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Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/19/2008: 08:33:56
When it comes to improvising there are a few things I have learned over the years that really changed the way I look at things.
One is that pitch is only half the music. As old time players we dont get to involved with time. The little syncopation's and shuffles we always hear in OT fiddling and contest fiddling really is only scratching the surface. They tend to stand out because thats all there is.
It doesnt have to be.
We play in 4/4 3/4 2/4 and some 6/8 and anything else is highly unusual.
One thing every time signature has in common is the 1 count.
That's the trick.
If you can learn to play your music and tap your foot only to the 1 count then you can easily play in any time signature in you want.
This is a technique that can be used by improvisational players in any style of music.
An example of 4/4.
Instead of counting 1, 2, 3, 4
try tapping your foot ONLY on the beat in the brackets.
(1) 2, 3, 4....(1) 2, 3, 4....(1) 2, 3, 4
Now think of it like this
(1) 2, 3, 4....(2) 2, 3, 4....(3) 2, 3, 4....(4) 2, 3, 4
With a little practice you can play in any time signature. here is 5/4
(1) 2, 3, 4, 5,....(2) 2, 3, 4, 5....(3) 2, 3, 4, 5....(4) 2, 3, 4, 5
everyone is in 5/4 but you are counting (1) (2) (3) (4)
Now you can play 5/4 when everyone else is playing 4/4. Try a repetitive note pattern that is 5 notes long while counting in 4/4 using 8th notes with no rests.
Now try 3/4 over 4/4 or 7/4 over 3/4 or 4/4 the possibilities can keep you busy for awhile.
Some of the other benefits from playing only to the 1 count is is the ability to create long sweeping phrases with an
"over the bar lines feel" more common in texas swing, jazz.
The little syncopated things we play in fiddle tunes are a very simple example of this . We call it syncopation, but technically what we are doing is layering one time signature over another in bits and pieces for a brief period of time.
I hope this makes sense and I hope someone finds the information as useful as I did.
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
Edited by - Vinny Ray on 09/19/2008 09:17:32
TimK - Posted - 09/19/2008: 09:17:40
Also not common in old time fiddling but a lot of fun, is changing time signatures within a tune. Durring the late 60's & early seventies, Blood Sweat & Tears and Chicago Transit Authority (original name) set a trend in bands that featured horn sections. I was fortunate to play bass in a group with a monster horn section. One of the most fun tunes we did was by CTA. It started in 4/4 went to 6/8 back to 4/4 then to 7/4 back to 4/4 and ended in 10/8 ! That sure kept me on my toes 
TimK
_______________________________________________________________
Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.
Edited by - TimK on 09/19/2008 09:19:16
DougD - Posted - 09/19/2008: 09:25:50
I'm not sure how the dancers will feel about this.
Hi Strung - Posted - 09/19/2008: 09:35:43
Interesting. I'm making a copy to bring with me to my lesson in the hopes my instructor can go through it once with me as I tend to learn "hands on" and hearing it better than if I just read it.
Thanks for sharing Vinny.
God put a fiddle in my hands
and told me to play.
transplant - Posted - 09/19/2008: 09:37:03
Here is a carol that slaps a measure of 4/4 into the middle of a 3/4 tune. Guess you could call it a metrical fermata or some such. Ancient sound that I love.
http://tomkeays.com/music/xmas/plea...the_king.pdf
________________________________________________
kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
TimK - Posted - 09/19/2008: 09:47:51
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
I'm not sure how the dancers will feel about this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug,
Whenever we played that tune, we announced that it was a show tune and don't try to dance to it.
TimK
_______________________________________________________________
Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.
DougD - Posted - 09/19/2008: 09:51:06
That was mighty considerate of you Tim!! I was thinking about dancers at an old time square dance.
transplant - Thats what so-called "crooked" fiddle tunes are - tunes with some measures longer or shorter than the rest. Thats why they're not used for dancing with calls - the figures don't come out right. There are some great ones for playing though.
hanknc - Posted - 09/19/2008: 10:07:16
Why would you want to sound like Zappa on an Old Time fiddle tune?
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/19/2008: 10:23:31
The objective is to develop the freedom to be able to do anything we want musically.
How can we call ourselves musicians otherwise?
Until we reach that point we are all students, not musicians.
Just my opinion.'
'
quote:
Originally posted by hanknc
Why would you want to sound like Zappa on an Old Time fiddle tune?
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
musekatcher - Posted - 09/19/2008: 10:52:10
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
transplant - Thats what so-called "crooked" fiddle tunes are - tunes with some measures longer or shorter than the rest. Thats why they're not used for dancing with calls - the figures don't come out right. There are some great ones for playing though.
