35

I like how the image is marked; "To tuners" and "To bridge."

Where's that confounded bridge?!?

Thank goodness, we were really lost. Jim here wouldn't ask for directions. So we turn left at the fifth fret, and it's which way to the tuners again?


I had a guitar teacher tell me to think of my guitar fretboard as a conveyor belt, when I was a kid. He was a lefty. Anyway, it REALLY applies to the fiddle/mandolin, I think. See the pattern? Everything repeats itself, just one octave, and a whole step up from the G and D strings, on the A and E. A big conveyor belt. Am I spelling that right? Conveyor. Conveyer. Whatever.

You guys get me, right?



Always most sincerely yours,

David Loudenback

Edited by - superdave2112 on 10/28/2008 19:49:26

BanjoBrad - Posted - 10/27/2008:  11:23:56

I've played fretted instruments most of my life (since high school), guitar mainly, then banjo.

When I started on fiddle I did it without tape or dots. I picked up a friend's fiddle while he had some tape marks on it, and was completely lost! I cannot think frets when I have a fiddle in my hands, for some reason, it completely messes with my mind.

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"I''ll tune up my fiddle, and rosin my bow, to make myself welcome wherever I go." Tommy Jarrell - Drunken Hiccoughs
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JessicaRose - Posted - 10/27/2008:  22:03:41

I kind of get you. I mean, there's the same notes and all, shifting two strings down and two frets up every time. But...I'm guessing you meant G and D strings, not G and A. No?
-Jess

quote:

---

Originally posted by superdave2112

...I had a guitar teacher tell me to think of my guitar fretboard as a conveyor belt, when I was a kid. He was a lefty. Anyway, it REALLY applies to the fiddle/mandolin, I think. See the pattern? Everything repeats itself, just one octave, and a whole step up from the G and A strings, on the A and E. A big conveyor belt. Am I spelling that right? Conveyor. Conveyer. Whatever.

You guys get me, right?



Always most sincerely yours,

David Loudenback

---

superdave2112 - Posted - 10/28/2008:  16:01:52

Oh yeah, sorry about that. Dain bramage. I'm sure it's residule damage from the 1980's.



Always most sincerely yours,

David Loudenback

Fidla - Posted - 11/23/2008:  08:08:53

Bill Monroe's mom was a fiddler. That's where he learned all those great Celtic tunes that he incorporated into his music.

Adam R Sweet
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coelhoe - Posted - 11/23/2008:  10:13:19

Adam: While it is true that Bill Monroe's mother played several instruments, including button accordion, harmonica and fiddle, she died when Bill was ten years old. However, Monroe often pointed to his mother's brother, Pen Vanderver ("Uncle Pen") as his main musical influence. Monroe spent his teen age years playing back-up guitar at dances for his uncle and for a black dance fiddler named Arnold Schultz, who also influenced Monroe's music, especially where there are blues influences.

Bill's older brother, Birch, was a very fine dance fiddler, who played professionally for dance groups for several years. He was a a part of the original "Monroe Brothers" group. It is a shame that his music was not more extensively recorded.

Which "great Celtic tunes" tunes are you referring to?

Dennis




"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

Edited by - coelhoe on 11/23/2008 10:16:55

Fidla - Posted - 12/19/2008:  05:50:21

And Bill had an accordion player in his "bluegrass" band

______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

coelhoe - Posted - 12/19/2008:  07:23:55

Actually, that accordion player was Sally Ann Forrester. the wife of fiddler "Big Howdy" Forrester. He is pictured with the Bluegrass Boys in the promo of 1942, while she is in the promo shot from 1943, after Howdy had joined Roy Acuff and had been replaced in Monroe's group by Chubby Wise.

Wilene was her given name. "Sally Ann" was her stage name, taken from the fiddle tune. The 1943 band also carried a harmonica player but there was no bass player in that particular group. She is pictured again in 1945 in the band that had added Lester Flatt and "Stringbean." and also by then a bass player. Sally is listed as a participant on piano accordion the following recordings: "Rocky Road Blues," "Kentucky Waltz" (which is credited to Clyde Moody), "True Life Blues," 'Nobody Loves Me," Goodbye Old Pal," "Footprints in the Snow," "Blue Grass Special," and "Come Back to Me in my Dreams."

