DVD-quality lessons (including tabs/sheet music) available for immediate viewing on any device.
Take your playing to the next level with the help of a local or online fiddle teacher.
Monthly newsletter includes free lessons, favorite member content, fiddle news and more.
Premier Sponsors
|
Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/5426
graham - Posted - 10/18/2008: 15:42:59
Does anyone know of a good source for Gypsy fiddle music online? I have heard this form a few times and I once had the pleasure to hear folk fiddle music in rural Romania. It seems that, either correctly or not, Romanian folk fiddle music is sometimes referred to as Gypsy. Anyway, what I heard had beautiful ornamantation and I would like to get the sheet music for a couple of pieces just to give them a try. If I am incorrect in equating the two forms please set me straight.
Bill - Posted - 10/18/2008: 17:08:29
Mel Bay has a book with all the flourishes etc....
"Never met a fiddle I didn''t like." anon
bj - Posted - 10/18/2008: 17:59:08
Romany music is very closely related to Klezmer, since they developed side by side and there is much crossover. There is a lot of Klezmer Music online. Just google it. You'll also do better searching for Roma music if you're looking for that by "gypsys".
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Edited by - bj on 10/18/2008 18:02:53
bj - Posted - 10/18/2008: 18:04:30
Just found this for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...ni_musicians
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
dlight - Posted - 10/19/2008: 18:00:03
Interesting that you're looking for Gypsy music, Graham. You've certainly done enough wandering yourself over the years to qualify as having some Gypsy blood in you! I guess a cross between a Newfoundlander and someone of Roma extraction would be a "Newpsy"!!
Seriously, the great jazz guitarist Django Reinhardt was, himself, of Roma extraction; I have a number of transcriptions of some of his great tunes from the Hot Club of France days with Grappelli. They work wonderfully well on fiddle.
So who''s smarter?? You or the stupid fiddle??
oldtimer - Posted - 10/19/2008: 23:00:50
I have been playing some Gypsy fiddle (with an old-time Texas accent) in recent years. Here is one of our sessions. The tune is Latcho Drom (Good Journey) or sometimes called Tchavolo Swing:
http://www.hangoutstorage.com/fiddl...19102008.mp3
stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
bj - Posted - 10/20/2008: 09:02:13
graham, I think you better specify whether you're interested in Roma folk music (the "gypsy" version of oldtime) or "gypsy jazz" of the Rheinhart/Grapelli type, which is an entirely different thing, though one has its roots in the other.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Fiddlechickaroo - Posted - 10/20/2008: 15:54:39
Old timer, wow that's really a great tune. Would you be able to record it for us without the guitar, so those of us that might want to learn it by ear could better hear the violin. I can hear it well, but it would be easier to try and pick up without the guitar.
Do you play other tunes in this style? I'd love to hear more.
By the way, that is one hot guitar player!!! I love it!!!
Fiddlechickaroo
graham - Posted - 10/21/2008: 05:30:44
Thanks all. I have done a little more research and now can narrow the search to 'Roma' music. My personal experience was in the Brasov/Transylvannia region of Romania, southwest of Moldavia in the Carpathian foothills. It was beautiful music accompanied by accordion and other instruments. The link to Klezmer is also interesting. Here's a coincidence. One group that I heard played a 'Tambal' which bears a strong resemblance to a hammered dulcimer (Dulcimer is a derivative of the Greek 'dulce melos' and it's claimed that the Romanian gypsies introduced it to Greece) . I then discover that this instrument dates to the 11th century. It is likely that the music is quite old as well. We could say 'Old Time'.
Thanks Oldtimer for that wonderful soundclip. We have fodder for a number of threads here.
Dlight, I'm thoroughly amazed by the Django Reinhart guitar and have heard recordings of him and Stephane Grapelli which are awesome. Such is my challenge for the guitar. Yep, as you know, I'm somewhat nomadic and, as a first generation Canadian, descended from what has become probably the most adaptable of Canadian ethnic groups (gotcha thinkin' or laughin'?). I'll talk to you offline soon. I digress.
Do we have any soundclips of Roma fiddle music? As BJ suggests (thanks for the link), this is quite different from Gypsy Jazz.
woodwiz - Posted - 10/21/2008: 06:15:05
Try this for starters, a cliche, maybe, but still stunning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZt...ture=related
He's one of my favorite fiddlers. Plays a Peter Guarnieri, and comes from a long line of Gypsy violin players. Plays and endorses a $700 carbon fiber bow (Artium), BTW.
Michael R
www.kcstrings.com
"Together, we create"
"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford
bj - Posted - 10/21/2008: 06:59:39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkXsKOmuakE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS1y-b5c5Kc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdNrKKQ6zIg
Iincludes Romany version of clogger!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4c__IeE5w
More dancers, and yes, this music is to drive the dancers, correlation to our oldtime there!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5BobwJf6wI
Probably the closest to what you're looking for. There are a couple keywords for this type of music that are given here that should help your search, though you may need to learn the ascii character set to render them, since they're in Hungarian. Try copy/paste first, then try Csardas without the accented a's.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Edited by - bj on 10/21/2008 07:05:25
bj - Posted - 10/21/2008: 07:22:46
Another term to search for, that is more in line with other parts of the European Roma traditional music-- "Tziganes"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT7LR45SPL4
Looks like the Roma version of Oldtime Music Camp. ;-)
Not that I learned anything from her of the music tradition (only the fortune telling, but it doesn't work for me the way it did for her) but my maternal grandmother was Hungarian Roma. So I've always had an interest to some degree.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
graham - Posted - 10/22/2008: 05:53:43
That Roby Lakatos video is amazing. This is light years beyond the hobby player that I try to be. Thanks Woodwiz!
