alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/24/2020:  23:33:53

I setup a Jamkazam session called "FHO tune swap" for Wednesday, starting at 8pm Eastern time. If anyone is interested in trying this out.

You need to setup a Jamkazam account, download the app, setup your computer, mic/headphones. It's free and not too difficult... to get useable results for a swap. (jamming is another issue, but might work for some).

Then look for sessions... one called "FHO tune swap" - I have it set to by join by approval, to limit it a bit; but not yet sure how I accept, if that will be a hassle. Might just change it to open, no approval.

FWIW, I was on a session with a concertina player in Brooklyn, Piano in Tennessee, and a Henry Fiddler in Australia (name seems familiar). Jam, well no... but interesting none the less.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/24/2020 23:40:47

buckhenry - Posted - 03/25/2020:  00:41:10

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Henry Fiddler in Australia (name seems familiar). 

Yeah George, it was me..... it kicked on after you left, and I had good jams in other sessions.

I'm just using my built-in computer mic and head  phones, will update my gear later.  

EDIT: George had to leave because he had to take bread out of the oven..

Actually, the date says .. Saturday March 28 11.00 am Australia, so that maybe Friday 8.pm eastern time...?

Edited by - buckhenry on 03/25/2020 00:54:04

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/25/2020:  02:27:11

Thanks Henry, for pointing out the wrong date on the schedule... I think I have it fixed.

If not I still plan on having the session open then.

FWIW - Henry told me about it when he showed up in another session; with nice piano player from France, and another from It think UK... the type of music we were playing it actually didn't seem to bad.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/25/2020:  04:37:36

Was the concertina player named Jody?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/25/2020:  05:34:45

I think his name was Joe. He said he mostly plays OT tunes, and goes to Clifftop.

You gonna join in?

I got it working fairly well so far. Even got video to work, repurposing an old iphone 4

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/25/2020:  09:54:33

That was probably Jody - I played a bunch with him at Clifftop and somehow I doubt there are many OT concertina players. I'll see if I have time to get the app up and running on my computer after my busy day (Wednesday is a full one).

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/25/2020:  13:07:43

Cool good to hear, I downloaded this to try and play with some of my friends, may join you.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/25/2020:  14:58:38

Hope to see some of you there.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/25/2020:  15:04:18

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

That was probably Jody - I played a bunch with him at Clifftop and somehow I doubt there are many OT concertina players. I'll see if I have time to get the app up and running on my computer after my busy day (Wednesday is a full one).

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Yep not a lot of OT concertina players. His account name was I think Joe Consumer... is it possible people make up fake account names??? If you get the app set up and running you can find him and set up a get together... he seems really eager to play OT on Jamkazam.

Our attempt Angelina Baker (NY-AK) timing was hilarious.

buckhenry - Posted - 03/25/2020:  15:25:06

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

is it possible people make up fake account names??? 

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I believe I saw quite a few, mine is half fake, but I think I should use my real name so people that know me can find me.  

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/25/2020:  16:55:52

should be open now

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/25/2020:  19:12:47

I'm unable to get past the "I am not a robot" verification. That little window just freezes up every time. I've shot an hour and now it's close to bedtime, so I guess I'll try again some other day.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/25/2020:  20:11:42

Reporting on the experiment. Some of it worked much better than expected.

I originally played with a fiddler from Cape Cod... it worked fairly well as tune swap idea... I could second an it sounded okay... he had some cool tunes. Henry had some interesting tunes; he and I played together on stuff that worked... okay like Summertime. then we were joined was mostly about 4-6 of us, and a bit more songs, one rhythm player and folks doing fills and breaks worked okay.  Jody the concertina player showed up, sounded quite clear. Henry said he was just using the computer mic... it worked okay, but would break up if too many folks were on. (of course Australia might been issue) - A few others in the states had really good sound. Others had a bit of jitter noise. I'm sure setup makes difference.

Some folks tried joining in, had trouble connecting in; not sure if was their set up.

I made it open to anyone to join... randomly, so that can be a little issue; as folks just start noodling (you can mute them). It seems like the sound is better if just 3-4 folks. Again that might be individual settings.

Might try and setup another FHO session if folks are interested. I'll also be trying to test it local level, in town... see how that works.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/25/2020:  20:16:25

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

I'm unable to get past the "I am not a robot" verification. That little window just freezes up every time. I've shot an hour and now it's close to bedtime, so I guess I'll try again some other day.

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I had that issue... I couldn't select how many photo squares had a bus... but I somehow bypassed it and got an account anyway.

Are you setting it up through the web browser... or from the app itself, maybe try it the other way.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/26/2020:  03:56:57

I’ll try again today. And I am going to encourage a few locals to join too.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/26/2020:  04:30:27

Linux not supported

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/26/2020:  06:45:52

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Linux not supported

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They have a Linux download icon, but it just gives error. I was pretty sure I used it on Linux a few years ago? Might work under wine or wine HQ?