By the next recording session, Earl Scruggs had joined the band and Sally Ann with her accordion had vanished.

I played square dances with Bill's older brother Birch Monroe in '70 or '71 out at the old barn in Beanblossum. Birch was a fine oldtime Kentucky dance fiddler and sang bass in the gospel quartets. He was several years older than Bill and would surely have recalled his mother's musical repertoire, but I never thought to ask. What would we give now for an album of Birch's fiddling?

Dennis

It is surprisingly difficult to find clear evidence of traditional Anglo-Irish melodies in Monroe's overall record history. By my own count, just a bit more than 10% can be traced to obvious traditional materials. Monroe was far more creative than he is often given credit for.

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

DougD - Posted - 12/19/2008:  07:30:07

"Monroe was far more creative than he is often given credit for." You got that right, Dennis!

There's electric organ on some of Bill Monroe's Gospel recordings too, not that it matters.
I think Arnold Schultz was a guitar player, Dennis,although he may have played the fiddle too. He also supposedly influenced Merle Travis.

Still wondering what "great Celtic tunes" you're thinking of, Adam. "Monroe's Hornpipe?"

Edited by - DougD on 12/19/2008 07:34:20

coelhoe - Posted - 12/19/2008:  09:17:20

On his first recording "Muleskinne Blues" on October 7th, 1940, Monroe himself played guitar so as to get the rhythm "just right." On the other cuts at that session, Clyde Moody played guitar. These were on Victor Bluebird labels.

The next recordings (Columbia) were in February of 1945 and Tex Willis played guitar. The following session in 1946 finds Lester Flatt with the guitar chores.

Monroe often spoke of the influence of Arnold Schultz, an African-American guitar player, had on his own musical development. But he encountered Schultz much earlier in the years that he was back up guitarist for his Uncle Pen at dances around Rosine

There is also apparently an unlisted piano on several of Monroe's early cuts when his producer simply joined in to "thicken" the mix.








"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

DougD - Posted - 12/19/2008:  10:42:36

Dennis, in your earlier post you referred to "a black dance fiddler named Arnold Schultz.." Thats what I was commenting on. I believe he was a guitarist. I think Owen Bradley is playing some organ on the "I Saw the Light" album.

coelhoe - Posted - 12/20/2008:  10:13:42

Doug: A slip of the fingers. You are correct, Schultz was a guitarist, as I mentioned above. I do believe it was Owen Bradley on piano.

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

Fidla - Posted - 01/03/2009:  07:56:06

Owen Bradley the mandolinist? I knew an Owen Bradley in college. We both went to Hampshire in the 1980's. He was an awesome musician.

______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

DougD - Posted - 01/03/2009:  08:18:31

"Owen Bradley the mandolinist?" No, Owen Bradley was a pioneering producer, studio owner and record company executive in Nashville: http://www.countrymusichalloffame.c...spx?cid=102#

Fidla - Posted - 01/04/2009:  06:41:35

What picks to do you use?

______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com

coelhoe - Posted - 01/04/2009:  10:14:52

Adam: To whom is your question addressed? If it is to me, when I play 5-string banjo three-finger style I use two Dunlop .025 finger picks, and a National thumb pick. However, when I played with Birch Monroe, I played guitar.

Still wondering about Monroe's "great Celtic tunes' that you mentioned.

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

DougD - Posted - 01/20/2009:  17:17:04

Dennis, I corrected you when you said "Monroe spent his teen age years playing back-up guitar at dances for his uncle and for a black dance fiddler named Arnold Schultz, who also influenced Monroe's music, especially where there are blues influences."
I've just been reading Ralph Rinzler's chapter on Bill Monroe in Bill Malone's book "Stars of Country Music," and you're right. Arnold Schultz played fiddle as well as guitar, and Bill did back him up at dances as a teenager.
My mistake.

Edited by - DougD on 01/20/2009 17:18:41