Bj, you have unearthed what must be the entire breadth of Roma violin music videos on the www. As you say, this represents Old Time fiddling in another world. If I can find some simple arrangements of Czardas and the like, I will give it a try but don't expect any sound clips for a while. (Your fortune telling acumen will assert the improbability of my being able to play this very colourful style)
The vibrato, continuous shifting of positions, and multi-style bowing are overwhelming but one can see how taking on a style like this in its most elementary form, will increase your dexterity (LH &RH) and ear. This should help with OTM as we know it.
coelhoe - Posted - 10/22/2008: 08:15:40
There are really a couple of different concerns here. You are talking about at least three different traditions. First , you have traditional Hungarian (Magyar) music, for which the violin is a dominant instrument. Much of this is dance music, including the Csardas. but there is also a large number of songs and other melodies that inform this music.
Next, you have the performance of this music by Roma musicians, for whom the role of dance musician was often the only economic niche they could find in central European economies. Flamboyance and distinctive ornaments are an accepted part of such performance, but there remains a recognition that Roma musicians are doing something that is sort of like the village music but on steroids.
Then, you have the music that is part of Roma culture itself, which is quite different from the dynamic performances of local traditions. This is complicated by the fact that after WW1, a large section of southeastern Hungary (Transylvania, rather like our southern Appalachians) was given to Romania in the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Hungarian music from Transylvania, then repressed in the newly expanded Romania, was often presented in public performance as either "Gypsy" or Romanian for political reasons, when in fact it was Hungarian. This political / cultural situation has only recently begun to be redressed since the "change" of 1989.
The stuff that Roma musicians have played for non-Roma audiences is often distinctive because it is based on the so-called Hungarian pentatonic scale, a melodic minor without the the second or sixth tones. For example, in the key of G this would included the following tones: G Bb C D F. This can also include the tones from the octaves above or below. Also distinctive is the traditional modulation where a melody will end on the root the first time, the fourth the second time, the fifth third time, and then back to the root for the fourth and last time. Within Hungarian music there is some variation to this pattern in that the first line can also end on the fifth or seventh tones. To Western ears, this pattern of not ending a phrase on the root note brings a sense of atonality that adds a feeling of melodic dislocation, i.e. where / what is the root? If you think banjo players obsess over modal fiddle tunes, imagine where they would be in a concept like the above.
While I have some understanding of Hungarian music, I would hope that perhaps another of our colleagues here on the FHO could expand on the music of Roma people themselves. I have listened to this in small clubs and restaurants in smaller Hungarian towns, typically played on violin, hammered dulcimers and electric guitars, and I can find no tonal center at all, which just means that I don't understand what they are doing.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
bj - Posted - 10/22/2008: 16:50:15
quote:
This is complicated by the fact that after WW1, a large section of southeastern Hungary (Transylvania, rather like our southern Appalachians) was given to Romania in the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Hungarian music from Transylvania, then repressed in the newly expanded Romania, was often presented in public performance as either "Gypsy" or Romanian for political reasons, when in fact it was Hungarian. This political / cultural situation has only recently begun to be redressed since the "change" of 1989.
bj - Posted - 10/22/2008: 17:43:17
quote:
Bj, you have unearthed what must be the entire breadth of Roma violin music videos on the www. As you say, this represents Old Time fiddling in another world.
graham - Posted - 10/23/2008: 04:52:54
Thanks Dennis and Bj. This has become quite a lesson in ethnomusicology. Based on what you have said, I did a little searching of the cultural aspects of these musical forms and find that there is a strong relationship between Klezmer, Roma, Hungarian folk and Romanian folk.
There appears to be a large body of research into this area with numerous dissertations on aspects related to our discussion here. I have found reference to an interesting book entitled "The Gypsy Caravan. From Real Roma to Imaginary Gypsies in Western Music' by David Malvinni (2004). The book's description is intriguing so I thought that you may appreciate it:
"A formidable challenge to the study of Roma (Gypsy) music is the muddle of fact and fiction in determining identity. This book investigates "Gypsy music" as a marked and marketable exotic substance, and as a site of active cultural negotiation and appropriation between the real Roma and the idealized Gypsies of the Western imagination. David Malvinni studies specific composers-including Liszt, Brahms, Rachmaninov, Janacek, and Bartók-whose work takes up contested and varied configurations of Gypsy music. The music of these composers is considered alongside contemporary debates over popular music and film, as Malvinni argues that Gypsiness remains impervious to empirical revelations about the "real" Roma."
