soppinthegravy - Posted - 10/14/2017:  19:29:16

How many different kinds of dance tunes are there in traditional fiddling? I know of reels, jigs, waltzes, strathspeys, schottisches, polkas, and two-steps.

Edited by - soppinthegravy on 10/14/2017 19:30:17

DougD - Posted - 10/14/2017:  20:19:21

You could add clogs and Varsovienne ("Put your little foot"). Also the Highland Fling if you want to go a little farther afield (there are some in Ryan's) but if you want to go worldwide I'm sure there are many more. And of course Hornpipes, and marches.

Edited by - DougD on 10/14/2017 20:20:45

amwildman - Posted - 10/14/2017:  22:05:51

There are many more if you want to dig deep into the different ethnic traditions. Swedish music has hambo dance (polska). They are popular next to waltzes at the local contra dances.

Add slides to your list of Irish tune types.

gapbob - Posted - 10/15/2017:  07:53:46

Cake walk

March (grand march)



ots of different Scandinavian forms: pols, polska, hambo, brudmarsch, polka, reinlender, snoa, ganglåt, springleik, etc.

Edited by - gapbob on 10/15/2017 07:56:11

soppinthegravy - Posted - 10/16/2017:  11:46:48

How many of these are truly distinct tune types? I'm sure the dance are different, but I'm talking about the tunes themselves. I've read stuff making it sound like hops and schottishes are types of polkas.

Edited by - soppinthegravy on 10/16/2017 11:50:20

sbhikes2 - Posted - 10/16/2017:  13:23:21

How about ragtime? Or is that no longer old-time? There seems to be a point where some ragtime is still old-time.

Paul Gifford - Posted - 10/16/2017:  13:53:39

There is no practical distinction between a schottische and a clog. I just cataloged a large number of fiddlers' recordings from Michigan's Thumb. A lot of what they call schottisches others would call "clogs," if they saw them in a book. The tune "Bonaparte's March," or "Caledonian March," or "Napoleon Crossing the Rhine," was pretty standard in the state, and usually played as a schottische. Old-timers would say a schottische and polka were similar, but as far as I can tell, they are only so because the partner is held in a promenade position.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 10/16/2017:  13:59:30

Too bad that there is not a category that is just called , Contra Dance ..!!

DougD - Posted - 10/16/2017:  15:05:18

Paul, in the Henry Reed collection at the LOC some unnamed tunes are categorized as Scottisches, and others as clogs. I thought this was Alan Jabbour's doing, but listening to a few of the recordings I see that Henry Reed made the distinction himself. I don't know what he based this on, and it's now too late to ask. Certainly the dances are different.

I also wonder if there is really a distinction between reels and breakdowns. They're both in the same meter, but the actual rhythm seems different to me.

amwildman - Posted - 10/16/2017:  17:50:29

In Irish music, there are very few schottisches floating around but they are essentially barndances. Barndance is sort of like a 'straighter', less swung hornpipe.

Paul Gifford - Posted - 10/17/2017:  08:57:41

Doug--- Maybe the presence of triplets makes a tune a "clog." I think the tune "Wilson's Clog" was known pretty widely, at least across much of the North. At the Weiser contest in 1957, it seems that everyone played it as a tune of choice. I knew a guy (born in 1885) who played a tune he called "Hopson's Clog" which may have come from someone with that name. In the Karl Byarski collection, here's one tune I listed as a "clog" at first but changed to "schottische" later: digitalarchives.umflint.edu/cd...194/rec/8

I suppose they adapted the clog for the schottische. Ford Stein's other schottisches include both types.

As far as the distinction between reels and breakdowns (and hornpipes, for that matter) goes, here's my two cents: "breakdown" comes from the term for the jig as danced by slaves in Virginia, reel from the Scottish dance, and hornpipe (in the American sense) as part of a tune name (Fisher's Hornpipe) used originally for country dances (at least Fisher's Hornpipe was, but I don't know why Rickett's Hornpipe and Durang's Hornpipe are the other two main ones). I suspect that "1000 Fiddle Tunes" was influential in defining hornpipes as a type of tune (and reels, for that matter).

Maybe a list might include types of tunes where the distinction is based on history, even if there is no real, practical distinction in the way they are played. For example:

Virginia reel - This would include nearly all 2/4 tunes in Southern tradition: Mississippi Sawyer, Fire on the Mountain, Arkansas Traveler, etc. In the 18th and early 19th centuries, the "Virginia jig" was a step dance for one or two people blending African and British traditions; "breakdown" comes from that. The last change of a square dance in the North was called a "jig" or a "breakdown" (both in 2/4).

Country dance - Tunes (mostly 2/4, but maybe also in 6/8) originally associated with particular "country dances" (now called contra dances): Money Musk, Fisher's Hornpipe, Opera Reel, etc.

