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DougD - Posted - 09/29/2008: 10:34:32
I didn't want to interfere with your special club thread, so I put this here where it might belong. I know I'm one of those uppity intruders, but I couldn't resist trying to explain the musical modes one more time in a simple way. This is especially for Carol, since she plays the piano. So LISTEN UP - I'm only going to say this once:
1. Sit down at your keyboard. Play a C scale, using (of course) only the white keys. This is the Ionian mode - see you know one already. Also any melody, when transposed to C, that can be played on just the white keys, is diatonic. If you need black keys its chromatic, or modal. Of course it could actually be in any key, like D, but if you can play it in C just on the white keys its diatonic.
2. Now move up to A, and play a scale, again using just the white keys. This is the Aeolian mode, better known as the relative minor. You already know that one too.
3. Now play another scale, starting on G, again just using the white keys. This is the Mixolydian mode. Try comparing it to the normal G scale, and you'll notice that the F is natural, instead of a sharp - its lowered a half step. Since G has only one sharp, this mode differs the least from the normal major scale. The F natural is why the F chord fits these tunes instead of D or D7. Try playing "Red Haired Boy" in G using just the white keys and you should hear what I mean.
4. Next play a scale with just the white keys starting on D. This is the Dorian mode, which, compared to the D major scale, has a flatted (minor) third in addition to the lowered seventh - where the F# and C# would be. This is an even more lonesome, bluesy sound than Mixolydian - try playing the first part of "Wayfaring Stranger" on just the white keys.
These are by far the four most common modes, although if you want, you can try the scales starting on F (Lydian) and E (Phyrigian), again using just the white keys. The scale starting on B (Locrian) is pretty useless (except maybe in jazz) because the fifth interval is not perfect - its an awkward sounding "tritone." If you play "Three Blind Mice" using each of these scales you can hear the sound of each one.
That's about it, except that some tunes that are commonly called "modal" are really just based on "gapped" scales that don't have all eight notes - usually pentatonic, using 1,3,4,5, and 7. Dorian or Aeolian would give this sound.
Also, you can see that as the major scales beginning on each of these notes use more and more sharps or flats (in the case of Lydian) the modal scale using just the white keys will have an increasingly different sound. And you can easily see where the half and whole steps are from the position of the black keys.
This is not rocket science. If it were musicians wouldn't be able to understand it.
scrubber - Posted - 09/29/2008: 11:04:13
I appreciate your tact, DougD and applaud your not wanting to interfere with the WDHC Club thread!
There is a long-standing rift between those who want to analyze what they do, musically, and those who want to make their music intuitively. My preference is analytical, but I think the intuitive 'school' has its strengths -- musical analysis (e.g., identifying modes, keys, structure, et al) usually follows musical practice. While it may be cumbersome (sometimes) for musicians of conflicting viewpoints to play together, this 'hashing out' helps the music evolve and keeps it vital...
bj - Posted - 09/29/2008: 11:22:32
Well, I sure stirred up a ruckus there, and didn't mean to. But most of the A modal stuff I'm playing is the moody and sad stuff, and most people hear that in a similar way to hearing a minor key, and is why I pointed out my tune list at the top of that A modal list thread. They all have that spooky haunted sound.
And I'm one of the "intuitive" people . . . though I do understand more music theory than I perhaps let on, I hate to think about it. I'm much happier just hearing it and using it without thinking about it at all, and do my best to push it off to the side for some future date . . .
And having said that, I can't wait to get to a keyboard to jam all the modes into my head . . . through my ears, the way nature intended. :-)
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
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Edited by - bj on 09/29/2008 11:26:21
Blu - Posted - 09/29/2008: 11:35:21
Thank you Doug for your clear and concise explanation, and for ending Percy's club and her reign as club president.
I am contemplating starting a WWCPSARLAB (We Who Can't Play Saint Anne's Reel Like Aly Bain) Club.
Hopefully Doug relishes a challenge, and will in nine paragraphs render my club obsolete.