I personally prefer Linux. Actually what worked better for on Linux was JackTrip. It's just a peer to peer connection for music, that also works for OSX and Windows as well. It requires 1. using Jack2 and making settings in that (not too difficult); and 2. opening a command window to launch JackTrip and assign a host, server and client (they have to type in the host IP). No login, or website... just assign connections.  It's not that complicated but can intimidate folks.

I just was setting up the Jamkazam with Windows and OSX, as friends want me to try help with that first... seems more user friendly... and has some other features.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/26/2020 06:50:25

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/26/2020:  07:03:10

How did it go? Would love to see the video if there is one.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/26/2020:  07:40:48

I gave info above... there was no recoding done. Some of us set up video stream (it's optional). It mostly came thru fine; but the suggestion was to turn it off to maybe help the jitter some folks had. It might have made a difference. for some folks, but seemed like most of the audio issues were probably simply the audio set up, and of course connection and distance.

Did you try it with your friends yet?

I'd like to hear feedback and suggestions of what folks have tried, solutions, improvements.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/26/2020 07:42:36

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 03/26/2020:  07:44:29

I haven't tried it yet.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/27/2020:  02:59:29

Tested a local connection... banjo player lives  maybe 10 to 15 miles away. definitely better as far as latency... doable lag. He is not tech savvy at all and is not sure if he is on wifi or ethernet. He was just using his computer mic, but sound was fairly good despite that... no jitter or breakup. I think the network added about 10ms. His setup added maybe 20ms. Folks that have a good audio audio setup, low latency should get even better results.

Figured out how to record the session... granted just a rough run, we were a bit distracted, he had a bit difficult time adjusting to playing in headphones and getting his mix set right... so that added  a bit to lack of tightness.  Interesting, found out that it saves each persons track as individual file, and one mix track... which might be useful.

Sail Away Ladies tele-jam

 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/27/2020:  03:22:35

Good work. Thanks for sharing real life stuff like this.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/27/2020:  03:49:45

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

I'm unable to get past the "I am not a robot" verification. That little window just freezes up every time. I've shot an hour and now it's close to bedtime, so I guess I'll try again some other day.

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I walked a few friends through the process and they were having that problem as well... but seemed to have better luck by signing up for an account from the web page, through the browser; rather than through the downloaded app sign-up button.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/27/2020 03:56:34

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/27/2020:  03:55:48

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Good work. Thanks for sharing real life stuff like this.

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I was looking at some of the app... and it might be possible to use JackTrip (Linux) to connect to other friends using Jamkazam; I think would set up as the server, and via jamkazam looks like they can connect directly to an IP address (your server). Just not sure how you would need to set up the port assignments? Looks possible.

buckhenry - Posted - 03/28/2020:  17:06:39

I updated my gear with 'Focusrite audio interface' and installed ASIO4All, but jamkazam doesn't want to operate on it so I still have WDM which is supposed to be a problematic driver for my gear. And if take the frame size below 10ms there is no sound.....

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/29/2020:  00:33:34

Dont think iv'e got a fast enough connection, (or brain) for any of the "Live" stuff. i get under 1ms latency locally in Reaper with my set up, (a couple of old pci M-Audio Delta cards). But my upload speed is less than 1MB/s, and down load varies between 8-9 MB/s. Could probably cope with something like Ninjam, which i think staggers the playback/record and syncs it with a metronome or something. But it all gets a bit technical for me, and detracts from me trying to make music.

Great stuff for Tech savvy musicians though...

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/29/2020:  03:33:11

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

I updated my gear with 'Focusrite audio interface' and installed ASIO4All, but jamkazam doesn't want to operate on it so I still have WDM which is supposed to be a problematic driver for my gear. And if take the frame size below 10ms there is no sound.....

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I was using ASIO4all - had heard there were issues with some devices. I had to mess with it with a few trial and errors. Mine would not show the latency on the test thing, just grayed out, the the Var thing showed green... but (as someone advised) just hit next and it seemed fine. Once in a session showed latency of about 15ms... but all the other settings were good. FWIW the WDM worked fine as well... not  whole lot of difference.

From what I understand the ASIO4all is just a wrapper for WDM; as opposed to a real ASIO driver.

I recalled that my old interface came with an official ASIO driver... I had to go to the Lexicon site to download it... and so now I can use the actual ASIO setting, and it improved a bit (my interface uses USB 1.1 on, so that seems to limit me to about 10ms)

I believe the Focusrite has an actual ASIO driver... so check their site.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/29/2020:  04:33:11

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Dont think iv'e got a fast enough connection, (or brain) for any of the "Live" stuff. i get under 1ms latency locally in Reaper with my set up, (a couple of old pci M-Audio Delta cards). But my upload speed is less than 1MB/s, and down load varies between 8-9 MB/s. Could probably cope with something like Ninjam, which i think staggers the playback/record and syncs it with a metronome or something. But it all gets a bit technical for me, and detracts from me trying to make music.



