AZfiddler_1996 - Posted - 09/24/2008:  14:57:26

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Chord theory is not only important for improvisation; chord theory can be used for writing twin fiddle parts, writing variations to old time tunes, backing up vocalists, writing your own songs, etc.
Many fiddlers do not understand how to play a "chord" on their instrument. It is very simple. When a guitar is playing a G chord, all they are doing is playing the notes G, B, and D at the same time. For a fiddler to play a G chord, they can play either a G, B or D or fiddle around between those three notes.
How do I know what notes are in a chord? Did you ever learn arpeggios? Arpeggios are the same things as chords. To find out what notes are in an arpeggio or "chord", simply memorize these numbers: 1, 3, 5
To find a chord, write out its scale. For example a D chord would be D, F# A:

1------2-----3 ------4------5------6------7-------1
D-----E-----F#-----G------A------B-----C#-----D

To make a minor chord, all you need to do is bring down the 3rd note a half step. For example, a Dm chord would be D, F, A instead of D, F#, A.
To make a 7th chord, you use 1, 3, 5, 7. Most 7th chords are played with the 7 brought down one half step. For example, a D7 chord would be D, F#, A, C, D. If you don't bring the 7th note down a half step, it is called a "major 7th" and sounds like elevator music. Try playing it: D, F#, A, C#, D. Like I said, most of the time the 7th note is brought down a half step, but a major 7th chord has its uses as well.

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Here is an exercise for the basic use of a scale's chords. We will use the C scale for our example.

1----2----3----4----5-----6----7----1
C----D----E----F----G----A----B----C

The 1, 4, and 5 chords are the three basic chords in a key. In the key of C, those chords would be C, F, and G.
The 1 chord is called the Tonic chord. (The Tonic chord gives a relaxed feeling, as if you were sitting in a chair.)
The 4 chord is called the Subdominant chord. (The Subdominant chord gives a feeling as if you were standing up in front of the chair.)
The 5 chord is called the Dominant chord. (The Dominant chord gives a feeling as if you were squatting: in between sitting down and standing up. In other words, it makes you want to RESOLVE this problem and sit down.)
The 2,3, and 6 chords in a song will be minor, and the 7 chord will be diminished.
The 1 chord can be substituted for the 3 and 6 chords. (C can be substituted for Em and Am.)
The 4 chord can be substituted for the 2 chord. (F can be substituted for Dm.)

The 5 chord, or the "Dominant" chord, pulls very strongly to the 1 chord. The Dominant chord is usually a 7th chord. We can use the Dominant chord as a passing chord before reaching another chord. For example, a C to a G7. What is the Dominant (5) chord of G? D. So, we can go from a C to a D7 to get to the G7. A triple wammy would be going from C, to the Dominant of the Dominant of G7: C to A7 to D7 to G7 to Am (G7 is the Dominant of C,and C can be substituted for the 6 chord which is Am).

The 4 chord, or the "Subdominant" chord can also be used the same way. You can go from a 5 chord to a Subdominant of the Subdominant. What is the Subdominant in the key of C? F. What is the Subdominant of F? Bb. So then, G7 to Bb to F to C would be an example of that.

The 7 chord is usually a diminshed chord and has many uses. We will only use the 7dim with a minor 7 for this example. We can use the 7dim7- chord as a passing chord to one of the minor chords in the scale (the 2, 3, and 6 chord). For example: Dm to Bdim7- to E7 to C. In this example, the Dm is substituting for the F. Bdim7- is a passing chord to Am. C is substituting Am, and we are using the dominant of Am (E7) as a passing chord to Am (which, as I said before, is substituted with C).

So, this exercise is going to use:




The 1 chord can be substituted for the 3 and 6 chords and vice versa.

The 4 chord can be substituted for the 2 chord and vice versa.

The Dominant chord of a chord that is in the C scale can be used as a passing chord.

The Subdominant chord of a chord that is in the C scale can be used as a passing chord.