“Many a good crop has been lost foolin’ with a fiddle.” John Hartford
FiddleJammer - Posted - 09/29/2008: 14:48:10
I tried to construct a 'circle of 5ths' representation on this awhile back. It came out rectangular, but all the better. See the photos on my home page. Click on them to see them. Look at them. Think about them. Let me know if there's any corrections or comments.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
dlight - Posted - 09/30/2008: 07:22:24
Thanks, Doug. I was a music teacher (both vocal and instrumental) for some 35 years, and I never got that modal stuff straight! 
In my formative years, I was one of those "intuitive" musicians that Scrubber referred to. As my musical world grew, so did my interest in learning more and more about it. In 7 or 8 years, I'll be taking a long-delayed music degree at some Canadian university near where I'm living at that time, and no doubt a familiarity with modes will come in handy. I know a bit about Gregorian chant, which is modal in structure. Fiddlers seem obsessed with modes, as well, for reasons that still elude me! Oh well, I'm copying your modal lesson into my hard drive for future reference!
So who''s smarter?? You or the stupid fiddle??
DrtyDon - Posted - 10/01/2008: 19:29:16
Well I can't find any darn white keys on my fiddle. Better just fling the dang thing in the closet and go back to just wishing .........
Good Fiddling
God Bless
Don
transplant - Posted - 10/02/2008: 08:25:24
quote:
Originally posted by Blu
I am contemplating starting a WWCPSARLAB (We Who Can't Play Saint Anne's Reel Like Aly Bain) Club.
I can play Saint Anne's just like Aly Bain, if by that you mean never the same way twice. I do have my lingering suspicions that he does it that way mostly on purpose, though.
Don, just keep on playing, and the white keys will show up on your fingerboard in the form of shiny spots where your fingers like to land.
________________________________________________
kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/09/2008: 23:56:59
quote:
Originally posted by scrubber
I appreciate your tact, DougD and applaud your not wanting to interfere with the WDHC Club thread!
There is a long-standing rift between those who want to analyze what they do, musically, and those who want to make their music intuitively. My preference is analytical, but I think the intuitive 'school' has its strengths -- musical analysis (e.g., identifying modes, keys, structure, et al) usually follows musical practice. While it may be cumbersome (sometimes) for musicians of conflicting viewpoints to play together, this 'hashing out' helps the music evolve and keeps it vital...
You could call them "schools", but just to confuse things further,
you could call them "analytical mode" and "intuitive mode".
Of course, that's a mode of a different color!
I can flip back and forth between the two, which is a little odd, it seems- most people are stuck in one or the tuther, most of the time.
The problem is I can't really DECIDE which mode to be in,
so it's more of an analytical MOOD and an intuitive MOOD.
Of the two, I'd say the intuitive mode, mood, approach or school
is a lot more fun, and the analytical "whatever" is a lot more WORK!!
That may account for the latter's unpopularity around here,
since most take up the fiddle for the fun of it!
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
bj - Posted - 10/10/2008: 09:17:48
quote:
The problem is I can't really DECIDE which mode to be in,
so it's more of an analytical MOOD and an intuitive MOOD.
Of the two, I'd say the intuitive mode, mood, approach or school
is a lot more fun, and the analytical "whatever" is a lot more WORK!!
That may account for the latter's unpopularity around here,
since most take up the fiddle for the fun of it!
Well, I'm a straddler too, though I usually lean much more toward the intuitive, but I always seem to have a foot over the fence, if not a whole leg.
The simple fact that I can't escape is that if you want to get better at this you sometimes NEED to analyze stuff to take the next step up. If you're content playing simple tunes all your life, then you might not care, but if you do want to get better at this infernal instrument, then a certain amount of analysis, and yes, theory, is needed. Luckily for me I learned enough music theory from my hated guitar teacher back when I was a kid to suffice for most stuff (and I'm amazed as much of it stuck as it did!) and don't have to delve too far. But if there comes a point where I have to learn some theory in order to get better? No doubt I'll dive into the hoary dreaded theory camp for awhile.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.comMy inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/11/2008: 18:30:33
quote:
Originally posted by bj
quote:
The problem is I can't really DECIDE which mode to be in,
so it's more of an analytical MOOD and an intuitive MOOD.
Of the two, I'd say the intuitive mode, mood, approach or school
is a lot more fun, and the analytical "whatever" is a lot more WORK!!