??? We play many a crooked tune for dances?!? Squares that is
Jim Holland
Athens, AL
DougD - Posted - 09/19/2008: 11:03:18
Really Jim? Could you name a few? I'm thinking of tunes like "Camp Chase" for example. None of the callers I know would want that. Even tunes with three parts don't work very well.
tango_grass - Posted - 09/19/2008: 11:03:49
That was a good post Vinny. Thanks.
Different time signatures are the best part of music in my eyes. Being a fan of Folk music from around the world, I've encountered a few odd ones. 7/8 9/8 11/8 25/8 Of course, think about the Polska's from Scandinavia, in 3/4, but all we do is emphasize the 1 and 3 beats, and wham, a totally different feeling, not a waltz, thats for sure!
The idea of us being musicians is that there is so much out there we can do, simply changing the groove is one of them. besides, it so much gosh darn fun to play in 7/8! 
Apologies for getting off the original nature of the topic.
Chris,
Visit Tango_grass on Myspace! Click here!
----
The VZ Valley Boys
+ 
= 
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 09/19/2008: 11:09:25
quote:
Originally posted by hanknc
Why would you want to sound like Zappa on an Old Time fiddle tune?
Hi Hank,
Is there someone who said they want to "sound like Zappa on an old-time fiddle tune"?
scrubber - Posted - 09/19/2008: 12:02:18
Pitch isn't even 'half' the music! Rhythm and meter are much more important! (I'm thinking, especially, of some creole music I've heard that, chordally, had me mystified!
).
People can dance to just about anything if it matches the rhythm of their dance! Playing styles meant for dancing, however, should ensure that the dance patterns are accomodated by the music (which usually requires more than one strong beat to a measure, waltzes excepted).
If the onus is on the creativity of the player, however (whether based on the player's inventiveness with dance forms or whatever) then the rules are changed, and just about anything goes! Asymmetrical divisions of measures and beats (as detailed by Vinny Ray) would be included here. I love doing this kind of thing, but, admittedly, it can't be used at a dance...
Edited by - scrubber on 09/19/2008 12:22:04
OTJunky - Posted - 09/19/2008: 12:26:16
Maybe it could be used at an "improvisational" dance...
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
musekatcher - Posted - 09/19/2008: 12:40:28
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Really Jim? Could you name a few? I'm thinking of tunes like "Camp Chase" for example. None of the callers I know would want that. Even tunes with three parts don't work very well.
If you're caller only calls contras, he/she will require you to play straight, 32 bar pieces. But for a square, the caller can handle crooked and unsquare pieces as long as the tempo remains steady. And its traditional! BTW, some professional contra bands have perfected the art of going from reels to jigs (meter change, tempo constant) while keeping the beat. A novel technique.
Jim Holland
Athens, AL
hanknc - Posted - 09/20/2008: 04:44:46
I was just being a wise cracker. I understand what you mean.
quote:
Originally posted by Vinny Ray
The objective is to develop the freedom to be able to do anything we want musically.
How can we call ourselves musicians otherwise?
Until we reach that point we are all students, not musicians.
Just my opinion.''
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
transplant - Posted - 09/20/2008: 06:59:14
7/8 feels like dancing to me, definitely not a square or a reel, but more of a line dance in a sort of staggering 3, taken moderately fast as 3,2,2 3,2,2 ...
________________________________________________
kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/20/2008: 08:53:29
You all may be missing the point.
I dont explain very well.
The post is about a fiddler playing a cool riff over sally goodin.
Not about a dance band trying to get people to dance to odd meters.
I am trying to explain an easy way for a fiddler to easily improvise briefly in an odd time signature while the band remains in 4/4
I dont think an improvisational dance would be necessary if a fiddler decides to play something cool for 4 beats.
More likely the dancers wouldnt even notice.
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
Maybe it could be used at an "improvisational" dance...
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
Maybe it could be used at an "improvisational" dance...
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
transplant - Posted - 09/20/2008: 09:24:16
one word: hemiola.
Not just the fiddler, but the whole group can play a measure or two of a waltz in 6/8 for example, and not throw off the dancers, if they do it right. If they don't keep that one... one... going, though, it can lead to couples rassling out on the floor.
________________________________________________
kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
OTJunky - Posted - 09/20/2008: 09:36:02
Maybe...
There two kinds of dance bands though.
One, where the fiddle's dominant and is supposed to carry the rhythm - like Bob Holt's dances in Missouri.