The reference to the classical composers would indicate that this work may not address folk fiddle as we know it. Nevertheless, I will try to source it through a local library.
Back to the music. It would be neat to find a couple of short relatively easy tunes from this 'sphere of musical genre' ad post to FHO. Like Dennis I would like to hear about the muisc of Roma people themselves. Maybe this book will give some insight if I can find it. Meanwhile, I'll browse the video clips for teh keywords that you suggest Bj. Also, Dennis, the comparison of the Carpathian range in Trannsylvannia and the Southern Appalachians is interesting.
graham - Posted - 10/23/2008: 05:12:32
Bj, your first video, I had missed but it's the style that I was looking for.
Here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkXsKOmuakE
bj - Posted - 10/23/2008: 07:50:30
Well, that's cool. Igor Epstein (who I suspect also has a bit of klezmer background, with that name) has some other vids up on youtube.
As to finding easy tunes, that may be a bit more difficult. This music, in general, was always fairly complex, with lots of ornamentation. You might want to start with the hungarian folk tunes. And we have a new member who I think would be a good source for information, and she also teaches.
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhang....asp?ID=5221
You might also find this discussion on violinist.com to be interesting. I have a feeling that it might make you wanna pack your bags . . .
http://www.violinist.com/discussion....cfm?ID=5645
lt also gives you another keyword to search for-- Lautari.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
bj - Posted - 10/23/2008: 09:51:19
http://www.fiddlingaround.co.uk/eas...e/index.html
There's some info here on technique and tunings, as well as a string trick that is unusual.
coelhoe, you might enjoy this page, it may explain some of the anomalies you sense.
Oh, and did you know that the roots of Romany music are actually in India? This might explain why it doesn't "resolve" for you, since it's translated from a different musical tradition entirely.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
graham - Posted - 10/28/2008: 10:00:59
Thanks for the link. This is a great source of information on a number of different styles. I've found some Brahms Hungarian dances that have a similar style that I'm looking for although they are in guitar format. If I learn one I'll load it.
bj - Posted - 10/30/2008: 06:17:13
In poking around I found this interview with Fabrice Martinez, which has a fair bit about Romanian fiddlers in it. I also found the cultural context of poverty and prejudice and cultural theft to be helpful in explaining some things about whether you get answers to questions when you use the words "gypsy" or "romany".
http://www.fiddle.com/articles.htm#2
I thought you might find it helpful in your quest.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
graham - Posted - 10/30/2008: 16:01:38
Bj.
Thank you for the link and the political overtones are certainly not lost. My initial inclination was to find another way to pose my initial question howver I was not sufficiently conversant with the various musical styles to be more precise. My comment ws purely from a musical perspective and not wishing to offend anyone or any style of folk music. I am truly a neophyte in the realm of ethnomusicology and, as Coelhoe points out, we have ventured into numerous, somewhat overlapping, genres. From what I can find and what has been said here, it seems that my question regarding "gypsy"+"fiddle" music has created a useful dialogue. I trust that we are all a little more aware of the power of musical expression as a result. I suggest that you listen to Beja's uploaded music for three vantages. They are great performances!
ladymuse - Posted - 11/01/2008: 15:54:27
Hey Graham -
here's that MelBay Gypsy Violin book - (mentioned previously)
(this one's on Amazon, so you can look inside)
Elderly instruments has it, and poss Janet Davis -
It looks COOL! (check out the table of contents)
http://www.amazon.com/Bays-Gypsy-Vi...p/078666570X
jen!
also (same page under Buy Together) - Mel Bay presents Gypsy Violin Basics: A Beginner's Guide (Paperback)
Edited by - ladymuse on 11/01/2008 16:01:48
bj - Posted - 11/01/2008: 16:05:20
That cover photo is amazing! How in HADES can she hold that fiddle that way and actually play?
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
graham - Posted - 11/02/2008: 16:03:11
Thanks Jen for the link. Amazon is good source as they provide good service to Canada and where possible source from Canada thereby enabling more efficicenet shipping.
Yes, that cover picture would be a challenging playing stance!
graham
ladymuse - Posted - 11/03/2008: 01:55:17
Graham - I am glad that helped!!!
BJ
Heck! (though I think the way she is holding it is photographer's poetic license - (like look behind you over the shoulder, schveetie - hold the fiddle up )
but more than that, I want the shirt/costume!)
Graham - you mentioned Brahms's Hungarian Dances - (and liszt is cool too!)
AND! I have a new tenant moving in when there is a vacant room, and he is blooded Hungarian from Hungary - (grew up there) and is bringing his music!!!
Very into Hungarian composers - He played the clarinet
This should be interesting..... Banjo, fiddle, and clarinet - well, old time hungarian dance?
jen!
bj - Posted - 11/03/2008: 05:23:41
quote:
Heck! (though I think the way she is holding it is photographer's poetic license - (like look behind you over the shoulder, schveetie - hold the fiddle up )
but more than that, I want the shirt/costume!)
superdave2112 - Posted - 11/03/2008: 07:25:35
Graham,
I have the Gypsy book Jen is talking about. It's really cool. CD is great too, but be warned. SHe is really good, and not playing slow on it, to ease the learning. She's on the super fast, super good side.
