Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/4585
Sue B. - Posted - 08/31/2008: 17:21:37
I had a very short lesson with Tracey Schwarz, who said he thought my bowing, I think mainly a seconding pattern, looked like Galax bowing. Got some good instruction, but had no time to ask further about that. If you happen to know what that looks or sounds like, I'd be glad to know. If it's anything you can spell out in downs & ups or rhythmic notation, all the better. Thanks, Sue B.
OTJunky - Posted - 08/31/2008: 18:35:29
If you want the definitive source, you can go listen to the sound clip of "Cotton Eyed Joe" from the CD
"FRC309– Galax Gems - The Music of Galax in the 1960s"
at
http://www.fieldrecorder.com/docs/store.htm
Then, if you like it, buy the CD from'em. It's a great site for OT fiddle recordings and it's a good thing to support it.
If you want to hear - and see - something more current, you can watch Benton Flippen's band warming up for the Galax contest in this recent FHO media post...
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhang...atID=&id=524
The tune is "June Apple"
A lot of OT fiddlers want to play this way, but can't. So good for you if you can do it without even knowing what it is. 
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 08/31/2008 19:32:09
bsed - Posted - 08/31/2008: 19:03:39
Find all the U-Tube videos of Tommy Jarrell. There are several, I believe. Stereotypical Galax style.
Now maybe somebody could elaborate about exactly what's going on with the bow (like Brad Leftwich or Doug D on this forum), but I don't think that would be good enough. PLaying in the Galax/Round Peak style involves a certain attitude, if you will. Just like playing any other style involves an attitude, which you put in your tool box with all your other fiddling skills and all your past experiences of playing the music by yourself and with other people.
Just call me Dwight.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/31/2008: 20:21:00
quote:
Originally posted by Sue B.
I had a very short lesson with Tracey Schwarz, who said he thought my bowing, I think mainly a seconding pattern, looked like Galax bowing. Got some good instruction, but had no time to ask further about that. If you happen to know what that looks or sounds like, I'd be glad to know. If it's anything you can spell out in downs & ups or rhythmic notation, all the better. Thanks, Sue B.
Perhaps you could get Tracey to clarify what he means by that.
I've never heard the term before.
I dislike geographical terms for bowings,
since it's just a mathematical pattern that can just as well be used halfway across the world.
Fer instance, there are Scottish tunes written in about 1750 or so
where the melody forces the bow into a classic "Nashville" pattern- probably before the city even existed.
Somehow referring to a Scottish fiddler using Nashville Shuffle
seems bizarre.
Eh, sorry for the rant- not directed at you!
If you are bold enough to post a clear recording, or especially a video,
I could take a crack at analyzing what you're doing.
I find a lot of shuffles make great accompaniment patterns in addition to phrasing complex melody lines.
Surprisingly enough, I use what I call Syncoshuffle (and Brad Leftwich calls Tommy's Shuffle) for seconding, for Tommy Jarrell tunes (just posted a medley of them) and...
Fisher's Hornpipe! And for many things in between.
And, by the way, until I get further info,that's a good a guess as any as to what Galax bowing is.
1-2-1-2-1-1
DUuD UuDU
Michael
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/31/2008: 20:26:23
BTW- Sue-
Welcome to the Fiddle Hangout!
You realize, don't you, that you are throwing gasoline on the smoldering embers
of the bowing discussions, don't you?
For background, check out the granddaddy of all the bowing threads on the Fiddle Hangout.
Dave Reiner shares a long list of patterns, then I throw in a few more.
Maybe you can find your pattern in here:
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/forum/...ns,enjoyment
Michael
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 08/31/2008 20:27:55
DougD - Posted - 08/31/2008: 22:25:17
bsed, I'm one of those whose eyes glaze over with descriptions of bowing, so I won't be much help. I don't know what Tracy meant, but I also think of some other Galax fiddlers like Uncle Charlie Higgins, Norman Edmonds, Emmett Lundy, Kahle Brewer, Whit Sizemore... maybe not quite the same as people like Tommy Jarrell.
OTJ - Thats a great clip - I love those bands with the picked banjo. Another distinctive Galax sound, like the Mountain Ramblers.
A couple other good records would be: http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdet...x?itemid=591
and: http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdet...x?itemid=513
Edited by - DougD on 09/01/2008 08:56:50
Sue B. - Posted - 09/01/2008: 07:03:44
Thanks for all the leads. My ancient computer (and rural dial-up), make streaming anything problematic to impossible, but I'll see what I can do. I play mostly Cajun and listen to that obsessively. I have had lessons with Brad Leftwich among others, so maybe there's a tie-in there. I come from a long history of classical playing, and have noticed that some old-time players use bowings that feel like current practice among players of Baroque music to me, so could be applying something accidently there, too. Sue
rcc - Posted - 09/01/2008: 08:38:02
I agree with Doug. I think Galax and Round Peak are different rythmically. Round Peak is more syncopated, tends to be more stripped down melody-wise, and therefore the bowing is likely to be different.
I think Tommy's bowing in particular is going to be very different from Galax but then Tommy's bowing is different from most of the Round Peak players of his generation given his extreme and varied use of bow-rocking.
