Rustylee - Posted - 07/16/2007:  09:10:06

---

I see references to hornpipes, waltzes, reels, and what ever else there is. I was wondering what it is about these different types of tunes that makes them what they are? In a competition how many different types of music are there?

I know I heard of a fiddler who was very good so he went to the state fiddle championship. While there he was told that in the competition he had to play something from each of 3 categories and then one something else. It seems that in the judges opinion he played two of the same kind of tunes so he was disqualified. So where is it written just what makes a hornpipe a hornpipe and so on.
Thanks,
Rusty <><

Dick Hauser - Posted - 07/16/2007:  10:34:15

---

In Peter Cooper's book/CD "The Complete Irish Fiddler", he teaches all types of Irish tunes. Here is what I "gleaned" for the chapters on reels and hornpipes. First of all, both tunes are played in 2/4 (cut) time. Most of the time, the 1st and 5th notes are emphasized. When playing a hornpipe, the notes are played as though each pair of notes consisted on a "dotted" 8th note and a 16th note.

Having said all that, here is something else. Americans often play hornpipes without playing each pair of notes they way I wrote above. Do that, increase the tempo, and it would be hard to tell a hornpipe from a reel. I understand Canadians are undecided, and play hornpipes both ways.

Originally, Irish music was written to accomodate dancers.

gulfguy

allenadale - Posted - 07/16/2007:  10:45:03

---

I guess no one else has tried to answer this yet, so let me take a stab at it. Reels are played in cut time. The rhythm is straight and usually pretty fast. There are some differences between Irish-style reels and old-time, but I won't get into that here. Most of those differences don't hold true in every case, and there is a lot of bleed through between the two traditions.

Hornpipes are generally played a little slower than reels. In the Celtic tradition, hornpipes have a bounce and are sometimes notated with doted 8th notes and 16th note pairs. Strathspays, clogs and Scottishes alter this rhythm by sometimes having the 16th come before the dotted 8th. There is no set pattern for this, it depends on the melody and the player. I read that Scottishes were originally a Germanic attempt to play Scottish music, and as such they tend to be a little more strict in altering over to 16ths and dotted 8ths.

In the US, hornpipes have becomed straightened out to work better with the style of dancing done here.

Jigs (or quadrilles) are mostly in 6/8 time. However, there are slip jigs in 9/8, slides in 12/8 and some other variants.

Waltzes, of course, are played in 3/4 and tend to have a lilt to them.

Aires are slow, ballad-like tunes often played in minor keys. They tend to have a freer rhythm, with lots of fermatas (pauses where notes are held longer).

We could go on from here. For instance, I've never been clear on the difference between a reel and a breakdown.

Fiddler - Posted - 07/16/2007:  12:26:48

---

I've heard that a breakdown was any energetic tune in 2/4 that was played while repairing a wagon (a breakdown) on the trail. I don't have any documentation for this, though.

Allanadale, you did a great job of trying to explain the differences. Thanks for being brave! I'll add my two cents...

A hornpipe is a lilting tune with dotted 8th or 16th notes. (Think Sailor's Hornpipe and Popeye!) Another characteristic of hornpipes is that the ending measure is two or three notes. Again, think Sailor's or Fisher's Hornpipes. OT fiddlers have tended to smooth them out.

A reel is typically a faster tempo to match the lively dance it accompanies, e.g Virginia Reel. (Or if you watch the old "Christmas Carol" movie, there is a wonderful scene at Fezziwig's where they dance a reel to a 6/8 tune - Sir Roger de Coverly.) The term "reel the set" gives the head couple an opportunity to dance with others in the set, if only for a short moment. The "reel" figure is where the tune classification is derived.

These set dances are choreographed to specific moves or figures, similar to square dances figures, and the phrases of the music indicate when the figures are to occur. A caller or prompter reminds the dancers of the next figure in the sequence and the timing. In OT tradition the phrasing of the music became less important than the beat or rhythm. Some square dances and running sets are done the beat and not the phrase.