That may account for the latter's unpopularity around here,
since most take up the fiddle for the fun of it!
Well, I'm a straddler too, though I usually lean much more toward the intuitive, but I always seem to have a foot over the fence, if not a whole leg.
The simple fact that I can't escape is that if you want to get better at this you sometimes NEED to analyze stuff to take the next step up. If you're content playing simple tunes all your life, then you might not care, but if you do want to get better at this infernal instrument, then a certain amount of analysis, and yes, theory, is needed. Luckily for me I learned enough music theory from my hated guitar teacher back when I was a kid to suffice for most stuff (and I'm amazed as much of it stuck as it did!) and don't have to delve too far. But if there comes a point where I have to learn some theory in order to get better? No doubt I'll dive into the hoary dreaded theory camp for awhile.
I basically agree with you except:
I don't think of the fiddle as infernal, just difficult!
And while I didn't hate my classical guitar teacher,
now that you mention it, he was probably the one that taught me
the theory I've needed to get by, along with conveying emotion by phrasing, the concept of tonal sweet spots, and the need for a gentle approach to getting good tone out of a vibrating string- which transfers surprisingly well to fiddle bowing.
In spite of not continuing with classical guitar, I think I got my money's worth!
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/18/2008: 20:07:28
I hosted a jam earlier today, and someone asked for Kitchen Girl.
The A part is in Mixolydian mode and the B part in Dorian mode,
and I made the mistake of mentioning that fact on the way to
saying you should use an A in the A part and an Am in the B part.
What an outbreak of foolishness and poking fun that provoked!
I think I've learned my lesson.
I guess a gentleman is someone who knows about modes,
and doesn't talk about them!
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
Percy - Posted - 10/19/2008: 15:29:27
quote:
...if you want to get better at this you sometimes NEED to analyze stuff to take the next step up. If you're content playing simple tunes all your life, then you might not care, but if you do want to get better at this infernal instrument, then a certain amount of analysis, and yes, theory, is needed.
I agree that theory can be helpful to some, but I'm also pretty certain there were (and are) some great old-time mountain fiddlers who could play circles around everyone here -- fiddlers who didn't have a clue about theory and simply didn't care. They learned by listening... and by playing.
All I'm saying (not trying to pick a fight) is that it's not quite fair to imply that if we don't learn theory all we'll ever be able to play is the simple stuff. We'll just be learning it in our own way.
The music came first. Then the study of it.
bj - Posted - 10/19/2008: 16:08:04
quote:
I agree that theory can be helpful to some, but I'm also pretty certain there were (and are) some great old-time mountain fiddlers who could play circles around everyone here -- fiddlers who didn't have a clue about theory and simply didn't care. They learned by listening... and by playing.
All I'm saying (not trying to pick a fight) is that it's not quite fair to imply that if we don't learn theory all we'll ever be able to play is the simple stuff. We'll just be learning it in our own way
I agree that, to some degree the music came first. But whenever people play together, there's a vocabulary that develops around what is being done. And yes, there are probably some oldtime fiddlers who never communcated with anyone, and just played as they wished and produced what they heard in their head. But part of the tradition was passing down what was known to others. Another part involved playing with others.I doubt highly that they never discussed technique or theory in any way, shape or form, though it's totally possible that they used their own regional vocabulary (as M-D pointed out somewhere) to discuss this stuff.
If you want to play with others, it'll be interesting to see if you can accomplish that without ever discussing theory. And I, for one, love playing with others and for others, and get great enjoyment out of doing so.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.comMy inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
John Gent - Posted - 10/19/2008: 17:19:09
quote:
Originally posted by bj
...
If you want to play with others, it'll be interesting to see if you can accomplish that without ever discussing theory. And I, for one, love playing with others and for others, and get great enjoyment out of doing so.
I (we) do it all the time. In fact more so than not. I (we) just like to have a lot of fun. I'm sure there are a few of the folk that would like to bring up that stuff, but we usually start the next tune before they get a chance
- John
Eugene, Oregon, USA
bj - Posted - 10/19/2008: 18:29:26
Hmm. And, when you're at a jam, does anyone ever mention what key you're playing in, so the banjo players can be in the right tuning? If so, then you've discussed the theory behind the music.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Edited by - bj on 10/19/2008 18:29:48
John Gent - Posted - 10/19/2008: 19:39:20
quote:
Originally posted by bj
... what key you're playing in, ...