I give it nine of ten thumbs up, just the same!
Hey, did anyone post this kid 's video yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfikdB4E54w
He's ten. I know, I know. Little do gooder.
Always most sincerely yours,
David Loudenback
superdave2112 - Posted - 11/03/2008: 07:29:58
quote:
Originally posted by bjquote:
Heck! (though I think the way she is holding it is photographer's poetic license - (like look behind you over the shoulder, schveetie - hold the fiddle up )
but more than that, I want the shirt/costume!)
Yeah, they could have at least gotten a model who actually KNOWS how to play the dang thing and who would have argued for realism . . . But then they wouldn't have gotten a woman with light curly hair, and light skin either. Actually I'm surprised the author didn't yell bloody murder. Not that publishers pay attention to authors, but . . . sheesh.
Too bad you're on the left coast. If you want an outfit like that I could fix you up by letting you loose in my Imelda Marcos Closet Of Vintage Clothing-- which is almost as big as the rest of my living space.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
bj - Posted - 11/03/2008: 08:41:45
quote:
She's no model, BJ, that is Mary Ann Harbar on the cover. She is REALLY good. That's her hubby on accordian, in the background.
You'd think she woulda said SOMETHING to the photographer though, don't you?
PGifford - Posted - 11/11/2008: 06:35:54
Graham originally asked:
Does anyone know of a good source for Gypsy fiddle music online? I have heard this form a few times and I once had the pleasure to hear folk fiddle music in rural Romania. It seems that, either correctly or not, Romanian folk fiddle music is sometimes referred to as Gypsy. Anyway, what I heard had beautiful ornamantation and I would like to get the sheet music for a couple of pieces just to give them a try. If I am incorrect in equating the two forms please set me straight.
First (to say the least)--- the posts indicate much confusion over what it is that you are talking about. On the one hand, they mention a Mel Bay book, which at best is not even close to what you are talking about. Etc. etc.
On the term "Gypsy" vs. "Rom": my friend Nicolae Feraru, of Chicago, originally from Bucharest, who is a virtuoso on the cimbalom (tambal) and a Gypsy, says "same thing." There is a political aspect to this that gadje (non-Gypsies) are attracted to, but most Gypsies themselves don't care what word people use.
The other point is that groups in different countries follow different hereditary occupations. Also, some are traditionally nomadic and others are sedentary. The groups who follow music as an occupation, passed from father to son, are sedentary, and sometimes don't know Romany, the language.
Dennis was making some points about Hungary, which is a different place than Romania. He was implying that somehow the "authentic" music of the true Gypsies is not the music that is played in Hungarian restaurants. But the "true" Gypsies are not professional musicians, but nomadic coppersmiths, etc., and they do "mouth music," accompanied by guitar, with singing in Romany, etc. The longstanding, sedentary Hungarian (and Slovak, Transylvanian, etc.) Gypsies that play violin, cimbalom (dulcimer), bass, viola, clarinet, play this music for paying customers of any background, as well as for their own events, like weddings and funerals. Village Gypsy musicians play for dancing, as well.
In Romania, Gypsies follow many different hereditary occupations. These include (among others): coppersmith, blacksmith, spoon carvers, potters, silversmith, flower-seller, and musician. Only a small number are nomads. Most live in neighborhoods, which are called tsiganie.
Musicians are called lautari, because the name for fiddle is "lauta." The men tend to dress in suits and the women dress in clothes indistuishable from other Romanians. They have nothing to do with the nomads. They might be hired to play for a nomad wedding, but their relationships don't extend beyond that.
The musicians in Romania who play for weddings are mostly Gypsies, but are also non-Gypsies in some parts of the country.
There are several different regional styles in Romania, which is readily apparent. I'm not sure what regional style you heard (did you say Brasov?). I'm most familiar with the area around Bucharest and also the Banat, but have heard music from the other areas. Basically, this is what they need to know (traditionally) to play at the weddings:
1. Dance tunes of various types (hora, sarba, regional dances in various rhythms).
2. Tunes and songs that are played while the guests are eating (doine, ritual songs, etc.)
In the old Communist system, a village musician who couldn't read music and could only play the above would be ranked as a "lautar." This determined his pay and where he could play (village weddings).
A musician in a city, who had learned to read music and could play a broader variety of music, could also play:
1. Tunes and songs from other regions of Romania
2. Tunes and songs from other countries and traditions (Hungary, German, Turkish, etc.)
3. Semi-classical and popular music
Anyway, Gypsy musicians playing for a Romanian wedding would play particular dance tunes. For a Gypsy wedding, they would play some of the same tunes, plus more of the "lautar" horas (hora lautareasca), plus drinking and love songs . The style is different.