Opinion Alert!!!
Personally, I think that we (society in general) have isolated the music from the dance. Unless a fiddler or OT musician plays for dances on a routine basis (and dances as well!!), they really don't understand the music and its purpose. The two are inseparable and one without the other is meaningless!! It is a social activity. To watch a clogging group or square dance group or a contra dance group or even a ballet troupe perform to recorded music is just a travesty. The arguement that is used regrading recorded music is that there are no musicians who can play appropriate tunes or that it's too expensive. To me, that's just a cop-out. I think one of the reasons the "Riverdance" phenomena was so highly successful was that it was done to live music! Additionally, I can't think of any successful dance group, regardless of the genre, that uses only recorded music!! (Ok, now I'm rambling...)

On the other side, many OT musicians don't have the patience to play for a dance! It is work!! There are limitations on the tune selections that are appropriate. Getting the proper tempo. Then, there is the waiting between sets while the next dance is being taught. The musicians are expected to sit quietly and be ready to start playing. Additionally, the musicians are secondary - they are not on stage so that others can see their antics. Their sole purpose is to provide music. A musician looking for a performance venue is not the right person to play for a dance!

It must be Monday. Ok, I'll crawl off my soap box now....





fiddle music - "... it's for the uplifting of people. It's the highest, the most high, most high, most high...'' Marcus Martin

OTJunky - Posted - 07/16/2007:  12:42:02

---

I'm guessing Fiddler will be the one to giive us the real answers on this since his wife's a caller and he plays for lots of organized dances. He's already enlightened me on "Quadrilles" on another thread.

This whole "reel", "hornpipe" naming stuff is pretty much a mess here in the US. In think a "reel" really is a kind of line dance - at least the "Virginia Reel" is. I think there actually is an instrument called a hornpipe in the British Isles made from - you guessed it - a sheep's horn. There's a lot of history embedded in the names of certain tunes and the names have just stuck.

I can say pretty much what really goes on the U.S. though among native fiddlers.

At a fiddle contest in the U. S. the usual thing is the contestants are asked to play three tunes...

1) a "Break Down" or "Hoe Down". The two are synonyms though "Hoe Down" seems to be used more in Texas.

2) a "Tune of Choice"

3) a Waltz

In American fiddling, a Break Down or Hoe Down is used to drive dancers when they're dancing "fast. These tunes need to heard and played up tempo. So, they usually use lot's of double strings - either primes or just two open strings. And they usually involve a lot of rhythmic bowing. You try to do most of the work with the bow because the left hand can tire out pretty quickly of you're trying to do a lot of fancy noting while playing a couple of hours of dance music. One Gold Standard for this kind of playing would be Bob Holt's versions of RattleSnake, or Wolve's a Howlin' or Sally Goodin'.

How fast these tunes are played depends on what region of the country the dance is in. If it's in the Mountains - Ozarks or Appalachians - where the temperature falls at night, the dancers will want to clog or jig-step so you have to play fast.

If it's in Texas where it's still hot at night, the dancers will do the two-step and will want a somewhat slower tempo for the Hoe Down. If they clogged, they'd have to shower between every dance. So a Texas Hoe Down tends to be a bit slower than one played in the Ozarks and the fiddler can be a bit more elaborate with the fingering.

American Fiddlers do play "Hornpipes" for dances - mostly in the regions where the dance tempos are bit slower - meaning in Texas or in the Plains of Missouri. There you find Durangs, Fishers, Rickett's and Marmaduke's hornpipes played - though sometimes Marmaduke's is called a "Reel". For an American fiddler the term "Hornpipe" usually just means a fast tune with lots of notes and arpeggios. Both Fischer's and Durang's are really good examples of this.

Using this definition St. Anne's Reel should probably be called St. Anne's Hornpipe - but it's not because that's not the name it was given by it's original creator. Maybe there really is a dance called the "St. Anne's Reel"? None of these "hornpipes" are played with the "dotted eighth note" feel that's supposed to be used in a classical hornpipe.