That's not theory, that's a fact.
- John
Eugene, Oregon, USA
Percy - Posted - 10/19/2008: 19:57:18
I guess we'll just have to agree to never agree on this stuff.
I did play in a band for about 8 years with a banjo player. When we brought in new music -- we told him the key. "It's in A," or "it's in E minor." That's as deep as it went. He never asked for more information and neither did the rest of us. And then we'd play the tune.
Of course, understanding keys is basic music theory, and if that's what you're referring to, then I will agree that this knowledge is very helpful when playing with others, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to know much more than that to play complex pieces and to play them well -- and to play them with others.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/20/2008: 09:54:03
quote:
Originally posted by bj
quote:
I agree that theory can be helpful to some, but I'm also pretty certain there were (and are) some great old-time mountain fiddlers who could play circles around everyone here -- fiddlers who didn't have a clue about theory and simply didn't care. They learned by listening... and by playing.
All I'm saying (not trying to pick a fight) is that it's not quite fair to imply that if we don't learn theory all we'll ever be able to play is the simple stuff. We'll just be learning it in our own way
I agree that, to some degree the music came first. But whenever people play together, there's a vocabulary that develops around what is being done. And yes, there are probably some oldtime fiddlers who never communcated with anyone, and just played as they wished and produced what they heard in their head. But part of the tradition was passing down what was known to others. Another part involved playing with others.I doubt highly that they never discussed technique or theory in any way, shape or form, though it's totally possible that they used their own regional vocabulary (as M-D pointed out somewhere) to discuss this stuff.
If you want to play with others, it'll be interesting to see if you can accomplish that without ever discussing theory. And I, for one, love playing with others and for others, and get great enjoyment out of doing so.
In learning a language, there are words that EVERYBODY
knows, and then there are specialized vocabularies, jargons
that only specialists know.
Among musicians, especially FOLK musicians, EVERYBODY
talks about keys... technically it may be theory, but it's part of the popular vocabulary.
But I'm now convinced that as far as your average folk musician
goes, if you start talking about modes, you might as well be speaking
Greek to them.... well, hey, in fact, you ARE speaking Greek.
And they don't accept it, as I found out Saturday! It's a jargon.
Because Old Time music is melody oriented, if you can get the notes
by ear, or even by reading music, knowing what mode the tune is in
isn't really helping you in any practical way.... it's academic.
However, if you are talking to people who are improvising within a scale, like jazz, blues, and rock fiddlers or guitarists, knowing different scales
and modes becomes a lot more useful, since it defines what notes you can or can't play, but even there, you have people
who just do it, without the theory.
I use theory a lot more when I'm playing electric lead guitar than
when I'm playing Old Time fiddle.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
bj - Posted - 10/20/2008: 10:05:50
Um, then what do you tell the banjo players if you're going to do a modal tune? If you remember my "playing with banjos" discussion, you'll know that the banjo thread is one of the threads that seemed to kick off this whole controversy.
And as far as "popular vocabulary" goes, the word "modal" seems to be part of it, at least in the jam circles I've been in recently, and it has to do with banjo tuning. Re a word like "mixolydian" . . . it's never come up.
Yes, there are different degrees of knowledge. And different degrees to how useful it is to different people. And, as I've stated more than once, your goals as a player figure into how deep into theory you need to go. If you don't play with others, you might not ever need any of it. But those who want to play with others will eventually need to dip their toe into the music theory jargon pool. And those who teach others should have a pretty good working knowledge of theory, even if they teach by ear.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
scrubber - Posted - 10/20/2008: 11:11:15
I'd like to restate that theory follows practice. It describes and defines what has already been.
Many fiddlers play like they feel and 'don't give a hoot' about theory -- that's part of fiddling theory!! It's why fiddlin' doesn't always fit the 'rules' established for classical music. Still, one can observe certain characteristics in any style of play, and these observations can be described (despite the unwillingness of the players) as a performance theory.
What one can/should do with these observations,however, is subject to discretion... Players may or may not choose to benefit from what has gone before... (Apparently, we don't all learn from experience
).
Edited by - scrubber on 10/20/2008 11:25:07
Percy - Posted - 10/20/2008: 16:52:00
So then you're telling me those 14 years I played as a professional musician, and these ten years I've been music director for my church have been a figment of my imagination? Because for the most part, all I know of theories is keys? And that if I want to go further, and play with others (aside from a 5-piece rock group, a 12-piece church group, or a 6-piece jam group) I will have to learn about modes?
Perhaps I'm just some kind of theory savant...
fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/20/2008: 19:36:10
quote:
Originally posted by bj
Um, then what do you tell the banjo players if you're going to do a modal tune? If you remember my "playing with banjos" discussion, you'll know that the banjo thread is one of the threads that seemed to kick off this whole controversy.
And as far as "popular vocabulary" goes, the word "modal" seems to be part of it, at least in the jam circles I've been in recently, and it has to do with banjo tuning. Re a word like "mixolydian" . . . it's never come up.
Yes, there are different degrees of knowledge. And different degrees to how useful it is to different people. And, as I've stated more than once, your goals as a player figure into how deep into theory you need to go. If you don't play with others, you might not ever need any of it. But those who want to play with others will eventually need to dip their toe into the music theory jargon pool. And those who teach others should have a pretty good working knowledge of theory, even if they teach by ear.
Yes, excellent points.
I'll start with modal... I've had that thought...
SOMEHOW, somebody with some theory knowledge got that
one rolling... because "modal" tunes in Old Time are always
Dorian or Mixolydian... never full classical minor (Aeolian).
Calling them "minor" would be wrong.
But "modal" is ambiguous... but it's partly because some tunes
are too. In fact, the tune that tempted me to use the dread word
mixolydian at the jam was "Kitchen Girl" which is mixolydian in the A part and Dorian in the B part.
The pertinent info for the jam (mainly the guitarists) was that it needs an A major for backup in the A part, and an A minor for the backup in the B part.
What to do about the banjos? Perhaps they could be taught to
ask the backup guitarist which A chord their using for the backup-
A major or A minor... and that if it's A major they stay in G major tuning capoed up, but if it's A minor, they need to switch to "Sawmill" tuning.... except on Kitchen Girl, they're gonna have to pick one,
and muddle through on the part that doesn't fit!
Or the guitarists need to learn to ask the banjo player calling the tune-
"Are you in "Sawmill" or major tuning?"
and know that if the banjo picker is in sawmill, they back up with an A minor chord.
To those of us who know modes, it sounds clumsy, but
I think it's more realistic, since "Sawmill" is already part of the banjo players vocabulary.
In effect, "Sawmill" would become the working term for Dorian mode.
The dreaded word "Mixolydian" (why did such a simple mode in principle have to have such a forbidding sounding name???
)
could be called... "major with a flat 7th"... but that smacks a lot of music theory right there! "Rowrbazzle!!!!" as Pogo's friend Albert the Alligator used to say!!!!
Maybe just call it the Old Joe Clark scale? No, that won't work...
Old Joe Clark is ambiguous on the 7th in some version...
how about the Red Haired Boy scale???
One of the reasons I switched sides, is that as someone who has
studied languages, I have run into the fact that Americans as a whole have a strong bias against learning foreign languages,
and using specialized jargons seems to trigger that bias.
And it's a strong bias.
And I've learned that to fight it is spitting in the wind, swimming upstream, rolling stones uphill, etc.
You wear yourself out, with little to no results.
And Saturday at the jam, I SAW how strong it was among folkies
and Old Timey types and realized that it's pointless to fight it.
One factor is that to some extent, Old Time and and folk musicians tend to be refugees from theory anyway- they chose those genres
because it would be easy, and they wouldn't have to deal with theory.
And so they tend to be doubly resistant to this.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/20/2008: 20:11:23
quote:
Originally posted by Percy
So then you're telling me those 14 years I played as a professional musician, and these ten years I've been music director for my church have been a figment of my imagination? Because for the most part, all I know of theories is keys? And that if I want to go further, and play with others (aside from a 5-piece rock group, a 12-piece church group, or a 6-piece jam group) I will have to learn about modes?
Perhaps I'm just some kind of theory savant...
Something like that, anyway.
Different brain wiring? (It happens- I'm excessively well wired
for verbal skills, but very poorly wired for math in a society
that values being able to count the beans and the bottom line!
So I KNOW about that!)
It's really common for choir directors
to have degrees in music with a choral emphasis, and you'd better
believe they get theory.
That doesn't mean they necessarily DO any better at the job then you do... whatever advantages are probably outweighed by the fact that
they are tempted to use their music theory jargon on people that
just aren't about to learn any of it. (Not only that, they are so bound by classical SATB (Sopano Alto Tenor Bass) concepts that they
are continually trying to foist music on congregations that's too high for them because it was written to be comfortable for sopranos... and sopranos are a minority!)
You have probably developed workarounds for theory concepts
and somehow are able to communicate with the people in your groups. I wish I could watch you do it, because I think I'd learn something! In fact, you might even hold the key to our dilemma here!
Problem is, you might not be able to communicate it to those of us
who are speaking the "music theory" language.
I think you are actually "wired" more like the people you are trying to lead... so you speak their language, and can actually lead them more effectively.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
bj - Posted - 10/20/2008: 20:37:14
quote:
So then you're telling me those 14 years I played as a professional musician, and these ten years I've been music director for my church have been a figment of my imagination? Because for the most part, all I know of theories is keys? And that if I want to go further, and play with others (aside from a 5-piece rock group, a 12-piece church group, or a 6-piece jam group) I will have to learn about modes?
Perhaps I'm just some kind of theory savant..
We've been talking about fiddles, playing fiddle, learning fiddle, playing fiddle with others (including banjos!), music theory as it pertains to learning and teaching fiddle . . . in reading your response, I'm getting the feeling you're reading a whole lot more into what I'm saying than I put there. ;-)
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.comMy inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
John Gent - Posted - 10/20/2008: 21:01:07
quote:
Originally posted by bj
... you're reading a whole lot more into what I'm saying than I put there. ;-)
You've said this, on three occasions in this thread:
"If you're content playing simple tunes all your life, then you might not care, but if you do want to get better at this infernal instrument, then a certain amount of analysis, and yes, theory, is needed."
"If you want to play with others, it'll be interesting to see if you can accomplish that without ever discussing theory."
"But those who want to play with others will eventually need to dip their toe into the music theory jargon pool."
I disagree right down the line. You don't have to know any of that junk to know if it sounds right or not. I constantly witness some really good fiddle players that don't read music, or care about it or 'theory'. They almost instantly play tunes they've never heard before. They feel how it's suppose to look and play it that way - that's where I hope to be someday.
- John
Eugene, Oregon, USA
fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/21/2008: 04:17:53
I think some of this is VERY instrument specific.
When I watch someone else play guitar, I only very rarely can figure out what they are doing by just watching- only first position chords are a sure thing. On guitar, theory really helps me find notes.
Fiddle is different.
With folk fiddling in the 1st position, all the notes- 2 and 1/2 octaves of them- lie
right under your fingers.
Not only that, but you've only got 17 fingerings for the notes in a G major scale from low G to the B on the E string. If you add the unisons, you've got 20 fingerings.
Fingers are pretty much assigned to a specific note,
unlike on guitar, where a given note could be fingered by any finger, depending on the notes that come before and after it.
I don't know if I can still do it, but I used to be able to join in an intermediate jam,
and between watching which fingers on which strings the other fiddler(s) used,
and hearing the notes and getting them into my head, I could come up with a rough
version of what the other fiddler was playing quite quickly, say, something on the order of difficulty of Salt Creek.
And I've seldom been able to do that kind of thing on guitar.
Also, on fiddle, you know you are never (or practically never) playing more than two notes at a time. That reduces the finger possibilities even further.
I suspect that kind of tune learning was and is fairly common among fiddlers.
All the more so because in traditional folk music, tunes tend to have this family resemblance.
So guitar is easy where fiddle is hard (intonation and producing notes),
and fiddle is easy where guitar is hard (fewer note and fingering possibilites).
