Clompy2 - Posted - 11/18/2018:  06:20:54

Hi everyone, I'm upgrading from my Glasser fiberglass bow after about 2 years of playing OT fiddle and need advice.



I went to my local violin shop and tried a $130 "brazilwood" Chinese bow and a $400 pernambuco German bow from around the WW2 era.  Comparison:

• The cheaper bow has a much nicer sound to me, it is less treble-y and emphasizes the D resonance just as much as the A-- I can feel great vibrations in the neck when playing the D string. It has more of a OT sound, even my husband said, unprompted, and he doesn't even play. However it is hard to play, maybe it is slow to respond? Even my intonation was horrible at first, but improved after trialing it at home for a day. 


• The pernambuco bow was much easier to play (aside from some bow bounce that is not the bow's fault), and had a warmer sound than the CF sticks I tried, but not as warm and sweet as the brazilwood bow.  It's more treble-y.  The E string sounds more shrill, at least under the ear, and the D string resonance felt in the neck isn't as strong.  It altogether sounds more violin-y 

Im interested in your general thoughts and also responses to the two Qs below:

1. Should I stay away from the cheaper bow?  I'm worried it will ingrain bad habits, even if I get better at using it, which I most likely would.  Or does the fact that out of 6 bows I tried (CF and wood), that it was the hardest to play, not necessarily mean it's a bad bow?


2. Do you think I can find a higher quality, antique bow that sounds like the cheap bow?  Or does pernambuco and similar just not sound like that?


3. Any guesses as to the tangible properties (thickness, weight, age, etc.) of the cheap bow that allow it to pull this sound from the fiddle?  I ask so I can look for another bow like it.

Edited by - Clompy2 on 11/18/2018 06:21:37

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 11/18/2018:  07:00:33

Hmmmm .... The choice of a bow is a very personal one. What music you play will have a great deal to do with what feels best in your hand. Also any new bow is going to take some time to adjust to. Keep in mind the weight of a bow will make a great difference in how it "plays" along with flexibility. My recommendation is to take your fiddle and go play it with as many bows as you are able. Your style and instrument will "tell" you which bow to buy. Buying a bow without playing with it is definitely a bad idea , one of my hard learned lessons. How much or how little you spend is really a secondary question until you get to the point where your wallet says NO! Also, sadly, 500.00$ is not a great deal to spend on a student grade bow. IMO you could do worse than play some Coda carbon fiber bows in the 300.00$ to 500.00$ range. These bows are of high enough quality to play well and tough enough to hold up to accidental bumps. Lastly I LOVE my old German Pernambuco bows .... but they were IMO $$$$ and they were much less expensive than French bows by an order of magnitude ....... Luck... R/

Clompy2 - Posted - 11/18/2018:  07:33:20

I'm aware of all these generalities, having already read several threads here and elsewhere about choosing bows. And no, I'm not considering buying a bow without playing it-- I already made a trip to my local violin shop after all.   I'm really looking for feedback on my 3 specific questions.  Obviously none of you have tried the bows I'm talking about, but anyone have any relevant experience that speaks to my questions?

I do appreciate the Coda bow recommendation, but i'm focusing on wood.  Already tried 3 CF but preferred the tone of the wood bows and just feel like keeping it natural for now.

DougD - Posted - 11/18/2018:  08:10:53

1. A bow that's hard to play will likely always be a hindrance, even more so as your skills and ambitions improve.
2. On the other hand, a bow that makes unpleasant sounds is not going to make you very happy either.Wood bows vary tremendously, even in the same price range, so its certainly possible you can find an old one more to your liking.
3. If its Chinese its probably not very old, since they haven't been in the market too long. You can measure the weight and thickness, but it won't predict anything about the performance of another bow, since each stick of wood is different. You might find you prefer a certain weight though.
Sounds to me like you need to keep looking. Good luck!

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/18/2018:  08:27:54

I have a wood bow from my early days of fiddling (bought it in the mid 90s). It sounds great but is not nearly as well balanced as a $200ish CF bow I purchased about 5 years ago for traveling and hot humid days. The wood sounds... woodier? sweeter anyway but there are fast phrases that are just way easier with the CF. I use the wood one for waltzes these days.