Another, where the there's a strong rhythm section to carry the rhythm and the fiddler can play around a bit.
I can see where playing around with the time signature like this might work - even add interest - in the second kind of dance band, but I've a feeling it might cause some cognitive dissonance among people dancing to the first kind of dance band.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
hanknc - Posted - 09/20/2008: 10:14:55
I think Vinny Ray is speaking of improvising quintuplets, or septuplets while the band is playing something like Sally Goodin ( 2/4 ). It reminded me of Zappa's music and his style of improvisation. I never hear that in OT music, but I'd probably like it!
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/20/2008: 10:23:18
Close.
I suppose I should record an example.
triplets and quintuplets can be played in any time signature.
Im speaking of playing in 7/4 or 5/4 while the band is in 4/4
quote:
Originally posted by hanknc
I think Vinny Ray is speaking of improvising quintuplets, or septuplets while the band is playing something like Sally Goodin ( 2/4 ). It reminded me of Zappa's music and his style of improvisation. I never hear that in OT music, but I'd probably like it!
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/20/2008: 10:44:27
Knowledge NEVER inhibits expression. It gives you the freedom to express.
The only players I have ever heard that claimed theory was a bad thing were fresh players or players who have been playing the same way for 37 years.
If it wasnt for theory you wouldnt even be able to tune an instrument.
Even if you dont know the terms and notes consciously, its in your mind unconsciously.
If you know what notes fit in an "A chord" then that's theory even if you don't know the names of the notes.
If you know that G,C D chords fit together in the key of G, that's theory.
Even if you don't know the names of the chords.
If you know you can put a capo on the second fret and play guitar in g while the fiddler is in A then that's theory as well.
That tiny bit of theory has gotten you this far why stop there?
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/20/2008: 11:10:01
Yes.
If done properly it sounds like a hot fiddle lick.
The beat, tempo never changes.
The "shuffle bowing" in OBS is a small example.
quote:
Originally posted by Nikolas
Superimposing time signatures over the base signature still maintains the base time structure so the dancers should be fine - no?
My recordings for your ear bleeding enjoyment.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/def...ontent=music
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
OTJunky - Posted - 09/20/2008: 11:34:17
quote:
Originally posted by Nikolas
Superimposing time signatures over the base signature still maintains the base time structure so the dancers should be fine - no?
In theory, yes - but if you get too fancy with your fiddling in some parts of the country most dancers will just leave the floor - though I suppose it's till possible to get something thrown at you.
Probably this depends on whether or not the dancers paid for the music...
But I don't think Vinny's talking about this kind of dance fiddling.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/20/2008: 12:17:09
I don't normally think about dancers when trying to learn the violin.
I know a lot of you people do. I am not used to that.
I have only recently re-developed an interest in OT and Bluegrass again.
Mostly due to the fact that I acquired an acoustic violin about a year ago.
I have not owned one in 15 years. I have been playing electric.
If I have to play simple OT for dancers of course that is what I would play.
I also think about how to play beyond that. To feel comfortable playing OT on one tune and Funk Rock on the next.
For me, I don't play for the dancers. I play for me because I want to get better.
If I have to leave the OT dancers behind and enter the worlds of jazz and swing to expand my playing abilities then I will do it with a smile.
The OT dancers will be there when I am done.
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
Superimposing time signatures over the base signature still maintains the base time structure so the dancers should be fine - no?
In theory, yes - but if you get too fancy with your fiddling in some parts of the country most dancers will just leave the floor - though I suppose it's till possible to get something thrown at you.
Probably this depends on whether or not the dancers paid for the music...
But I don't think Vinny's talking about this kind of dance fiddling.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
[/quote]
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
OTJunky - Posted - 09/20/2008: 12:41:29
quote:
Originally posted by Vinny Ray
For me, I don't play for the dancers. I play for me because I want to get better.
Yup - I get this now.
I'll stop bugging you about dance fiddling....
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
bsed - Posted - 09/20/2008: 12:44:54
Vinny==Interesting idea to play in one meter while others in the band play in another. I think I get your point, and Yes!, I'd love to hear an example.
But I don't know if any alternate meter can be played over, say, a 4/4.
Can a 7/4? Can a 9/4? Are there meters that don't fit well together?
You might expect to be able to figure it out arithmetically, but I'm so lousy at counting while I'm playing, don't ask me to.
But I think what you're saying, Vinny, is that as long as you keep counting the 1 beat you'll be OK. I think where this might not sound too good is if YOU'RE playing 7/4 and the rest of the band is playing 4/4, how often will the one-beats coincide?