Edited by - rcc on 09/01/2008 08:39:20
OTJunky - Posted - 09/01/2008: 09:43:03
Who - other than Tommy Jarrell - was or is a "Round Peak" fiddler?
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
DougD - Posted - 09/01/2008: 09:57:17
I don't know exactly - Fred Cockerham, Kyle Creed, Earnest East, Ben Jarrell, maybe Benton Flippen? Of course there's maybe a little Arthur Smith thrown in here and there too!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/01/2008: 10:10:30
quote:
Originally posted by rcc
I agree with Doug. I think Galax and Round Peak are different rythmically. Round Peak is more syncopated, tends to be more stripped down melody-wise, and therefore the bowing is likely to be different.
I think Tommy's bowing in particular is going to be very different from Galax but then Tommy's bowing is different from most of the Round Peak players of his generation given his extreme and varied use of bow-rocking.
I tend to agree- but hesitated since it was more of a hunch...
I'm not that familiar with Galax fiddling.
I was however very familiar with the Galax banjo player Wade Ward-
and his playing sounds very "straight" rhythmically compared to Round Peak banjo playing.
I do tend to agree that in some respects Tommy Jarrell represents the extreme of Round Peak, not the typical.
In the cut OTJ gave us the link to, the fiddling sounds fairly straight-
EXCEPT I think I detect one very Jarrell-esque feature-
I think I hear that distinctive "leading the beat" slur that was so
much a part of Tommy's style.
And actually, a superficial listen to that cut reminds me some of Benton Flippen, who is "Round Peak"...
so maybe the core of the two areas is similar-
which wouldn't be surprising since for many years the Galax convention was the one the North Carolinians in that area went to-
I heard Tommy and Fred jamming and carrying on around the animal pens in 1976. If your competing at the same contests, there
HAS to be some imitation going on as people see what wins with the same set of judges.
Michael
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
musekatcher - Posted - 09/01/2008: 11:53:33
I dig the term. It can be found outside Galax too. Its an old style, that I like, and is very compelling. Seeing it is important. Check out the Slate Mountain Ramblers for a visual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA4Ew6cXByo
Dang I wish my hand wasn't bandaged up. I'm frisky to fiddle.
Jim Holland
Athens, AL
bsed - Posted - 09/01/2008: 14:28:50
If there is a "Galax style" of fiddling, I suspect it has more to do with repertoire than a particular pattern of up & down bowing. I spent a lot of time with Richard Bowman at Galax and I don't think he's doing anything radically different than what I do on a lot of the tunes he played.
And I should probably correct myself if I referred to Round Peak fiddling, because Round Peak really is a banjo term, referring to a particular way of sliding and playing fretless and with a scooped fingerboard and stuff like that.
Just call me Dwight.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/02/2008: 09:16:38
quote:
Originally posted by Sue B.
I come from a long history of classical playing, and have noticed that some old-time players use bowings that feel like current practice among players of Baroque music to me, so could be applying something accidently there, too. Sue
Wasn't it during the Baroque period that the violin spread all over Europe? And don't many fiddle tunes have streams of notes similar
to Baroque music? Couldn't some fiddle techniques in say, Scotland,
have been taken from Baroque music and passed on over the years?
I'm thinking of people like Niel Gow. Niel Gow was a pivotal figure in Scottish fiddling, and many of the tunes he wrote became popular in the U.S.-could he have passed on techniques as well that spread over here? I found a medley in a midi collection labelled Virginia Reels, and they were essentially re-labelled Scottish tunes on the order of Leather Breeches/Lord McDonalds.
I wish you would clarify exactly what techniques you see as being similar.
I suspect it has something to do with sawstroke.
It seems Old Timers a hundred years ago were very comfortable with it, and whatever other bowings they used were phrased to fit in with and complement sawstroke passages.
Revival fiddlers as a whole seem less comfortable with sawstroke,
although there are exceptions, like the Rickett's Hornpipe video Doug D. posted a few days ago.
Michael
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
Sue B. - Posted - 09/02/2008: 11:26:18
Hi, Here are two common Baroque patterns for quick tempo pieces that pop right to mind. There are some Handel Sonata mvmts. that sound SO like Irish jigs. A recommended bowing goes D(d)uD(d)uD(d)uD-u
with D(d) standing for a slur of two eighth notes in triplet patterns. And then there's ubiqutious D ud U du, which is essentially a common shuffle bow, (an eighth & 2 sixteenths), but a long distance traveled for the 8ths, and little bitties for the 16ths. Sue
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/06/2008: 04:10:34
Thanks, Sue!
We had several classical albums when I was a kid. 1 Mozart, Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker, and I think some Stravinsky and Moussorgski that I didn't like.
I studied classical guitar in my teens. Sometime during my fifteen year fiddle-less phase
when I was actually earning comparatively decent money for once in my life, I started collecting classical albums,
usually $5 CDs you could find in the bargain bins at Wal-Mart or Circuit City,performed
by lesser known Eastern European orchestras. I confirmed to myself that I liked nearly everything up to and including Mozart, and very little after that.