So, these tunes serve to break up the monotony of the dance music and are scattered among the Break Downs - but not too often to avoid wearing out the left hand.

Waltzes are, of course, tunes played in 3/4 time while the dancer's dance the Waltz. No mystery here. They need to be syrupy and somewhat corny because in the tradition of all authentic Southern country music, they aren't intended to be enjoyed while sober. This fact is often lost on people who claim the don't appreciate country music.

Finally, the "Tune of Choice" is any one of the hundreds of "novelty tunes" and rags that are embedded in the psyche of most Americans - Ragtime Annie, Cotton Patch rag, Beaumont Rag, Dill Pickle Rag, Logan County Blues, Carrol County Blues. The Novely tune is a category that's supposed to allow the fiddler to show of some skills that wouldn't normally displayed by dance fiddling - though the fiddler's not supposed to "double shuffle" since that technique was invented sometime in the 1940's and isn't thought to be used in authent

OTJunky - Posted - 07/16/2007:  12:53:10

---

quote:

---

Fiddler wrote:
Opinion Alert!!!
Personally, I think that we (society in general) have isolated the music from the dance.

---

Well - that's exactly right.

My own criteria for judging old time fiddling is mostly based on how I think the fiddler could push a long a set of dancers.

I think old time fiddling basically started because people wanted to dance. The violin was small enough and portable enough that you could get it into isolated regions at reasonable cost. It was made of organic stuff so it was easy to repair - or you could even make one. it was loud enough to be heard by a group of dancers. And with the right bowing you can play both the melody and the rhythm at the same time....

The PERFECT instrument for one musician to use in playing for a group of dancers in an isolated region!!!!!!

The only issue is that it's practically impossible to play the thing...

-OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

Rustylee - Posted - 07/16/2007:  13:03:52

---

Thanks folks I think I have a better idea now. A lot of it has to do with regional customs as well. I guess it's like the fiddlesticks thing. I really never knew there was such a thing. that was most enlightening and educational.

Rustylee <><

OTJunky - Posted - 07/16/2007:  14:14:49

---

quote:

---

OTJunky wrote:
I can say pretty much what really goes on the U.S. though among native fiddlers.

---

I guess I should say, for the record, that practically nothing I wrote in that post applies to either Cajun fiddling or ContrDance fiddling - two vibrant traditions that I have great respect for and know next to nothing about.

-OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

Fiddler - Posted - 07/16/2007:  14:46:04

---

I'm by no means a dance expert! I've read much about dance history, particularly from Playford and the dancing masters to Benjamin Lovett, to Lloyd Shaw, to Ricky Holden, etc., but only for personal edification and not for a scholarly study. If have a choice to play for a dance or do a performance, I will almost always choose to play for a dance!!

As OTJunky said

quote:

---

My own criteria for judging old time fiddling is mostly based on how I think the fiddler could push a long a set of dancers.

---

My understanding was that this was the basis for early fiddle contests.

I'm not a contest fiddler or enthusiast either!! Here's what I understand. Maybe there's someone lurking who can correct my misconceptions

Breakdown
Usually one of the top 10 - Grey Eagle, Tom & Jerry, Billy in the Lowground, Sally Goodin, Sally Johnson, Dusty Miller, Leather Britches,etc., but not a requirement, unless that is the rule for the contest. To do well in the scoring, almost always requires playing in 3rd or 5th position.

Tune of Choice
Usually a rag or piece. No pizzicato, trick bowing, etc. An opportunity to demonstrate other musicianship skills that can't be done through the breakdown or waltz.

Waltz
3/4 time

fiddle music - "... it's for the uplifting of people. It's the highest, the most high, most high, most high...'' Marcus Martin

OTJunky - Posted - 07/16/2007:  15:03:18

---

quote:

---

Fiddler wrote:
To do well in the scoring, almost always requires playing in 3rd or 5th position.

---

That would be in a Texas or Missouri contest - right?

It used to be - might still be - that if you got out of first position in a contest in Arkansas, you'd get disqualified...

viva la difference..

-OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"