If it doesn't happen too frequently, you're going to have a sonic mess, I fear.
Just call me Dwight.
OTJunky - Posted - 09/20/2008: 12:51:24
I think what Vinny's saying is that if you're playing along in 4/4 time - where each measure has a set duration - you can switch to 5/4 time if you'd like (or some other time signature), but you keep the temporal duration of the measures the same.
So, if the tune were a simple one where you'd literally be playing quarter notes, you'd be playing four notes per measure in 4/4 time and at 120 beats per minute each measure would take 2 seconds - though I'm sure Vinny would never play at 120 beats per minute...
So, if you want to inject a couple of measures in 5/4 time, you'd play five notes per measure. But you'd play'em a little faster so that each measure still lasts 2 seconds. That way all the "one's" keep coming along every 2 seconds.
Is that right?
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 09/20/2008 12:52:28
bsed - Posted - 09/20/2008: 13:00:17
Ah! OK. That's a pretty good way to think about it.
Just call me Dwight.
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/20/2008: 14:40:47
When superimposing time signatures you don't need to play it till it comes around and coincides with the 1 count again.
Its meant to be used as a lick or a riff a couple measures long or longer depending on what you choose to play.
An easy example in 5/4 over 4/4 would be a repetitive pattern of notes that repeat every 5 notes. No rests.
Or you could use descending and ascending scale patterns.
For instance descending in 5/4 in 4/4 time in key C, :cbagfbagfeagfedgfedc: play these as eighth notes no rests, then when you get it down, as 16ths with no rests.
Loop this example over and over with no rest while tapping your foot to 4/4 time.
The notes are grouped into patterns of 5. But the band is playing in 4/4.
When you think you have it down make sure there are "no rests" involved. It should be as smooth and steady as a tremolo.
This is what it can sound like when superimposing 5/4 over 4/4.
Notice the beat appears in a different place in the pattern each time through. This teaches you to hear the 1 count come around independently of your fingers or bow.
When you can do that you can start to use bits and pieces of these concepts and paste them together as you wish as you go into them and out of them freely.
When you can do that you can begin to fly.
quote:
But I think what you're saying, Vinny, is that as long as you keep counting the 1 beat you'll be OK. I think where this might not sound too good is if YOU'RE playing 7/4 and the rest of the band is playing 4/4, [i]how often will the one-beats coincide?
If it doesn't happen too frequently, you're going to have a sonic mess, I fear. [/font=Georgia]
Just call me Dwight.
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
Edited by - Vinny Ray on 09/20/2008 14:53:49
bsed - Posted - 09/20/2008: 15:01:15
OK, I'm cool!
Just call me Dwight.
OTJunky - Posted - 09/20/2008: 15:29:37
Yeah - this is different than I thought.
But I get it now.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 09/21/2008 08:59:01
Sue B. - Posted - 09/21/2008: 08:57:52
IF you want to count beats, the Cajun two-step is loaded with a similar sort of rhythmic layering. It is very danceable, but can make people crazy till they get a sense of it. The two-step tunes themselves are in 2/2 time (or 4/4), but sometimes have a 3/2 bar at the end of the A. A common two-step goes long-short-short, which is a 4/4 bar. For dancers who want the start-up foot to match the beginning of the phrase, that 3/2 measure is unsettling. It all evens out again at the end of the repeat if you just keep going. Even more interesting is the two-step that goes long-long-short-short, which is one-and-a-half measures of 2/2. That gets the start-up foot back on a phrase beginning or middle every four measures, but if you then add in the 3/2 that pops up in some tunes.... Some call it creating exciting tension on the dance floor. Sue
TimK - Posted - 09/22/2008: 06:39:53
An excellant example of superimposing time signatures was done on a early album by the British group YES. It was called Perpetual change. The tune went through a number of different time changes and concluded by playing all the different sections
superimposed over each other. IT is an awesome tune!
TimK
_______________________________________________________________
Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 09/22/2008: 06:52:51
quote:
Originally posted by TimK
[...]Perpetual change. [...] IT is an awesome tune!
No doubt about that.
berg - Posted - 09/27/2008: 05:15:53
Now I am danish and in our tradition there are quite a few dancetunes that plays in 2/4 but where the dancers are dancing 3/4..
We also have some waltzes that go 2 bars 3/4 and 2 bars 2/4..
Besides that I agree with Vinny Ray that it is good to have a technique to overcome counting every beat when improvising - that also makes it easier to get the chord changes right..