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 10/21/2008 12:08:51
John Gent - Posted - 10/21/2008: 06:49:11
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I think some of this is VERY instrument specific. ...
I hang out with at least two banjo players and several guitarist who 'pick up' tunes out of no where. But generally I think you're right. I think playing a fiddle is a lot like singing (once you figger out all them crazy finger/hand/arm/back/body things). It's easy (ier) to get to know what finger placements will make a good noise. Eventually these become second nature. This sort of ear/hand coordination is really impressive to me - that's what I want to do when I grow up. (if I ever do)
- John
Eugene, Oregon, USA
bj - Posted - 10/21/2008: 09:13:25
John Gent, I've also said more than once that it depends on what your goals are.
Playing in a jam circle requires at least a rudimentary knowledge of at least a bit of music theory in the form of what key a song is in. And yes, whether it's modal or not, so you don't throw the banjos off. Geez, even tuning a fiddle requires a working knowledge of what notes you're tuning to. Now, I will admit to the fact that there are a lot of ways to arrive at that knowledge, but refusing to call that knowledge what it is doesn't change what it is. And I guess I've said about all I can say on this subject. And then some.
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Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Edited by - bj on 10/21/2008 09:15:48
Aodhan - Posted - 10/21/2008: 10:56:09
quote:
Originally posted by bj
John Gent, I've also said more than once that it depends on what your goals are.
Playing in a jam circle requires at least a rudimentary knowledge of at least a bit of music theory in the form of what key a song is in. And yes, whether it's modal or not, so you don't throw the banjos off. Geez, even tuning a fiddle requires a working knowledge of what notes you're tuning to. Now, I will admit to the fact that there are a lot of ways to arrive at that knowledge, but refusing to call that knowledge what it is doesn't change what it is. And I guess I've said about all I can say on this subject. And then some.
Ah, you have to love a good forum fight. Everyone's right all the time, because the pick the minutest details to point to. Yes, you're right, if you know what notes comprise a scale, you know a bit of music theory.
But, I disagree that you have to discuss it, what mode you're in, and more of the esoterica. I've played in Irish seisuns for years (And yes, we have banjos show up all the time), and never did we discuss mode or anything like that. Pretty much it was "What key? G? Ok." and away we go. We never talked about ionian, mixolydian, or anything at all related to that.
Never stopped us from sounding good and having fun, either. ;)
John
scrubber - Posted - 10/21/2008: 11:54:05
Classical theory is very much concerned about notation because classical music is written. Music theory, however, is NOT merely notes written on a page or key signatures or identifying modes (as many here seem to believe). Indeed, simply identifying scales or keys merely scratches the surface!
There is no ONE kind of music theory applicable to all types of music! Music theories (like all other scientific theories) seek to codify what is going on when the music is playin' How this is expressed (and explained) varies with the individuals making the music, but I feel it is important to do this!. After all, why are we making music in the first place if it has no meaning??
This is my main contention with the WDHC concept -- there doesn't seem to be any reason (other than the proper execution of a series of notes) behind the performance...
Edited by - scrubber on 10/21/2008 11:55:21
fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/21/2008: 12:48:51
quote:
Originally posted by scrubber
Classical theory is very much concerned about notation because classical music is written. Music theory, however, is NOT merely notes written on a page or key signatures or identifying modes (as many here seem to believe). Indeed, simply identifying scales or keys merely scratches the surface!
There is no ONE kind of music theory applicable to all types of music! Music theories (like all other scientific theories) seek to codify what is going on when the music is playin' How this is expressed (and explained) varies with the individuals making the music, but I feel it is important to do this!. After all, why are we making music in the first place if it has no meaning??
This is my main contention with the WDHC concept -- there doesn't seem to be any reason (other than the proper execution of a series of notes) behind the performance...
Scrubber,
You have admitted to having a strong analytical side...
I do too! And as you know, I LOVE getting geeky and analytical
about modes AND bowings. But it's clear to me that most musicians DON'T- especially folk and Old Time musicians.
(From what Aodhan says, Irish musicians too...)
However, somehow in the last decade or so, I've gotten in touch
with a non-geeky side of me... and it's a real good reason for
any performance- MY EMOTIONS!
Maybe it getting into the blues about 10 years ago that did it.
Now, above and beyond the notes played, when I perform,
I'm focusing on the EMOTION the tune or song conveys.
And audiences connect with that very well.
And I'm sure there are LOTs of performers who can do this,
that don't have an IOTA of geeky analysis in them!
I do admit that in my stage patter, I do allow the geeky side of me to express itself-
I'm likely to talk about the history of the songs and tunes.
But I restrain myself from going Full-Gonzo-Geeky!
I might even mention something like "This tune is in a kind of scale that is neither happy sounding "major" or sad sounding "minor", but instead sounds mysterious." For most people the <feeling> of a mode or scale (happy, sad, mysterious) is more important than the cold, scaley details of the intervals- or the Greek names of the modes.
However, this is the Music Theory section...
with that Greek-based word "Theory" there, it should
sound a warning for all non-geeks entering this section,
that the geeks among us will feel the freedom here to be terminally geeky!
Now,
I wonder what a Phrygian or Lydian fiddle tune would sound like?
Anybody written any lately???
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
bj - Posted - 10/21/2008: 15:00:03
quote:
However, this is the Music Theory section...
with that Greek-based word "Theory" there, it should
sound a warning for all non-geeks entering this section,
that the geeks among us will feel the freedom here to be terminally geeky!
Yeah, I did find it somewhat ironic how some people felt "invaded" when those of us who recognize the value of music theory when communcating with others, and were legitimately trying to help, responded on the other thread, yet those same people who said they felt invaded did exactly that same thing here in this thread, in the THEORY section, which was started to address that dreaded theory stuff for those who weren't afraid of learning it, and that those who felt invaded didn't want to hear about in that other thread. And here they are. And it makes OTJ's comment on that thread with its comparison to a rorschach test that much more . . . interesting.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.comMy inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
John Gent - Posted - 10/21/2008: 17:44:55
quote:
Originally posted by bj
... it depends on what your goals are.
Playing in a jam circle requires at least a rudimentary knowledge of at least a bit of music theory in the form of what key a song is in. ...
All I said was that I disagree. I also don't call knowing the key 'theory', I may be wrong, but it feels more like 'fact' than 'theory'.
I play in a lot of jams these days - shoot, I even get called to do a gig now and again. Sometimes the caller will forget to mention the key (or even the tune!), but we all get along fine. It might start out kind of rough
.
The banjo players also don't seem to mind (well, they are fiddle jams so it might be different at other jams). A couple of them bring a couple of banjos all tuned up for different keys. One gal has a capo, but never uses it - and she don't care what key or type of tune. She's a really good banjoist but truly doesn't think so (humble, talented and a great gal - what a combination).
I may be wrong about the whole schmear, but I don't care. I'm having fun. THAT's what it's all about.
- John
Eugene, Oregon, USA
Percy - Posted - 10/21/2008: 18:09:52
BJ,
Let's give it a rest. You have your thoughts, I have mine. You and I are just two people who can't play well in the sandbox together. But if I can offer one word of advice... whenever you are making a statement, it's good to avoid absolutes. That's the part that got under my skin. It's fine to believe as you do -- that theory is very helpful... that most, or many banjo players need to know modes... and all of that. But it's the phrases indicating that we can't play with others, or that we can't play complex tunes, or that we can't progress with out theory... that's the stuff that gets to John and me.
So go ahead and speak for yourself, how things work for you, how you learn, how jams in your area work -- all of that is valid and can't be argued. You can argue that theory is very important stuff... but you can't declare that the rest of us can never be good musicians without it.
That's the last I'll say on the subject.
Amen.
BanjoBrad - Posted - 10/21/2008: 19:36:51
You know what? I think that should pretty well be the last word on this thread, too.
If you want to keep discussing modes and such, this is the forum to do it in. But, I feel that the subject of this particular thread should be allowed to die here. That way, maybe we can prevent this thread from dissolving into something I don't think anybody wants it to become.
Therefore: CLICK!
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Brad
"I''ll tune up my fiddle, and rosin my bow, to make myself welcome wherever I go." Tommy Jarrell - Drunken Hiccoughs
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Edited by - BanjoBrad on 10/21/2008 19:37:53