I'll put some links to things (some of which I videotaped) to explain:
Here is music I taped at a party in a town in southern Romania (I was the only non-Gypsy there) ten years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Je_w0M5wC0
(this is a cantec de dragoste, or "love song")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUqkaNkLxqk
(same people, playing an instrumental version of a ballad, formerly song at weddings)
At a lautari wedding in Bucharest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nu1uKkE3rU
(a hora lautareasca; any Romanian would recognize this as "Gypsy")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HiPUrTI2sQ
(same wedding, but outside the apartment before the ceremony; also a hora lautareasca)
Some restaurant music in Bucharest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amQkuDPJZ2E
(the violinist's name, at least the one he uses now,
is Marian Cleante, and he appears in some other YouTube videos, with trick fiddling, etc.)
This solo combines Romanian and Serbian tunes.
This was taped on the day of the weekly "bursa," where musicians came to the restaurant for a couple of hours and people interested in hiring them for weddings would come and talk to them --- now it's been made obsolete by cellphones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFnvntCQRuU
At the Casa Doina Restaurant
There are lots more YouTube videos, though most of the current Romanian Gypsy music (much of which includes solid-body violins) is called "manele," a kind of pan-Balkan ethno-pop. If you search on "lautareasca" or "lautareasca veche," you will find lots----a lot of the younger urban musicians are putting their own videos on YouTube.
ladymuse - Posted - 12/05/2008: 23:32:21
Helpful yes! How amazing, also. that the colloquial name of "gypsy music" if one thinks of it, doesn't do justice to the whole plethora of styles within that lumped together genre -
(like "celtic")
However, I am curious what we, who hear from afar - bits and pieces, ~Hear~ that would render music as Gypsy?
I tend to think of wild sensuous violin with outrageous ornamentation - whether it is fast or slow - the music sobs - as it were - or it's like listening to liquid fire - with LOTS of Rubato - aside from Liszt, Brahms, Strauss, Bartok, Erkel, Kodaly,etc.,and the whole "borrowed from the folksong/dances" crew, I realize I am not familiar with enough of the real stuff to get tunes from it -
(whereas the classical guys at least put it in a recognizable melody time signature, and developed ideas within the framework of the form they were working with -
(which ~folk music~ incorporated into a classical piece, probably leaves a lot to be desired! or only bears a good but token resemblence.
That indeed was fascinating! - And again - what would we, the fairly uninformed, in maybe broad strokes, "HEAR" that would identify to us - of "that's gypsy/gypsyish music"?
jen!
Edited by - ladymuse on 12/05/2008 23:35:32
PGifford - Posted - 12/08/2008: 08:48:12
OK, Jen, I’ll try to comment on what you’re wondering about----what’s “Gypsy”-style?
I think what happened is that in the violin world, or “classical” world, the popularity of Hungarian Gypsy music in the latter part of the 19th century influenced a lot of musicians and compositions: Brahms Hungarian Dances, Sarasate “Zigeunerweisen,” etc. etc.
The rubato style certainly was at its core. It originally, no doubt, was part of the style of Jewish ensembles from Bohemia in the 17th century. The Gypsies in Hungary adapted that style and instrumentation in the 18th century, and popularized it greatly in the next century.
Basically the earliest distinctive elements were a leader (primas), playing by ear, much rubato, possibly vibrato, glissandos, etc., accompanied by a second, or “contra” violin (kontras), playing rhythmic double stops, cimbalom (dulcimer), playing harmony/countermelodies/improvisation, and a bass (or cello). This was the Jewish ensemble as it was adapted by the Gypsies.
They played for the local aristocracy at banquets, so were under “classical” (or German) influences early on, and they played a lot for recruiting soldiers in villages. From this came the dance called the czardas. There was a trend for some to play more classical music, and they learned popular, salon pieces, etc. Others stuck more to village music.
It became a big part of Hungarian identity in the 19th century. Popular music included slow songs (hallgatok), songs in czardas rhythm, songs from operettas, and also influences from Austria, etc. They played all of this.
The instrumentation increased. The kontra violin went to viola. A second violin, playing parallel harmony in sixths and thirds was added. A cello, also improvising an obligato or parallel harmony part, was added, as was a clarinet, which improvised obligato and melody parts. The basic ensemble was lead violin, kontra viola, cimbalom, and bass, but extra violins and the other instruments could be added. Every instrument had a role.
Ensembles include, in their repertoires, these Hungarian popular songs, Viennese waltzes, German tunes, operetta hits, show tunes, international hits (Beatles/Sinatra/Elvis, etc.), salon music, classical adaptations, and more.
Here are some YouTube videos that illustrate some of these things I mentioned:
Lajos Boross and ensemble at a Budapest restaurant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2bisIbrzVc
Gypsy wedding in Slovakia (Slovakia used to be part of Hungary)---notice the slowing and speeding up, the instruments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF5H...ture=related
Csardas being played at a contemporary Hungarian wedding by Gypsy violinist with changed instrumentation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kegJ...ture=related
Village ensemble from a Hungarian-speaking area in Transylvania (Romania) (1960s) accompanying dancing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wkc...ture=related
Funeral procession for Sandor Jaroka Jr., in Budapest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRXP...ture=related
Sandor Deki Lakatos and His Orchestra (larger, famous ensemble in formal setting):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmhE...ture=related
Descendants of Gypsy musicians who came to the U.S. in the 1885-1914 period still play the music. Here is Tony Ballog and Alex Udvary, from Chicago and Cleveland:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmhE...ture=related
Paul Gifford
PGifford - Posted - 12/08/2008: 11:36:05
Just to continue a YouTube tour of Gypsy violin playing…
What little I know of Russian Gypsy violin playing comes from reading, from recordings, and nothing firsthand. I heard some solo violin playing in a hotel in Mogilev, Belarus, and also violin and bayan (button accordion) going from table to table in Minsk, Belarus. The musicians were probably Jewish. But in any case, they went from table to table, accompanying the patrons, who sang romances to their accompaniment. In this way, they were very similar to Hungarian or Romanian Gypsy musicians at restaurants.
