haggis - Posted - 06/01/2019:  03:37:48

Bb must be the easiest key in which to improvise , am I correct?

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 06/01/2019:  04:54:28

Well ..... maybe maybe not ... I find both D and G easier to get around in. D and G both have one and five tones as open strings with the other two open strings as part of the scale. There also are both one and five chords in the key of D available as open pairs. That yields easy access to the relative pentatonic scales. While Bd has all four open strings as scale tones it has no open string chords. I usually play in Bd anchoring my index finger on the Bd and F tones then move laterally to the D and A strings to grab the Ed scale and doublestops then "up" a whole step to catch the F..... R/

DougD - Posted - 06/01/2019:  05:28:16

Maybe on tenor sax or trumpet, but I'm not so sure about the violin, for the reasons Richard mentioned, unless you mean its a closed scale position.
One quibble, Richard - E natural is not a scale tone in Bb.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/01/2019:  05:51:20

quote:

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Originally posted by haggis

Bb must be the easiest key in which to improvise , am I correct?

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Depends what sort of music i am playing with. Generally speaking, i like G,D and A and their relevant modes for trad stuff, G/Em C/Am and F/Dm for jazz/swing tunes, and Bb/Gm And F/Dm seem to be Good  Jazz/Swing/Vocal Keys and also good for unusual fiddle tunes. i don't really venture much sharper or flatter than that . But a lot of jazz/swing standard stuff is written out for, and performed by Bb instruments (sax clarinet etc)... Maybe the reason for your thinking?...Grappelli says in an interview with Matt Glaser that he preferred sharp keys. i assume he meant sharp of C/Am?

DougD - Posted - 06/01/2019:  06:24:52

I would agree with Grappelli that the violin works best in "sharp" keys, and not just for traditional music and jazz. In the great classical repertoire, Mozart wrote five violin concertos - two in D major, one each in G and A, and one in Bb. The Beethoven, Brahms and Tchaikovsky concertos are all in D major - just like "Soldier's Joy." Can't forget Bach - one concerto in A minor, one in E major, and the "double" concerto in D minor.

Edited by - DougD on 06/01/2019 06:31:56

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 06/01/2019:  12:28:05

When they say Bb at the local jam, I'm opening back up my case, looking for quarters, and just heading to the pop machine.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 06/01/2019:  15:00:01

Yeah Blair and Doug sorry about that I hadn't quite finished waking up yet... R/

Edited by - UsuallyPickin on 06/01/2019 15:00:27

_outofservice_ - Posted - 06/02/2019:  08:49:26

I don't know about the easiest key to improvise in, but it is a lovely, rich key that is a lot easier to play than a lot of people think. Just use your first finger capo and you've got the keys of Ab, Eb, and Bb under your fingers, easy, not to mention B and E as a bonus.

What makes it an easy key for you to improvise in?

boxbow - Posted - 06/02/2019:  18:46:26

I like Bb tunes as skill builders because the tunes seem to lay in the hand best when you give in and use your pinkie. The key is a jam buster more often than not, so I save it for the wood shed and have a lot of fun. I haven't seriously tried to come up with one that wouldn't be a jam buster. Anyway, I've been happily massacreeing "President Garfield's Hornpipe" for several years now. Also in the hopper are "The Champion Hornpipe" and "The College Hornpipe." All in Bb.

haggis - Posted - 06/03/2019:  06:10:51

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Originally posted by quartertonelow

I don't know about the easiest key to improvise in, but it is a lovely, rich key that is a lot easier to play than a lot of people think. Just use your first finger capo and you've got the keys of Ab, Eb, and Bb under your fingers, easy, not to mention B and E as a bonus.



What makes it an easy key for you to improvise in?

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"Improvise" is the operative word. It is the symmetry of both major and minor pentatonic scales over the four strings which I think lends itself to easily adding other notes to create other scales and modes ?

haggis - Posted - 06/03/2019:  11:11:11

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

quote:

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Originally posted by haggis

Bb must be the easiest key in which to improvise , am I correct?

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Depends what sort of music i am playing with. Generally speaking, i like G,D and A and their relevant modes for trad stuff, G/Em C/Am and F/Dm for jazz/swing tunes, and Bb/Gm And F/Dm seem to be Good  Jazz/Swing/Vocal Keys and also good for unusual fiddle tunes. i don't really venture much sharper or flatter than that . But a lot of jazz/swing standard stuff is written out for, and performed by Bb instruments (sax clarinet etc)... Maybe the reason for your thinking?...Grappelli says in an interview with Matt Glaser that he preferred sharp keys. i assume he meant sharp of C/Am?

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Clarinet and Sax are concert Bb then fiddle , guitar , piano etc. play along in that key, but, while we struggle with Bb the sax is reading and playing the easier C major. Sax is a transposing instrument so fiddle may think saxophonists are playing in tough keys but often, as far as they are concerned they are not.....I think? 

Edited by - haggis on 06/03/2019 11:12:32

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/03/2019:  13:13:20

quote:

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Originally posted by haggis

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

quote:

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Originally posted by haggis

Bb must be the easiest key in which to improvise , am I correct?

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Depends what sort of music i am playing with. Generally speaking, i like G,D and A and their relevant modes for trad stuff, G/Em C/Am and F/Dm for jazz/swing tunes, and Bb/Gm And F/Dm seem to be Good  Jazz/Swing/Vocal Keys and also good for unusual fiddle tunes. i don't really venture much sharper or flatter than that . But a lot of jazz/swing standard stuff is written out for, and performed by Bb instruments (sax clarinet etc)... Maybe the reason for your thinking?...Grappelli says in an interview with Matt Glaser that he preferred sharp keys. i assume he meant sharp of C/Am?

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Clarinet and Sax are concert Bb then fiddle , guitar , piano etc. play along in that key, but, while we struggle with Bb the sax is reading and playing the easier C major. Sax is a transposing instrument so fiddle may think saxophonists are playing in tough keys but often, as far as they are concerned they are not.....I think? 

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Correct....i think?

bsed - Posted - 06/17/2019:  07:27:29

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Originally posted by DougD

I would agree with Grappelli that the violin works best in "sharp" keys, and not just for traditional music and jazz. In the great classical repertoire, Mozart wrote five violin concertos - two in D major, one each in G and A, and one in Bb. The Beethoven, Brahms and Tchaikovsky concertos are all in D major - just like "Soldier's Joy." Can't forget Bach - one concerto in A minor, one in E major, and the "double" concerto in D minor.

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Could just be the 'color' the composer was going for. D maj is a pretty bright happy positive-sounding key.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 06/17/2019:  09:45:40

I also think playing in they keys of G,D, and A is easier than playing in Bb. But like everything else, the more you practice and play in Bb, the easier it gets. There are some great sounding tunes that are normally played in Bb, so practicing and playing in that key would come in handy.
I do exercises in the key of Bb and with a little extra work play tunes in Bb. I have to study the notation first because there are often more "incidental" notes in tunes for that key.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/17/2019:  12:23:35

IMO D Major is the fiddle's natural register, It's neutral symmetrical and palindromic mode of E Dorian sits right in the middle of the fingerboard, with all of the other modes surrounding it. And as an added bonus all the open strings are diatonic....So as Eb, Bb, and F (and their relative minors) are natural vocal keys, A D and G are natural fiddle keys....C and Am sit somewhere in the middle between the vocal register, and the fiddle's register.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 06/17/2019:  15:40:54

I mentioned this once before in a long ago thread, but I remember watching a PBS show where a concert violinist half jokingly remarks, "Notice that all violin concertos are in D?"

I mean, yeah, think of all those notes in open strings. I mean dig the way the physiology of the human hand (or at least of my hand) just wants to put the fingers at the proper pitches. The key of D also puts a surfeit of melodically important notes easily within reach, from the A below the low D to a full octave and three-quarters above. And of course, if you find the notes below the D a trifle difficult to reach, just tune the G string up to A...

Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 06/17/2019 15:42:54

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 06/17/2019:  20:07:51

To me, Bb is no different than D, E, or F except that I have a low octave without changing positions.  Similar to A. It may not sound the same to those who value open strings, but I simply anchor my index in 2nd position and play as if I were in A. I suppose I'm lazy, in that I like to keep all my licks with the same finger pattern. But I like the easy way out, like a capo-happy guitarist.



As far as improv, when I do that it's not any different than the other keys, other than instead of using left hand 1/2/3, I'm using 2/3/4.

Edited by - Flat_the_3rd_n7th on 06/17/2019 20:14:23

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/18/2019:  00:02:21

yep, i just shift my mode patterns up a semitone so that F Dorian is central to the fingerboard, and i have Eb, Bb and F under my fingers. Similarly i use E Phrygian as my Central Mode, (and alter/shift up accordingly), for the remaining keys....But i don't seem to go there much... Apart from playing in C or Am....

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/18/2019:  11:28:23

Just had a thought...if i tuned to the baroque A=415hz, the preferred fiddle keys (using open strings), and the seemingly preferred vocal keys would coincide.

In other words... Tune down a semitone...Maybe why the fiddle is sometimes described as an instrument near to the human voice?

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/18/2019:  13:59:21

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Just had a thought...if i tuned to the baroque A=415hz, the preferred fiddle keys (using open strings), and the seemingly preferred vocal keys would coincide.



In other words... Tune down a semitone...Maybe why the fiddle is sometimes described as an instrument near to the human voice?

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WRONG!!! i would have to tune up a semitone!!!!!!

Flat_the_3rd_n7th - Posted - 06/18/2019:  14:13:47

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

yep, i just shift my mode patterns up a semitone so that F Dorian is central to the fingerboard, and i have Eb, Bb and F under my fingers. Similarly i use E Phrygian as my Central Mode, (and alter/shift up accordingly), for the remaining keys....But i don't seem to go there much... Apart from playing in C or Am....

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I'm probably biting off too much of the onion to ask this, but--

If you shifted to 2nd pos to play in Bb, wouldn't the pattern on the D/A strings (I assume that's what you mean by central to the fingerboard) use an F Mixylodian pattern?  Then, the A/E strings would use the Dorian pattern (C, in this case)?

As an aside, I didn't know the finger patterns were conventionally named after the modes, I simply named them something that would help me remember them by, like "barre I", "barre V", "barre IV", etc.  As Arte Johnson would say, "Verrrry interesting..."  

Swing - Posted - 06/18/2019:  14:28:53

Perhaps the easiest thing to do is learn the intervals. Once you start on the root note, the intervals take you up the scale. Having said that, it is just practice until your ear and muscle memory take over.... why make it more difficult?

Play Happy

Swing

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 06/18/2019:  15:11:30

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Originally posted by Swing

Perhaps the easiest thing to do is learn the intervals. Once you start on the root note, the intervals take you up the scale. Having said that, it is just practice until your ear and muscle memory take over.... why make it more difficult?



Play Happy



Swing

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You got it, dude!  Sing the scale and play it to distraction.  Then, skip some notes as you make your way up and down.  In time, you'll instinctively know where the notes are.