Great stuff for Tech savvy musicians though...

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Jamkazam isn't really that tech savvy. But like any new computer stuff or DAW stuff... some folks will have some problems with their setup... can take a bit to work out.  Of course to get a great setup (like your 1ms latency) that can take a lot of tweaking and playing around.

Not sure if speeds are that critical to make it useful for some things. The down/up rate isn't that critical, it's not so much bandwidth as how it goes thru for latency. They were doing some of this back 20 years ago.

Even then, you can use it sort of like those others... that is not quite real time. Jamkazam has a metronome as well.. and you can upload recorded tracks for others to play along.

One thing I found interesting, that wasn't too bad was like those others, comping, improvising. I did that with some other folks halfway round the world. One person lays down and holds down the beat, and progression... the other person(s) adds fills and breaks. Henry and I did that a little. Bass player from Malaysia played awesome grooves. Some of the more jazzy stuff... since not exactly melody, note just needs to fit with the chord in some way... Sure great practice for improvising and exploring.

Not that it's going to be solution for tight together band... but interesting none the less. Certainly good enough to work on stuff with others in real time, arrangements, compositions. Of course with DAWs you can just send each other files. I think Reaper has something built in to the full version... including each client has ability to access and share to a master (all the tracks). It might be using Net Jack??

 

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/29/2020:  04:56:44

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

i get under 1ms latency locally in Reaper with my set up, (a couple of old pci M-Audio Delta cards).

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I was going to mention... they also make some external interfaces like  Jamblaster, and Jamlink that plug your hardware (mics, midi, headphones/speaker) into, but it connects directly to your router via ethernet port. I think you use your computer, or phone just to change settings. I'm pretty sure  Jamlink works with Linux, as it uses Jacktrip.

But even with out the interface, since you use Linux and Reaper...  Jacktrip might be an option for you tp connect to others. You already use Jack so it shouldn't be difficult. nor problem routing it thru Reaper... just use the Qjack connect, or some other patching GUI, like Patchage or Carla.

The only techy thing would need to do is:

1. download Jacktrip (it should be in the repos)...

2. open a terminal window type   [ jacktrip  ]

3. then type [ jacktrip -s ]

If successful, the window will state so, it is now just waiting for clients to hook to you. That last command makes you the server  (Ctl -C to exit).

The other person(s) is the client...  does the same, but needs to have same jack settings (sample rate and buffer) as you; and needs to type c instead of s followed by your IP, such as:   jacktrip -c 171.64.197.121 (or whatever the IP is, google "my IP"). Audio I/O should be connected between the two. (the only other issue might be the router firewall, you need to allow access to the port, pretty easy).

OSX and Windows can use Jacktrip as well... but they need to download and use Jack. From there it's almost same simple instructions.

If you want to set up a trial let me know, I already have Jacktrip.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/29/2020:  05:25:17

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

But my upload speed is less than 1MB/s, and down load varies between 8-9 MB/s.

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Shoot, I didn't clarify that bandwidth thing.

Single or stereo channel of audio doesn't need a lot of bandwidth. My Lexicon Omega uses USB 1.1 which has a speed of only 1.5 Mbps max, not sure if I'm even sending/receiving that much data between interface and computer. Yet I can get down to about 10.6ms latency back and forth to my computer DAW. (5.3ms each way). Might be able to tweak it lower. Much of that latency is just the inherent any USB bus buffers add, not so much the amount of actual data transited.

Even with folks using built in on board sound and WDM (much slower) - it was still workable results to a degree if close. Most of the latency folks experience is just the added latency of the network, distance and hops. (each hop adds a buffer process to exchange data, more latency).

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/29/2020 05:27:49

DougD - Posted - 03/29/2020:  05:42:11

Pete, I used to use a computer with an M audio Delta card and it was great - I did a lot of work with it. The card itself is very good, and being right on the PCI bus avoids a lot of problems. I started with a card from Lexicon and it never worked right.
I now have a Presonus Firepod and a Yamaha two channel interface, both Firewire, which is better than USB, but I don't do much with either of them anymore.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/29/2020:  07:09:40

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

But my upload speed is less than 1MB/s, and down load varies between 8-9 MB/s.

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Shoot, I didn't clarify that bandwidth thing.

Single or stereo channel of audio doesn't need a lot of bandwidth. My Lexicon Omega uses USB 1.1 which has a speed of only 1.5 Mbps max, not sure if I'm even sending/receiving that much data between interface and computer. Yet I can get down to about 10.6ms latency back and forth to my computer DAW. (5.3ms each way). Might be able to tweak it lower. Much of that latency is just the inherent any USB bus buffers add, not so much the amount of actual data transited.

Even with folks using built in on board sound and WDM (much slower) - it was still workable results to a degree if close. Most of the latency folks experience is just the added latency of the network, distance and hops. (each hop adds a buffer process to exchange data, more latency).

 

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I'll take a look at Jacktrip and get back to you