The "7 diminished with a 7 minor" chord will be used as a passing chord to one of the minor chords.



||__C__|__Am__|__C__|__G7__|__Am__|__F__|__C / G7__|__C__||


||__C__|__E7__|__Am__|__F__|__C__|__A7__|__D7__|__G7__||


||__Am / Em__|__F / C__|__D7__|__G7__|__Bb / F__|__Am / Em__|__Dm__|__G7__||


||__Am__|__Bdim7min / E7__|__F__|__Dm / G7__|__F__|__C__|__Dm__|__Bdim7min / E7__||


||__C__|__Em__|__C / A7(C#)__|__Dm__|__ F__|__ Bdim7min__|__Dm / G7__|__C__||


||__C__|__Am__|__C__|__G7__|__Am__|__F__|__C / G7__|__C__||



Don't worry if that was confusing to you. Later on, I'll take a familiar tune that doesn't use so many chords and we can all have fun with it.

Licha

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"Only those who have the patience to do the simple things perfectly ever aquire the skill to do the difficult things easily."

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Edited by - AZfiddler_1996 on 09/24/2008 15:02:27

bsed - Posted - 09/24/2008:  15:34:14

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Very well explained, as well as any tutorial I've seen!
I'm still a little uncertain about what terms like 'diminished' and 'suspended' mean.
But reading your post was a great review!

Just call me Dwight.

bj - Posted - 09/24/2008:  17:30:12

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quote:

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Very well explained, as well as any tutorial I've seen!
I'm still a little uncertain about what terms like 'diminished' and 'suspended' mean.

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These are used in jazz a lot. Oldtime pretty much sticks to majors and minors, near as I can tell.

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com

My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

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Edited by - bj on 09/24/2008 17:31:23

bluegrassman - Posted - 09/24/2008:  17:33:24

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I use chords to make a harmony part to a song.

-BG Man

whigski - Posted - 09/24/2008:  18:18:30

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quote:

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Originally posted by bsed

Very well explained, as well as any tutorial I've seen!
I'm still a little uncertain about what terms like 'diminished' and 'suspended' mean.
But reading your post was a great review!

Just call me Dwight.

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Dwight,

Fundamentals chords are made up of an interval called a third "under" another one. They would appear "stacked" in standard notation, for instance, the 3 black circles making up the chord lie on 3 consecutive ledger lines or separated by 2 ledger lines.

Briefly stated, an "interval" containing two "whole steps" like C -E is called a major third, while an interval with 3 half-steps (1 1/2 whole steps, or, even better, the interval containing the 1st and 3rd note in the minor scale) is called a minor third.

C - E -G comprise a MAJOR C chord. (major 3rd under a minor 3rd)

C - E-flat - G comprise a MINOR C chord (minor 3rd under a major 3rd)

C - E-flat - G-flat comprise a DIMINISHED C chord (minor 3rd under a minor 3rd)

C - E - G-sharp comprise an AUGMENTED C chord (a major 3rd under a major 3rd).

You can of course create these 4 chords based on any note you wish. And each of the categories (Maj., Min. Dim., Aug.) has a characteristic sound. It's probably easier to compare them on a guitar or a piano (at least it would be for me!).

I'm sure it's impossible to become an expert on this from my post, since I'm not an expert myself. I hope that I've helped clarify a bit. I think I know what a "suspended" chord is, but I'll leave the question for someone who is more confident about their answer.

Bill

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Edited by - whigski on 09/24/2008 21:44:41

John Gent - Posted - 09/24/2008:  18:36:45

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Licha, it's so good to see you back posting here. Now I've gotta READ that thing, don't I?

You mean I might even have to practice?



- John
Eugene, Oregon, USA

bsed - Posted - 09/24/2008:  19:35:29

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quote:

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Originally posted by bj

quote:

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Very well explained, as well as any tutorial I've seen!
I'm still a little uncertain about what terms like 'diminished' and 'suspended' mean.

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These are used in jazz a lot. Oldtime pretty much sticks to majors and minors, near as I can tell.

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Oh, I know you won't find them in OT music. But I want to be a well-rounded music theorist!

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Edited by - bsed on 09/24/2008 19:37:14

OTJunky - Posted - 09/24/2008:  19:48:13

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You have to be careful not to overdo the theory stuff though.

I was taking guitar lessons about 30 years ago from a good blues/ragtime guitar player in Cambridge, MA.

We were working on a Blind Blake tune and I had a book where the transcriber raved about Blake's "harmonic sophistication" because he thought Blake used a "Neopolitan Fifth" chord about half-way up the neck and mid-way through the tune.