I know that Gypsy choruses were popular in the 19th century, and they performed at restaurants. The Russian church banned instrumental music in the ?18th century, so there isn’t much in the way of traditional instrumental music---it’s mostly vocal/choral. In the 19th century, the guitar became popular, introduced from genteel European society to the Russian elite. Gypsy musicians adopted it to accompany singing.
Romanian Gypsy musicians then became popular at upper-class restaurants in the late 19th century and early 20th centuries. They played instrumental versions of Russian songs, romances, as well as Romanian music, and accompanied dancers and singers. After 1917, they went to play at “White Russian” nightclubs in Paris, Berlin, and New York. Evidently some Russian Gypsy musicians stayed behind and kept up the instrumental style to some extent.
Here’s what I found on YouTube:
There are many songs with guitar (often 7-string) accompaniment. Very little violin.
The beginning of this video by pop singer Alla Pugacheva includes a Tsarist-era Gypsy choir:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW9MeCxZcq4
Here is a recording by Gypsy singer Vladimir Poliakoff, from the White Russian cafes of Paris:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtUEAGv8ido
There are Gypsy theatre groups, such as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RWSWHP64Hg (Barynya)
Paul Gifford
PGifford - Posted - 12/08/2008: 12:20:11
When you south from Hungary into Croatia and Serbia, you encounter more and more Turkish influences and gradually leave the Central European violin range. Nevertheless, Gypsies in Serbia and Croatia are noted violin players.
In Croatia, there are Gypsy tambura (tamburitza) orchestras with violins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jOE...ture=related
In the city of Novi Sad, Hungarian Gypsy-style orchestras exist, as here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVgj...ture=related
Here is a well-known Serbian Gypsy tambura group, Orkestar Luludji, led by a violinist who sings in Romany:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyzs...ture=related
There is plenty of use of violins in the current style of wedding music in Serbia:
Here is a pretty hot electric player:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DE1ENNIJQA
Another one at a wedding (using all kinds of tricks):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1PO...ture=related
This one, Boban Voz, outdoes the previous one in tricks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDpOS9IiBCY&NR=1
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/08/2008: 20:00:53
quote:
Originally posted by woodwiz
Try this for starters, a cliche, maybe, but still stunning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZt...ture=related
He's one of my favorite fiddlers. Plays a Peter Guarnieri, and comes from a long line of Gypsy violin players. Plays and endorses a $700 carbon fiber bow (Artium), BTW.
Michael R
www.kcstrings.com
"Together, we create"
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/08/2008: 20:03:25
quote:
Originally posted by ladymuse
Graham - I am glad that helped!!!
BJ
Heck! (though I think the way she is holding it is photographer's poetic license - (like look behind you over the shoulder, schveetie - hold the fiddle up )
but more than that, I want the shirt/costume!)
Graham - you mentioned Brahms's Hungarian Dances - (and liszt is cool too!)
AND! I have a new tenant moving in when there is a vacant room, and he is blooded Hungarian from Hungary - (grew up there) and is bringing his music!!!
Very into Hungarian composers - He played the clarinet
This should be interesting..... Banjo, fiddle, and clarinet - well, old time hungarian dance?
jen!
PGifford - Posted - 12/15/2008: 12:40:17
In my earlier posts, I posted the URLs of some video clips I took in Romania and put on YouTube. This time I’ve carefully looked at a lot of Romanian Gypsy fiddling video clips on YouTube. I’ll try to do a survey of Gypsy fiddle music from that country (and Moldova) here. I’ve tried to pick out a sampling of videos which show different regional styles, rural and urban.
Actually, few of the fiddlers in Maramures, in the mountainous North, seem to be ethnically Gypsy, but here’s an example or two or the music there (women play an open-strung guitar, called zongora):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taNDevfEpnk
The rest of the musicians in these clips are Gypsy musicians.