#1 - yes

#2 - yes (seems to be two Qs there) and you'd be surprised how many differences between bows there are, after all, according to your post, you ONLY tried two.

#3 Who knows? I'm not holding that bow. Is it heavier? That's one variable of many that can make a difference, and just about every bow and fiddle combination is different. I suggest you try a couple bows AND a couple of fiddles to see how that works, in case you find that idea a little questionable. Why must it be "antique?" 



The bow is not a pick, but as you probably know, the pick one uses, like the bow, can change your tone and attack. The difference is, with wood bow, like violins, a maker might use the same dimensions but wood has variables that will make those bows a little different each time. I had the experience of being in a jam at Clifftop where a bow maker who was friends with the host arrived with 3 (or 4, can't remember) bows he made. All looked identical and were within a gram or two in weight of each other (that's one of the variables). There was one that sounded way better with my fiddle, and it wasn't the same one preferred by all the others (there were different preferences for some, for each bow). Not intending to tell you anything you already know, just sharing my real world experience.

Edited by - ChickenMan on 11/18/2018 08:30:58

Mobob - Posted - 11/18/2018:  08:57:10

do not overlook the importance of the type and quality of hair on each bow, equally important in the sound you produce, in my experience.

Clompy2 - Posted - 11/18/2018:  09:22:02

Thank you all, your responses to #1 are what I was afraid of. Sounds like I should pass on this cheaper bow though I love its sound. Woody is a good way to put it, it did sound woodier. And it's interesting that Billy mentioned making use of his earlier wood bow to play waltzes. I played the Tennessee Waltz on this cheaper bow and it sounded really great, made me feel like I was on some deserted horse ranch by myself out west (or, i suppose, in TN  )



I actually did try a total of 6 bows which I know is not much, but I think my local violin shop has limited inventory in my price range. I may need to travel or do some mail order trials.



Regarding #3, thank you for entertaining my question without seeing the bow. I know it's difficult to comment but I just threw it out there in case are certain things that are seen commonly in wood bows that sound less treble-y, at these low price ranges. I did notice that the bow was perhaps a bit heavier, but for sure it was noticeably thicker. Somehow it felt a little floppy and less precise? I don't know how else to describe it because I have limited awareness of these things.



I completely believe your experience about different bows from the same maker sounding totally different on the same violin.  Especially with wood, since this is not a material that can be standardized, even if cut from the same plank.



The wood bow I'm looking for need not be antique. I just figured that that would be more in my price range if we're talking about pernambuco or other high quality wood that makes for easy handing and longevity. By antique I just mean decades old, perhaps I've use the term incorrectly for the fiddle/violin world. Because I figure with antique/old bows, I can probably find one that is not perfect but has been reasonably fixed by a luthier. Whereas a new pernambuco or similar high quality wood bow is probably going to be perfect (for now) and out of my price range. Am I wrong? I just figured like with any other musical instrument you can usually get a better value with an older instrument. I'm not talking older like centuries necessarily, but just a few decades. That being said, my fiddle is a lion's head fiddle from Mittenwald, Germany in the 1860s, and I was surprised how great it sounds for the amount of money I paid for it nearly 20 years ago ( $400, which would be 600 today according to an online calculator). Unfortunately life got in the way and I just picked the fiddle up again this year after its laying untouched since the turn of the millennium.  Surprisingly it wasn't that hard to attain and surpass my prior skill level, but this may be because that is not a very high hurdle to clear.

 

rosinhead - Posted - 11/18/2018:  09:26:19

I think you should wait it out until you can try some other bows. Find a shop that has a decent/large inventory and go there with plenty of time to sample them. When I was bow shopping earlier this year I drove 8 hours (4 hours both ways) to have a large selection to sample from. That may be too extreme of a trip for some, but for me it was well worth it. The bow is such an important part of playing that I didn't want to settle for the best I could find locally (which wasn't any better than what I was using). If you don't have the means to travel then order trial bows from Shar or Johnson Strings possibly.  I wouldn't purchase anything until you find one that "speaks" to you.  One that has improved tone, response, and ease of play over your current bow.

Edited by - rosinhead on 11/18/2018 09:29:48

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/18/2018:  11:36:22

A couple of things:

A bow can indeed be bouncy and hard to control. Also the -very- high end bows are for the demands of classical music, the differences may not be noticed or utilized by an old time player.

And floppy is a good description of what you don't want, no matter how much you like the tone. These are the reasons some would say it is more important a purchase than your instrument. A beginner should be looking for a bow that is well balanced no matter what. As for old timey sound and violin-y sound I guess I understand what you mean, but for me those two things have more to do with the player's execution than anything related to the physical components. You will be better able to execute the music with a balanced bow, and as you get better, you may be surprised at how your tone will change. But, if you are like most, you will never be satisfied 

boxbow - Posted - 11/18/2018:  17:27:55

If you don't like the sound of the pernambuco bow but liked the handling, remember that but don't buy a bow you don't like the sound of.



The less expensive bow, on the other hand, could be a good intermediate bow and/or future back-up bow. Especially if it makes you like your own fiddling.



Your search for the right bow will never end. Think strategically here.

I have a bow that's a little heavy and slow but it grabs tone out of my fiddle that's otherwise pretty elusive.  I have another quick little hot rod of a bow, but it pulls too little volume out of the fiddle for playing out. 

Edited by - boxbow on 11/18/2018 17:31:26

giannaviolins - Posted - 11/20/2018:  06:51:14

Overdamped gives the mellower sound.

Fortunately, fiddlers tend to like "bad" classical bows - ones that don't pull the very top end out of the spectrum.
On composites, you might well like the Coda Luma. I suggest trying one. Easy handling, light, steady on the strings, allows shaping tone easily.

Clompy2 - Posted - 11/25/2018:  08:18:47

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

A couple of things:

A bow can indeed be bouncy and hard to control. Also the -very- high end bows are for the demands of classical music, the differences may not be noticed or utilized by an old time player.

---

@chickenman

Do you think wood bows in the $400 range can have bounce that isn't due to bad user technique?  Let's assume we're talking about a reputable seller.

Clompy2 - Posted - 11/25/2018:  14:33:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clompy2

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

A couple of things:

A bow can indeed be bouncy and hard to control. Also the -very- high end bows are for the demands of classical music, the differences may not be noticed or utilized by an old time player.

---

@chickenman

Do you think wood bows in the $400 range can have bounce that isn't due to bad user technique?  Let's assume we're talking about a reputable seller.

---

To clarify, I know some ability to bounce is desirable for classical music and advanced playing in other styles.  I'm just asking about inappropriate tendency to bounce here.

BTW, this is my first post to Fiddle Hangout and I'm stoked with the speed and helpfulness of peoples' responses!  So let me ask a couple more Qs:

4.  Can anyone hazard a guess as to why my intonation was worse with the cheap bow?  Could it be due to it sounding the strings slower or faster than I'm used to, so the instantaneous adjustments in finger position that we presumably all make were more difficult to do?  It's weird that I only had a significant intonation problem with that bow (at least, at first--  it did improve during the home trial), and not the other 5 I tried.

5.  Is there a rule of thumb with heavier vs lighter or flexible vs stiff bows in terms of thickness or warmness of sound?  I am sure there are exceptions and nothing is better than just trying a lot of bows with one's fiddle, but I'm asking so that I can narrow down bows to try or ask for a bunch of bows that have certain physical characteristics, as a starting point.

Clompy2 - Posted - 11/25/2018:  14:44:56

quote:

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Originally posted by giannaviolins

Overdamped gives the mellower sound.



Fortunately, fiddlers tend to like "bad" classical bows - ones that don't pull the very top end out of the spectrum.

On composites, you might well like the Coda Luma. I suggest trying one. Easy handling, light, steady on the strings, allows shaping tone easily.

---

@giannaviolins

Thanks for the rec, Steve.  I do like the lightness of one CF bow I tried and it was so much easier to handle, I just thought the sound was a bit thin.  Coda seems to come up a lot around here, so I guess many fiddlers like them so they must have a default sound that is more compatible with OT and other styles...  I'll try to get my hands on one...

By overdamped, do you mean a bow that dampens the high overtones of the fiddle?  What was interesting about this cheap brazilwood bow was that in addition to not having high overtones (which my ears don't like, I have hyperacusis), it also had a stronger vibration in the neck when playing open D than the other bows.  The other bows had strong vibration when playing A, but not so much with D.