And I've been aware of the resemblance between Baroque music and fiddle tunes for some time. I could almost imagine myself playing Baroque violin.
For instance, I really like O'Carolan tunes, which seem to be going in that direction.
Michael
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
Jonny A - Posted - 09/08/2008: 13:39:34
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
Who - other than Tommy Jarrell - was or is a "Round Peak" fiddler?
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
OJT, Doug D answered, and those are the other names I would give.
In my opinion, the best place to hear them all in one place is here:
http://www.countysales.com/php-bin/...duct_id=1739
bsed - Posted - 09/08/2008: 17:23:42
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
I don't know exactly - Fred Cockerham, Kyle Creed, Earnest East, Ben Jarrell, maybe Benton Flippen? Of course there's maybe a little Arthur Smith thrown in here and there too!
OK, but what does it mean to be a Round Peak fiddler? Is it a matter of repertoire or is there a characteristic of the tunes? I heard someone suggest they may be more pared down, but I don't think that's just limited to Round Peak. Can we do better?Just call me Dwight.
Jonny A - Posted - 09/09/2008: 18:18:52
quote:
bsed wrote:
OK, but what does it mean to be a Round Peak fiddler? Is it a matter of repertoire or is there a characteristic of the tunes? I heard someone suggest they may be more pared down, but I don't think that's just limited to Round Peak. Can we do better?
Just call me Dwight.
Hi George. I am no authority, and only answer based on what I have learned from those who know better than me.
The Round Peak style of fiddle (and banjo, and song) is very distinctive, and easy to identify once you get it into your bones.
These days, unfortunately, it's the name of at least 2 styles.
In the historical sense (for almost all of its main exponents have passed away), it was the the style of the many musicians who lived in and around Round Peak, at the foot of Fisher's Peak, in Surry County, northwestern North Carolina. These musicians, over generations, developed a style of fiddle and banjo duet playing that is intricate and tightly coupled, a driving string band style, a tradition of fiddle accompanied singing, and others.
Though each artist had his own sound, to quote Brad Leftwich, "as a group they sound more like each other than any of them sounds like someone from another musical community." He is writing here about banjo players, but the same holds true for the fiddlers.
In general terms, the fiddling is characterized by syncopated, pulse-driven slurring, the near constant use of drone strings, non-standard tunings, most commonly AEAE, ADAE, GDAD and DDAD (and at least one notable instance of GDAE), and a particular repertoire.
As with all things, the easiest way to understand it is to live with it for a while. Because the style has garnered so much attention from so many for so long, there are a lot of great recordings, videos and writings on the subject.
The Appalachian State University has a page on the subject, and cites the following references, all worth finding:
Alden, Ray. "Music from the Round Peak." Old Time Music . 19 (1975/1976): 8-16. ASU APP COLL OVSZ ML 1. O53
Camp Creek Boys. Old-Time Sting Band . County CD 2719, 1997. ASU APP COLL CD CDisc 129
Ernest East . Videocassette. Johnson City, Tennessee: Broadside Press, 1974. ASU APP COLL VIDEO VC 407
Gates, David. "Pickin' On Tommy's Porch." Newsweek . 17 September 1984, 78.
ASU PERIODICALS
Jarrell, Tommy. Sail Away Ladies . County 756,1976. ASU APP COLL REC ML 3545. A317 Rec# 332.
Legends of Old Time Music . Videocassette. Cambridge, MA: Rounder and Vestapool, 1995. ASU APP COLL VIDEO VC 132
Music in the Old Time Way: Traditional Music and Musicians from the Southern Appalachians . Videocassette. Dir. Philip S. Morgan.1986. 60 minutes. ASU APP COLL VIDEO VC 142.
Neithammer, Nancy Dols. "Tommy Jarrell's Family Stories 1830-1925, Part 1." Old Time Herald . 3 (1991): 22-29. ASU APP COLL STACK ML 1. O35
Neithammer, Nancy Dols. "Tommy Jarrell's Family Stories 1830-1925, Part 2." Old Time Herald . 3 (1991). ASU APP COLL STACK ML 1. O35
Sprout Wings and Fly . Videotape. Prod. Cece Conway. El Cerrito, CA: Flower Films, 1983. ASU APP COLL VC 83
Round Peak style fiddling is sometimes confused with Galax syle fiddling. The two regions are only a few miles apart, but it was apparently not an easy journey from one to the other until the early 1900s, and their styles are distinct.
More recently, "Round Peak" has become a sort of catchall phrase to refer to a very broad style of old time performance that encompasses many regional styles, as well as elements of other genres like bluegrass or pre-bluegrass country. This moniker seems to have become somewhat controversial, with some people rightly objecting to it (though, in my opinion, for the wrong reasons) and disputing the existence of the Round Peak style altogether.
Many people have tirelessly learned, recorded, documented and preserved the original style, as well as Incorporated the techniques and spirit into their own performances. I, for one, think that before we rush to judgment, we should take the time to understand this great piece of cultural heritage on its own terms.
Jon
Edited by - Jonny A on 09/09/2008 18:23:22