Jigs - Tunes (6/8) from Irish, English, or Scottish traditions used for square dancing (Northern U.S.) and a bit in the South: Haste to the Wedding, Larry O'Gaff, etc.

Quadrilles - Tunes, almost always nameless (6/8) traditionally played as the first and/or second change of square dances in the northern U.S. and Canada (though modern tunes in Canada now have names and are called "jigs"). The origins are totally obscure, but they may have been modeled on French cotillion/quadrille tunes.

Then you can get into round dances (schottisches, polkas, varsovienne (which is same as waltz), and more modern dances. I don't know how widespread the whole "modern and old-time" dance configuration was, but in Michigan anyway, fiddlers active at dances in most of the 20th century played a lot of fox trots, both slow and fast. The distinction between two-steps, one-steps, and three-steps got lost along the way. Most country-western hits or later pop hits (Please Release Me, Tiny Bubbles, etc.) fit into this rhythm, too. But I suppose in the South this "modern" aspect was not found so much, except maybe in radio-oriented listening situations.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 10/18/2017:  07:22:26

Uncle Jimmy Thompson calls this "a fine quadrille". youtube.com/watch?v=WkFk9m0h6a8

At the start of this recording, although it's trimmed off on this copy, Dave Macon says "Get your partners for your quadrille". slippery-hill.com/recording/sleepy-lou-0

I've seen Flop Eared Mule listed as one. Did some folks use the terms reel and quadrille interchangeably? 

Fiddler - Posted - 10/18/2017:  08:26:53

Reel and quadrille interchangeable terms?? NO!! Flop-eared Mule as a quadrille?? I've never run into this, but it may be possible. However, it (FEM) is frequently played as a schottishe.

Reels are always 2/2, 2/4 or Common time.

Quadrilles are actually a set of 5 separate figures and tunes. Lancer's Quadrille is one that is still popular. Why even Lewis Carroll wrote the Lobster Quadrille in Alice in Wonderland. Herny Ford's "Good Morning" contained several quadrilles.

Part 1: 2/4 or 6/8
Part 2: always 2/4
Part 3: always 6/8
Part 4: always 2/4
Part 5: always 2/4

Several old-timers I knew in the Ozarks, referred to any 6/8 tune as a quadrille. My guess is that the First or Third figures were the most popular part of the dance and the tune was retained.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 10/18/2017:  08:46:37

It's odd that Uncle Dave says "quadrille". I thought Sleepy Lou was a rag.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/18/2017:  09:11:47

It may be that Flop-eared Mule was the tune for one of the figures of a popular quadrille. If that's the case, then Uncle Dave's use of the term "quadrille" is proper. After a little digging, I found that FEM is sometimes called the D&A Quadrille. Also, "quadrille" and "cotillion" were somewhat generic terms for a dance.

Paul Gifford - Posted - 10/18/2017:  12:42:01

"Quadrille" means square dance. There are traditionally three changes or figures (not five, although the earliest ones, 1820-1850, did). By 1860 or so, it seems that three was normal. Both 6/8 and 2/4 tunes were traditionally used. A lot of the early ones, 6/8 and 2/4 alternate. So "quadrille" for a 6/8 tune is not really accurate, because 2/4 tunes are also quadrille tunes. On the other hand, there are enough nameless 6/8 tunes with enough characteristics to set them apart from jigs.

Lancer's Quadrille was a complicated 51/2 change quadrille. Here is the tune for the traditional second change: digitalarchives.umflint.edu/cd...203/rec/1

Flop-Eared Mule was originally the Detroit Schottische, written and published by Adam Couse in 1850. It supposedly sold 100,000 copies. Here is a 1950s recording of a bar band from Cass City, Michigan, playing it: digitalarchives.umflint.edu/cd...d/3/rec/1

DougD - Posted - 10/18/2017:  12:58:59

Paul beat me to it, and knows more about this than I do, but I think Uncle Dave was just using an old fashioned word for "square dance," and then he proceeds to holler out some calls.

I first heard of the "Virginia Jig" in Kate van Winkle Keller's book "Dance and it's Music in America." It would seem to be one of the origins of "buck dancing" and also breakdancing, as in "break it down, break it down."

Edited by - DougD on 10/18/2017 12:59:28

Fiddler - Posted - 10/18/2017:  13:18:11

Paul - thanks for the clarification. I have danced as many as six changes for a quadrille and as few as three. I'm thinking of Henry Ford's "Good Morning" which had several quadrilles with instructions and the associated tunes. I'll need to look at my copy to see how many changes - but I think most had 5. (My memory is getting to be like a sieve!) I'll post a follow-up.

Also, yes, "quadrille" = square dance. I've heard that quite a bit down south.

Thanks for the links! Cool recordings.