The vioara gu goarna (violin with horn), a sort of Strohviol, is popular in northwestern Transylvania. Here is a group from the town of Salonta, Bihor county:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkmE...ture=related
Same group accompanying Gypsies dancing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JyPV4Vbtcw
Group from probably northern Transylvania:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xPZ...ture=related
Another group, from Sopor, Transylvania:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylqxInBW64w
Hungarian-speaking Gypsies in Transylvania play styles of music which have strongly influenced non-Gypsies in Hungary since the 1970s to play this music. Here are some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm06...ture=related
Csango wedding procession in southern Moldavia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xauF...ture=related
Here is Tonica, playing the Banat style (Western Romania) at a festival, along with keyboards and soprano sax:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq61...ture=related
The late Efta Botoca, from the same region, playing a dance tune, De doi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jam-d2lTREw
Ion Dragoi, from southern Moldavia, playing Moldavian dance tunes with a Bucharest group in the 1980s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg3g...ture=related
Village group from Gorj, in southeastern Romania:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IwL...ture=related
In Moldova, which was part of the U.S.S.R. from 1940, the government-sponsored ensembles are still strong. Here is Nicolae Botgros, leader of the best-known one, Lautarii, of Chisinau, playing a Gypsy song, in a TV performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqO_06GCc88
Gypsy (lautareasca) music from the general area around Bucharest:
Ion Albesteanu (well-known singer and fiddler) accompanied by cobza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_KwDPou4pE
The internationally well-known group Tarafs des Haidouks, from the village of Clejan, with Nicolae Neacsu singing an old ballad about a bandit-hero, Corbea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aM6...ture=related
Then, from the same region, but in a more urban style:
Early 1970s TV videos of Bucharest muzica lautareasca, with larger orchestras, accompanying singers singing drinking songs:
[singer Gabi Lunca]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14a3...ture=related
[singer Faramita Lambru]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYiA...ture=related
[singer Romica Puceanu] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl1rkKqdck8
The style is now called “muzica lautareasca veche” (“old fiddler’s music”). They play at weddings. Here are some recent videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAwMQoRj6FA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luPC...ture=related
Romanian musicians are using YouTube heavily as advertising (they depend on weddings for their income). Currently, the electric violin is obviously popular, and here are some examples:
Transylvanian group:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO-x...ture=related
Since 1990, the hot Gypsy style, “manele,” (from the Bucharest region) uses more electric instruments, has songs with blatantly sexist lyrics, glorifying the pursuit of sex, money, and flash (Italian clothes and cellphones), and is very popular at Gypsy and working-class weddings. Here are examples of playing by its leading violin-playing exponents:
Ninel de la Braila:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_KQyAk9-n4
Daniel Chinezu (“Daniel the Chinese guy”)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awQDRvPFE2Q
John Timpany - Posted - 12/18/2008: 08:59:06
As early as 1000 AD but more acceptable is the date of 15-1600, the Northern Indian villages were being ransacked by invaders, probably by the Mongolians.
These villagers and tribes, in particular the Sati (a fine warrior tribe) began to pack their belongings into carts & migrate away from the danger zone. Some went South and got incorporated into safer communities while others went Northerly.
Some continued North, passing the Mediteranean on the left and ended up in France, Germany & Britain having come through Romania.
Other groups travelled West along the South bank of the Med, passing through Egypt then Spain and North into Europe that way.
Initially, and especially the Northerly migrating peoples, claimed they were pilgrims, and were instantly given alms, but this hospitality eventually wore thin as the migration stream persisted.
Being essentially itinerant they began making simple things & selling them like clothes pegs. They also turned their hands to claiming insight into the future and having dark powers to curse to earn a crust, but one of their longer and more plausible ways of earning while on the move was through entertainment.
Through entertainment they found that people would look forward to them visiting rather than treat them as parasites.
Their language was completely different from ours with essentially different roots, and even though they learnt the rudimentary language of the country they tended to settle in, the natives found them difficult to understand.
When they were asked where they came from, some said Romania. So they got called Romanies.
Others said Egypt, So they got called Gyptians - Gypsies.
The word Rom/Roma was incorporated into their language.
In Romany, Rom means 'man' or 'woman' and their language is called Romanes.
Rye means gentleman, and here is a big clue to origin - their word for tea is Chao.
Not too far removed from the Indian word Chai.
From the 1500s the Roma have had a tough time of it, and still do, being treated as outcasts and considered unfit for society, so they were and are largely reclusive.
By being a group slightly out of the mainstream orbit of life has allowed them to develope and maintain an individual culture, and despite the fact that TV and radio permeated into their lives have pretty much managed to continue just being themselves.
Like all cultures and groups of people, there is some absorbtion and dissipation that went on through the places they passed through and sometimes stayed in.
British Gypsies (if there really is such a persistent group, and it does appear so)are different in their musical styles from Spanish Gypsies and they are just as different from Hungarian, though through all runs a theme.
Their means of transport in the early days, some 500 years ago was with a hand cart if they were lucky enough to own one, and onto this was piled all their possessions including a tent. These tents were made by bending long poles (Hazel often) which were cut on site into high hoops, then the coverings were thrown over. The inner coverings were of materials that would keep them warm and the outer were to keep them dry - initially these would have been skin, then sailcloth & tarpaulins.
There are many pictures around of these being sited in Kentish fields where they would gather seasonally for hop picking.
As they became more organised, and although they are essentially travellers there is a strong organisation and hierarchy, they spent more time acquiring trades such as carpentry, and the wagons came into being - Vardos and Burtons.
They cultivated their own decorative art form much like the canal boat owners and they cultivated their ways of entertaining themselves through story telling, music and song.
The Romany artistic culture is one of the few in Europe and the developed countries that continues to be living and developing in a world swamped & dominated by media, and it owes that to the fact that they are oblidged to keep themselves to themselves.