We puzzled over this for a while before realizing that Blake had intended to play a plain old major chord, but when he grabbed the chord, he missed it by one fret...

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

bj - Posted - 09/24/2008:  21:04:20

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quote:

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We puzzled over this for a while before realizing that Blake had intended to play a plain old major chord, but when he grabbed the chord, he missed it by one fret..

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Guess he wasn't watching what he was doing . . .

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com

My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

RobBob - Posted - 09/25/2008:  05:39:05

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Thanks for the food for thought. These bits make great chewing.

RobBob
Music; the best way to count time.
www.blueridgerounders.com

whigski - Posted - 09/25/2008:  08:00:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by bsed

Very well explained, as well as any tutorial I've seen!
I'm still a little uncertain about what terms like 'diminished' and 'suspended' mean.
But reading your post was a great review!

Just call me Dwight.

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Dwight,

I picked up the following from Wikipedia.com. To me, the theory underlying the chord (in the second paragraph) is more interesting than the chord itself. I think this is one of those situations where you just have to listen to the chord within an appropriate context to appreciate it.

\quote "A suspended chord is a chord in which the third is replaced or accompanied by either a perfect fourth or a major second, although the fourth is far more common.

The term is borrowed from the contrapuntal technique of suspension, where a note from a previous chord is carried over to the next chord, and then resolved down to the third or tonic, suspending a note from the previous chord. However, in modern usage, the term concerns only the notes played at a given time; in a suspended chord the added tone does not necessarily resolve, and is not necessarily "prepared" (i.e., held over) from the prior chord.

Suspended chords are most commonly found in folk music and popular music." \end-quote


While I was in the library the other day, I noticed that there exists a "Journal of Music Theory". I agree with OTJ that there is probably no need for us to subscribe. I think a little music theory is nice to have. I never stopped to think to myself---gosh, I wish I knew less about it. Where I am now, at least I know a little about what I'd like to learn more about. For me, it goes back to our philosophy of viewing music as a "journey" rather than a "destination". Even over the last few weeks, my view of JUST HOW MUCH there is to learn about fiddle playing has really grown--and that doesn't even include any music theory. When I listen to fiddlers now, I'm listening more critically, and often asking myself HOW (is the music created). This is analytical. Just like music theory is analytical. OTJ is an engineer--an occupation which is very analytical. Some people including me think doing some analysis is a satisfying process. Like, OTJ said, there is no need to take it (music theory) too far. Based upon my experience as a teacher, I doubt that it's really necessary to worry about this.

Peace,
Bill

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Edited by - whigski on 09/25/2008 09:24:25

TimK - Posted - 09/25/2008:  08:38:20

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[quote]Originally posted by bsed

I'm still a little uncertain about what terms like 'diminished' and 'suspended' mean.
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The way I learned these principals:

A diminished chord = flatted 3rd & flatted 5th
A suspended chord = 4th added to the triad
A augmented chord = 5th raised 1/2 tone

TimK

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Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.

DougD - Posted - 09/25/2008:  08:42:40

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TimK, I think thats about right, although I think the diminished is more common as a diminshed seventh, which also includes a flatted (dominant) seventh note along with the root, third and fifth, and the suspended chord more commonly replaces the third with the fourth, rather than adding it. In my experience.

TimK - Posted - 09/25/2008:  08:51:15

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You are right DougD, my wording was wrong. I should have said 4th replaces 3rd in triad.

TimK

_______________________________________________________________

Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.

Bird Dog - Posted - 09/25/2008:  12:48:40

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Originally posted by bsed

quote:

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Originally posted by bj

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I'm still a little uncertain about what terms like 'diminished' and 'suspended' mean.

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Oh, I know you won't find them in OT music.

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Ah, but you do!

Robin

hanknc - Posted - 09/25/2008:  13:51:55

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A good way for me to relate to chords to think of them as either major, minor or dominant.

I include Diminished and Augmented chords in the dominant chords:

But what do I know.

OTJunky - Posted - 09/25/2008:  15:42:15

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Originally posted by Bird Dog

quote:

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Originally posted by bsed

quote:

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Originally posted by bj

quote:

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I'm still a little uncertain about what terms like 'diminished' and 'suspended' mean.

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Oh, I know you won't find them in OT music.

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Ah, but you do!

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Where?

