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DrtyDon - Posted - 09/30/2008: 20:22:43
What does it mean to play in the key of "A", or "D"? I was at the local Old Time Fiddlers session lately and was watcing the guys jam. Someone said they were playing in the key of "A". All I could make out of it was it sure sounded cool. I want to join in one day but have a long way to go.
Good Fiddling
God Bless
Don
transplant - Posted - 09/30/2008: 21:00:48
I think they might have been pulling your leg. Possibly they were playing in the key of 2. 
One major feature of A is that your second finger should note next to your third finger, similarly on both the A and E strings. There'll be a gap between the first finger's notes and that wandering second finger. Seriously. There's other stuff going on, but that might start you in the right direction.
Third finger on the E, and the open A bowed together should give you a cool clean sound, and in A that's where tunes like to come home to roost, that, or the open A and E together. (and other stuff, again.. 
)
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kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
bj - Posted - 09/30/2008: 21:24:11
Were they crosstuning?
If so, AEAE is the key of A crosstuning.
ADAE is the key of D crosstuning
And learning the tunes in the right tuning sure makes it easier when you're jamming, otherwise watching other people's fingers is no help at all.
And yes, crosstuning does sound wonderful, since there is a lot of sympathetic ringing in the strings not being played. Much fuller sound.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
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Edited by - bj on 09/30/2008 21:26:29
FiddleJammer - Posted - 09/30/2008: 21:26:30
In the key of A, the do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do starts and ends on an A.
In the key of D, on D.
And, so on.
It's good to know, because that affects where the sharps or flats are in a scale.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
M-D - Posted - 09/30/2008: 21:45:54
Learn your scales, Don. Then you can easily play in those keys. And just keep at it. One day you will play with them.
Myself, I play in the key of L some times . . . 'cause that's what it sounds like.
I heard a funny one tonight. The boys are up town playing, as usual, and a fellow came over and listened to them. So they light into a something, and when it's done he asks what key that was in. They said "A". He says he usually plays it in D, then asks, "Is that key of A faster than D?"
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M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
lrhamp - Posted - 10/01/2008: 03:57:16
A good way to get familiar with the keys on the fiddle is to play it like a mandolin in standard tuning. Just play the mandolin chords on the fiddle real low while listening to a tune. If the tune is played in the key of A then 99% of the time you will start with an A chord. Then you can branch out to cross tuning.
lrhamp
coelhoe - Posted - 10/01/2008: 06:38:02
When I first got involved with old fiddlers in '66, a lot of the really older players would refer to the keys not by letter name but rather by the number of sharps in the key.
No sharps=key of C
One sharp=key of G
Two sharps= key of D
Three sharps=Key of A
Four sharps=key of E
Five sharps=key of B
One flat=key of F
It seemed to be a generational thing, that is, common among players who learned to play around WW1. Perhaps it had something to do with grammar school music.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
Edited by - coelhoe on 10/01/2008 11:27:43
Sam Shazaam - Posted - 10/01/2008: 06:43:24
When playing backup in the Key of G, it usually means that the tune will begin and end with a G chord. Chords usually progress in 1-4-5 pattern (G-C-D) or some variation of this. So if you know the key you can usually stumble around and find a way to play backup. I stumble a lot.
Certain notes in the scale are sharpened or flattened depending on the key. Find a copy of the Circle of Fifths to consult on which notes these are for whatever key. It will also be on the musical notation if you have that.
As with all rules there are exceptions.
TimK - Posted - 10/01/2008: 07:02:17
[quote]Originally posted by M-D
Learn your scales, Don.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G Major scale: start on the open G string:
G whole step A whole step B half step C (move to open D string)
whole step D whole step E whole step F# half step G
Once you have this pattern down move to the open D string and repete the pattern. You are now playing in the key of D.
Move again to the open A string and repete the pattern for the key of A.
When you get these three keys down you are well on your way to playing most old time tunes in the first position.
Good luck. 
TImK
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Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.
brya31 - Posted - 10/01/2008: 07:55:19
Don I highly recommend you do as others have suggested and learn those scales
M-D - Posted - 10/01/2008: 08:03:25
Dennis's mentioning of how keys were referred to by those old-timers reminds me of how they did/do it up here. No mention of keys, per se. Tunes are played in chords, such as A-chord, D-chord, etc.
And Sam mentioned the Circle of Fifths. The way Dennnis showed those sharps/flats above, follows the order of the Circle, which not coincidentally follows the order of tuning on the fiddle. The one/first string is G, and the key of G has one sharp. The two/second string is D, and the key of D has two sharps. The three/third string is A, and the key of A has three sharps. Etc., etc.
Don, even if you dont have a book showing you scales, doing as Tim suggested will show you the way. Let your ear tell you what sounds right, and what doesn't. That ultimately is what you must rely upon, anyway.
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Rene - Posted - 10/01/2008: 10:57:09
Don't give up Don....learn your scales. PM if you need help. All of this knowledge is obtainable.
I'm working on the point of being able to tell what key they are playing in by listening....haven't gotten that far yet.
Good website that may have some scales is musicmoose.org
Practing til the cows come home
bsed - Posted - 10/01/2008: 15:11:48
So what's the difference between scale and key?
Scale is a rule. The rule is you have a bunch of notes that are related to each other by relative sharpness or flatness. If you play those notes in order in an octave (8 notes played in a scale from low to high or vice versa), you easily see the relationships between each of those notes.
Since we're talking about a major scale here, the so called half steps and whole steps all fall in the same locations of any major scale. Whole step (W) & half step (H) are the symbols I'll use:
A B C# D E F G A is one octave of an A major scale.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 are the degrees (or notes) of the scale.
H H H=the two half steps
In this or any major scale, all notes are separated by a Whole step except for 2 Half steps,
and you'll find these Half steps between the 3rd & 4th and between the 7th & 8th degrees of the scale.
Key is how you apply the Rule of the scale to a piece of music. If they're playing in the key of A, they're using that rule so they know what notes and chords to play.
And yes, Virginia, some keys are faster than others!
Just call me Dwight.
Edited by - bsed on 10/01/2008 15:14:56
bsed - Posted - 10/01/2008: 15:17:40
quote:
Originally posted by bsed
And yes, Virginia, some keys are faster than others!
No they're not! I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist using Martin's joke because I loved it so much. I'm gonna have to remember that one for my next jam, Martin!
Just call me Dwight.
Edited by - bsed on 10/01/2008 15:18:52
M-D - Posted - 10/01/2008: 18:01:46
Faster to play, perhaps, but. . . . We all cracked up when the bass-player in that group came over and told us the story. He said no one laughed at the question, but only smiled and answered. . . but they've been laughing about it ever since. 
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
woodwiz - Posted - 10/02/2008: 06:10:47
quote:
Originally posted by bsed
A B C# D E F G A is one octave of an A major scale.
I hate to be the one to say it, but you forgot the F# and G#....
Michael R
www.kcstrings.com"Together, we create"
"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford
M-D - Posted - 10/02/2008: 14:54:59
Fear not, Bruce. It's one octave of something! 
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M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
bsed - Posted - 10/02/2008: 16:27:06
I should change my quote to something like "I am So not responsible for anything I talk about that smacks of music theory".
Just call me Dwight.
Edited by - bsed on 10/02/2008 16:27:42
M-D - Posted - 10/02/2008: 17:03:43
Obviously, what you really meant, Bruce, was that it was one octave of A minor! Only you got discombobulated and put that ONE sharp thingy in there. Right?
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Sue B. - Posted - 10/04/2008: 17:51:16
Once you figure out how to play the one-octave scales for the common keys of fiddle tunes, it can be really helpful to learn the two-octave scales, at least as many steps of same as are available in first position. The pattern of whole & half-steps stays the same, but the placement of fingers changes from string to string as you go higher. For xx. a two-octave G scale in fingerings goes openG-1-sharp(or high)2-3, openD-1-sharp2-3, openA-1-low2-3, openE-1-low2. Sue
fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/09/2008: 23:25:10
quote:
Originally posted by DrtyDon
What does it mean to play in the key of "A", or "D"? I was at the local Old Time Fiddlers session lately and was watcing the guys jam. Someone said they were playing in the key of "A". All I could make out of it was it sure sounded cool. I want to join in one day but have a long way to go.
Good Fiddling
God Bless
Don
A lot of what the other fiddlers are saying is good and true,
but I think they have missed something simple that will help you.
If a song is in the key of A (and it isn't "modal") it tends to want to
end on an A note and an A chord, and there will often be more A chords than anything else, and usually the first chord in the song is an A chord. When you play the chord with the same name as the name of the key, it feels like that would be an okay way to end the song. If you end on one of the other chords, there is this feeling
of it being unfinished, like something was left hanging.
Occasionally someone builds a tune to end that way,
but it doesn't happen very often in American tunes.
Also, if a tune is in the key of A, you could tape down the A note
on an electronic organ while that tune is playing, and it would
sound pretty good in a bagpipey sort of way.
On fiddle, the way the strings are tuned GDAE, each pair of strings played open and played together
forms an important part of a chord.
GD is part of a G chord, DA is part of a D chord, and AE is part
of the A chord.
Because of this, it's no accident that a lot of fiddle tunes are in the keys of G, D, and A.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
JessicaRose - Posted - 10/15/2008: 11:07:08
DirtyDon, I recommend you pick up a copy of Mountain Music for Everyone: Get Started" by the Abbot Family. I talked about it on a new thread I just posted. I am finding it to be very useful for learning to play in different keys on the fiddle.
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/forum/...OPIC_ID=5389
Best wishes, Jessica
Edited by - JessicaRose on 10/15/2008 15:46:22
Aodhan - Posted - 10/17/2008: 08:43:57
quote:
Originally posted by DrtyDon
What does it mean to play in the key of "A", or "D"? I was at the local Old Time Fiddlers session lately and was watcing the guys jam. Someone said they were playing in the key of "A". All I could make out of it was it sure sounded cool. I want to join in one day but have a long way to go.
If you go to an Irish seisun (Pronounced session), 90% of the tunes will be in the key of D.
John
bsed - Posted - 10/17/2008: 18:27:19
quote:
Originally posted by Aodhan
quote:
Originally posted by DrtyDon
What does it mean to play in the key of "A", or "D"? I was at the local Old Time Fiddlers session lately and was watcing the guys jam. Someone said they were playing in the key of "A". All I could make out of it was it sure sounded cool. I want to join in one day but have a long way to go.
If you go to an Irish seisun (Pronounced session), 90% of the tunes will be in the key of D.
John
John--You ever read the book "Paddy On the Hard Court" about an American BB coach from New Mexico State who goes to Ireland to coach a team in their professional league? He also happens to be an aspiring Irish fiddler. It's a good read.
Anyhow, he finds some sessions over there and discovers that the Irish really like playing American OT tunes. Did you find any of that yourself?Just call me Dwight.
2005fiddler - Posted - 10/18/2008: 17:45:19
To play in the key of A, your chord progression is A chord which is the one, D chord which is the four chord, then the E chord which is the five,
a good rule of thumb so to speak, is to take your thumb call it A , then your pointer finger call it B, middle finger is C#, ring finger is D, then little finger is E, one two three four five, you need to study as someone above has shown how many sharps and flats a key has if your playing in the sharp scales of flat scales.
Lets look at the key of G, the 1,2,3,4,5 is G,A,B,C,D, the chord progression will be the 1,4,5 which is G,C,D.
Look at the key of C the 1,2,3,4,5 (there are no sharps in C) C,D,E,F,G the chord progression is C,F,G,
each chord is made up of individual notes, the C chords notes are C E G, these three make of the chord, the chord of F, are F A C, the chord of G is G B D, any combination of 2 of these notes make up a double stop on your fiddle, let's go back to your original question on the key of A, the key of A is made up of A C# E, the next chord is D, D F# A , the key of E is next E G# B, any 2 of these make up a double stop like C# and E is an A double stop, D and A is a D double stop, or A and E is an A, and F# and A is a D, here is a break down of some of the common chords you'll in time be playing in,
G= GCD
A= ADE
B= BEF#
C= CFG
D= DGA
study the notes that make up each chord and you'll be on your way.
good luck
TM
coelhoe - Posted - 10/20/2008: 11:28:21
Let me just add a couple of points here. All of the above is based on the concepts of scales and chords. There are patterns involved. It is not just a matter of memorization.
A major chord is made up of the first, third and fifth elements of a major scale. While these are typically played with the first element (often called the "root) as the lowest note in pitch, it does not have to be this way. You can have these chords, or the interval pieces of the chords in several different arrangements (inversions), each of which has its own tonal characteristics.
For example, a C major chord is made up of C E G, but this could also be E G C, E C G, G E C, G C E, C G E. For the fiddler, any two of these chords can provide either back-up notes or harmony for the melody.
To determine where the sharps or (one) flats are start with the key of C and go up a fifth: C D E F G. The key of G has one sharp F#. You can continue this pattern by going up a fifth each time and being sure that you have kept the previous sharps and same major scale pattern of whole and half steps, that is half steps between elements three and four, and between elements seven and eight. All the rest are whole steps. It is the desire to keep this pattern as you change keys that makes the use of sharps or flats necessary.
C= no sharps, G=1#, D=2#, A=3#, E=4#, B=5#, F=1b, for the most common keys.
The minor chord pattern has one difference: first, third, fifth but the third is flatted creating the minor tonality: 1 3b 5.
All other chords are created by adding other scale tones to, or manipulating, these major and minor patterns.
While a I-IV-V-I pattern is quite common, a I-V-I pattern is even more so, and a I-VIm-IV-V-I pattern, with a minor 6th chord (VIm), is the most common pattern basis for tunes with a minor tonality.
There are other common patterns that can then be applied to any key.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
FiddleJammer - Posted - 10/20/2008: 14:54:54
Dennis,
"a minor 6th chord (VIm)"... So, what chord is that in the key of C, for example? Starting on the sixth tone up from C, ie. 1 3b 5 = B Db F?
Thanks.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
coelhoe - Posted - 10/20/2008: 15:40:26
In the key of C this would be I=C, IV=F VIm=Am V= G .
The 6th tone is the relative minor and is based on the notes of the relative major scale: CDEFG /ABCDEFGA / BC.
So the notes of the A minor chord are A C E.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
FiddleJammer - Posted - 10/20/2008: 18:31:07
Aha, thanks. I was confused by the '6th".
I think in my piano lessons when I was much younger, I learned to determine the relative minor by counting 3 half-steps downwards to A. LIkewise, 3 half steps down from G = Em, from A = F#m, from D = Bm. And the like.
Thanks!
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