I was travelling down to Southampton Studios with a fellow musician to do some work one day when he put on a tape for us to listen to.
The hardest part of being a traditional English musician and singer was finding original material, but here I found I was listening to the most astonishing songs which I had never heard before. They were of the fairy tale magic as ancient as Britains oldest folk songs but as different as chalk is to cheese.
They were put together by a chap called Fred Rooke who had translated Romany stories and turned them into song.
I immediately wrote to Fred and he kindly sent me many tapes to listen to. I was overwhelmed by the diversity.
I began writing my own songs based around these stories, and now, 30 years on, I am still researching this wealth of rich and vibrant mythology and legend, and still writing songs from it.
Through their history, Romanies have been survivors through neccessity, since they don't fit into 9-5, and their poaching culture is not just expert and sophisticated it is extremely amusing how they trick and beguile both game and gamekeepers. Thievery came into their survival skills package but the price for being caught was for them higher than for the natives - not just in terms of punishment but also in terms of restriction of movement. They are travellers.
It is alledged that when caught theiving they would not just admit to being thieves, but cite it as being the reason they should be let off. It was their duty to be thieves.
Their defense rested on a well seasoned story of how at Christs crucifixion, four nails were placed by the cross. One for each hand and foot. They claimed that a Gypsy tried to save our Lord by stealing the nails, but got caught and dropped three of them trying to get away.
They hoped that only three nails would stay the execution, but in the end the Romans improvised with one nail short.
After this they alledge that God promised that a Gypsies had a right to take what they needed, but no more.
Their case rests Your Honour.
Their mythology and legend is steeped in mysticism and has naturally affected their beliefs and altered their lives in ways that our society would deem incredulous, so it's understandable I think that we don't see much of them.
We do see shiney caravans and piles of scrap car parts on the roadside sometimes, but these aren't the ways of a Roma.
All that a true Rom leaves behind are footprints.
When we toured around Devon & Cornwall, and sometimes up in the Dales or Penines, we would come across a barrell top with a thin slip of smoke curling from a short stack, perhaps a lurcher running around and a rye sitting on the steps smoking a pipe.
It was a pretty picture, but if I tried to speak to him, the replies were short and somewhat dismissive. Next morning it was gone.
We would see them up at Appleby too, where each June they hold a horse fair, but although I have a deep interest in them, I have never managed to earn enough trust for them to open up to me and give me a glimpse of their lives.
Others have, so I am happy leave it to them to show me what they have discovered.
On the internet now, is a variety of different sites from a variety of different styles of Roma, and anyone taking an interest can only be for the good of what is really en endangered culture.
Their dog, the lurcher, is a now an accepted breed in it's own right, but was initially bred by Roms from a cross between (mostly) a greyhound or whippet and a retriever, with the intention that it would carry the two distinctive traits of each.ie. fast on its feet and bring home the kill.
There are many theories as the the cross, since it is now so big it look like a wolfhound, but the original purpose was for poaching.
I wrote a song many years ago that is still popular around our clubs about a Romany king called Abbey Boswell.
The story goes that he had a lurcher that was so fast that it couldn't hear Abbey whistle, and that the rabbits got to know of this dog, and wouldn't even bother to try to run away.
The story goes on to describe how Abbey's heart nearly broke when it died, so im memory he used the skin to make some leather leggings.
Eventually Abbey got another lurcher, and one day while out hunting, the dog was sent to catch the prey but it was far too slow.
In frustration, the leggings broke loose and chased and caught the rabbit.
So, this was so, Abbey said that it was so.
It was Abbey Boswells lurcher, and Abbey ought to know.
Good luck to all your Gypsy fiddlers.
Fidla - Posted - 12/19/2008: 05:48:06
quote:
Originally posted by dlight
So who''s smarter?? You or the stupid fiddle??
graham - Posted - 01/18/2009: 09:21:57
It's been a while since I checked here. The exchange of dialogue and the wealth of information is astounding. Having initially asked a simple question that did not fully illustrate my curiosity, I have been fortunate to have had great contribution to the exploration of the world of 'gypsy' music. The insight into both the music and culture is an education and should be recommended reading for any fiddler with even the slightest interest in this folk fiddling genre. I am fascinated by the comprehensive contributions by PGifford and the historical links to modern day Britain by John Timpany. There is fodder here for a good book. Thank you all.
Now, if we had some basic melodies in notation that we could share.......
Henry George - Posted - 01/23/2009: 15:57:14
Thanks for all this information. I've been interested in this music for awhile, some tunes I play are from' Mel Bays Gypsy Violin'. Before I knew of any publications I transcribed many tunes. I just uploaded a photo of one of them, a Romanian tune, The Chase, as played by Martin Lass. Can you see it? I think It's got a few mistakes I need to correct but it would be handy to have a recording because it's hard to write all the inflections in, like the gradual sliding tremolo from Bb to C natural. The tempo is fast with incessant guitar rhythm....n,v,n,v, etc. From the book I learned tips like the 'gypsy trill' which is quit different from the standard trill.