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

janepaints - Posted - 10/01/2008:  22:28:52

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Originally posted by OTJunky

quote:

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Originally posted by Bird Dog

quote:

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Originally posted by bsed

quote:

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Originally posted by bj

quote:

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I'm still a little uncertain about what terms like 'diminished' and 'suspended' mean.

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Oh, I know you won't find them in OT music.

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Ah, but you do!

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Where?

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

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Diminished chords are less-common, suspended chords more-common, though often implied or suggested by motifs & contours of a fiddle tune itself. Some back-up players pick-up on that aspect and reinforce it, even if in only passing tones & passing chords, others don't.

Examples which came to mind are:

Arthur Smith's Adieu False Heart.. In Dirk Powell's version of the tune, the suspended chords are more-obvious, and are reinforced by being echoed in the vocal harmonies.

Some versions of 'Bonaparte's Retreat.'

Eck Robertson's celebrated solo version of Sally Goodin implies suspended chords in the underlying harmonic structure. Try playing along with it on banjo or guitar and using suspended chords at various points rather than just 1/4/5's.

IMO that some of the mysteriouness (vagueness?) of the harmonic structure of Hoyt Ming's Indian War Whoop derives from suspended chords--though they might've been formed by Happy Accident rather than deliberately, some of the back-up musicians playing the one-chord while others voiced a four chord. Whichever, it sounds fabulous.

another: J.C. Mainer's Run Mountain.

another: Lady Of Carlyle

another: When First Unto This Country.

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Edited by - janepaints on 10/01/2008 22:38:19

coelhoe - Posted - 10/02/2008:  07:30:45

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"Lady of Carlyle" is in Dorian mode (to my ear, anyway). " But using a IVsus. in "When First Unto This Country" (which seems pentatonic) is very nice. Thank you.

"Run Mountain" is just weird. There are several different ways to think about the harmony.

We must have the same NLCR Songbook.

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

Hi Strung - Posted - 10/02/2008:  10:47:39

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quote:

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Originally posted by hanknc

A good way for me to relate to chords to think of them as either major, minor or dominant.

I include Diminished and Augmented chords in the dominant chords:

But what do I know.

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This is how I know them as, too.

God put a fiddle in my hands
and told me to play.

Monkey - Posted - 10/02/2008:  16:30:31

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"Bdim7min" - weird notation. Can you spell that one out? I think you mean "B-D-F-Ab" ( Bmin7b5 - half diminished).

Welcome back, by the way ;-)

janepaints - Posted - 10/03/2008:  10:17:20

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Originally posted by coelhoe

"Lady of Carlyle" is in Dorian mode (to my ear, anyway). " But using a IVsus. in "When First Unto This Country" (which seems pentatonic) is very nice. Thank you.

"Run Mountain" is just weird. There are several different ways to think about the harmony.

We must have the same NLCR Songbook.

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I love the NLCR. As a kid I didn't have that large a record pile, but it included two lps by them and the first two Holy Modal Rounders discs. Excellent twin starting-points for getting a sense of the old stuff. NLCR: the appolloian-classicist side of the equation, HMR: the dionysian-hogwild aspect.

I think it's great (and VELLY, VELLY INTERESTING) that Peter Stampfel and John Cohen have recently joined forces to hatch a new combo The Velocity Ramblers

They might even discover (or invent) some new modes! Pixielydian...or maybe Geezermolian?

janepaints - Posted - 10/03/2008:  10:21:57

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Originally posted by coelhoe

"Run Mountain" is just weird. There are several different ways to think about the harmony.

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Gotta hunch that nobody involved was thinking about much of anything when 'Run Mountain' was hatched. Right up there with 'Indian War Woop' in the Profoundly Unresolvable & Incomprehensible Mysteries Of The Ages dept. :)

coelhoe - Posted - 10/03/2008:  15:25:18

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Jane: I think there is something more sophisticated going on with "Run Mountain." I wouldn't be surprised to find that some classical, or big band, bridge uses that II-I-V7 progression as a modulation and our boys heard it on the radio. I'm always suspicious of something like that which seems absolutely unique, and nothing else seems to relate to it, before or after.

Or, you can think of the verse as modal, and the chorus as standard. NLCR sets it the key of C but places the chorus in F without the Bb. The only notes in the song are ADEFG, with F as the starting and ending note.

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock