abinigia - Posted - 10/09/2016:  10:27:04

I’d like to hear about your experiences in playing contra dances.  I was once told by a player I respect that playing for contra dances is a real good way to learn your instrument, and I agree with that.

I live in an area where it seems like there aren’t too many real active contra dancers, just regular folks out for a good time. I haven’t played too many - with my current band we played our 2nd one in a year last night. From what I am told the real contra enthusiasts like to dance 115-120bpm, and that’s where the caller was driving us last night.

My band consists of 4 other guys who can’t really play fiddle tunes that fast so it is my responsibility to play each tune relentlessly for the 8 or 9 minutes the caller has us go for, while they back me with rhythm (which they can do). We play some somewhat obscure old time tunes I’ve learned, plus more common tunes like Bill Cheatum, Squirrel Hunters, Kitchen Girl, New Five Cent Piece, Saint Anne’s Reel, and Salt Creek.

I wish the other instruments could step forward for some choruses and give me time to get my bearings once in awhile but I have to play non-stop, holding on by the skin of my teeth.

I’m aware there’s an active contra dance scene in some areas, and that there are music books full of common tunes and arrangements. Is there a typical Contra dance scene or does it vary widely depending on where you live? What tempos are you used to playing for these dances? How long does a dance last?

amwildman - Posted - 10/09/2016:  11:08:29

I'm not a ppayer, but ive danced a few. Typical pace is 110+, but that depends on the dancers. If there are a bunch of new people keep it slower. But don't slow down too much or you will bore the experienced dancers. I've been at 130+ dances and they were insane, but some dancers loved it. Start slower and get a feel for the dancers and adjust accordingly.

Play less notey tunes, as well as jigs, marches, polkas etc. Branch out from the typical OT tunes. Contra has heavy Irish and Scottish elements. The Portland books have a good variety to choose from, but they are far from definitive. It's also ok to leave out ornaments and such. Your fingers will thank you.

And last but not least, get out as a dancer to other contras. It helps immensely with your perspective.

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/09/2016:  13:21:43

 I have been playing one or two dances a month for about a year now.  They are always a mix of new and experienced dancers and there have been three callers for all but the one that was part of the National Square Dance Association's conference (a pre-conference contra with a number of callers from the Cotralab group).  The bands are always three piece and have mostly been fiddle (me), banjo (one of two players I know), and guitar (two regulars) - there were two odd bands out, one fiddle-fiddle-guitar and one fiddle-[mandolin/tenor banjo]-bass (just last night).  I don't usually get a break from melody other than a rare once through with banjo, and as long as I keep up my regular practice/playing schedule throughout the month, it is not a problem.  That said, the last two months have been overly busy and I did not play fiddle much between dances (three total) so there was a bit of protest from my shoulder/upper back after the first and last of the three dances.  No big whoop just a reminder that, like running, playing for a dance is a physical activity and the muscles require regular use to avoid injury. 

The nights usually start with some beginner friendly mixer dances and thus are a slower tempo (not going to assign numbers other than to say we mostly play less than 120 and average 115 just based on some metronome rehearsal and referencing).  About halfway through we are playing about as fast as the dancers would ever want to go; the callers have always commented "nice tempo" and only twice has the caller asked for a different speed - once when I started a jig set very fast out of habit and the other time it was because the dancers just weren't getting the dance.  Once we get to the evening's peak tempo, it seems there soon follows a break in the action.  After the break and at the end of the night there is a waltz usually - this is where I am very limited in repertoire but only need two really. 

The music is mostly a mix of reels - old time and Canadian - with a few jig sets thrown in.  I think it has improved my groove and offers up the freedom to work out variations on the fly.  One particular incarnation of the band (Jon Duvick on guitar and Merle Hall on banjo) is a dream to play in.  They are seasoned contra players and both very creative and tasteful players.  We play around with stripping the melody and grooving while the melody is still implied. There are some fun tension/release things that Jon does using chords that lie on the outside of the tune.  Since everyone I've played with is involved in other groups, I really need to find some dedicated players to develop the type of thing that I have with Jon and Merle.  Did I mention how awesome they are?

Ultimately, I've really only wanted to be a dance fiddler from the get go so I feel like I'm living the dream.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/09/2016:  18:01:25

I'll reply with some more details later, but here in Dallas at the North Texas Traditional Dance Society contra dances,

* tempos run around 115-120 bpm

* dances last anywhere from 7 minutes to 15 minutes - depends on how much fun the dancers are having!

* tune repertoire ranges from appropriate OT to celtic to traditional New England contra dane tune repertoire

When I play, I usually plan at least one change tune, but frequently I don't change because either I have gone brain dead and can't remember how to get into the next tune, or, more frequently, the first tune works so well for the dance that changing tunes will disrupt the dance itself. My band mates understand this and just follow my lead.

gapbob - Posted - 10/10/2016:  06:53:09

Never had a 15 minute dance, ten is uaually considered quite long.  Playing for dances is great as it gives a reason to practice and learn tunes.  Dancers tend to like simpler tunes, unless you play quite well.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/10/2016:  07:58:00

Tune collections and repertoires:

If you are not familiar with appropriate tunes for a contra dance, there are several tune collections out there that will guide you.

New England Repertoire - common tunes played for dances in New England. The recordings New England Chestnuts I  & II are outstanding resources for recordings of those tunes. Clear, well-phrased and tempo-appropriate. There are other recordings, but these were important to me as I learned to play for dances.

Portland Collection - a good collection of transcriptions "rounded out" and appropriate for contra dances. They are a good starting point to get everyone on the same page musically.

There are others, but I would focus on these two as a starting point. 

Some OT tunes will work for contra dances if they are the proper structure and have good phrasing. 32 bar AABB structure with either 2 or 4 bar phrases.

Note that many contra dances and callers will include other dance forms such as schottishes, hambos, polkas, polskas, English country dances and tunes, waltzes, singing and pattern called square dances that require special tunes, rags (Levi Jackson Rag comes to mind), many Pat Shaw tunes and dances, etc. They will also include jigs (6/8). A good contra dance musician will be able to do most of these. There is also a movement in contra dancing to move away from traditional music for the dances. Some contra dances are using techno-pop music, strobes, special lighting effects. Yes, it's weird, but the kids seem to like it. I find that it is an interesting blend of pop culture with community/social dancing.

Tune Selection

Some callers will offer tune suggestions for a dance or will ask for a specific tune. If suggestions are offered, those are tunes that worked particularly well in the past for that dance for that caller. If it is a specific tune, that contra was written to use that tune or that tune was historically used for that dance. For example, dancing Petronella to anything but the tune "Petronella" is not quite right. Same with Money Musk, Chorus Jig, etc. Another example are Levi Jackson Rag and Walpole Cottage which have special dances specifically for that tune.

If the caller does suggest tunes, an experienced caller can usually help you identify appropriate tunes. 

Tempo

The tempo for most contra dance tunes is around 120 bpm - a brisk walking pace. Faster than that, dancers are running. Slower than 120, the dancers are dragging.  It is important to both watch the dancers and watch the caller. The caller will usually be the one to indicate to the musicians if the tempo is too fast or too slow. The band should be able to adjust their tempo in both directions.

My Personal Philosophy about Playing for Dances

A contra dance is a three way partnership between the caller, musicians and dancers. In a successful dance it is the music that drives the dance - not the caller and not the dancers. The caller must do a good job in teaching the dance and prompting. The teaching must be quick and start the dance soon. If the dance is too complicated or not taught well, the teaching takes too long and every gets bored and/or frustrated for everyone. A good caller will have the dance started within a few minutes. The caller must then pay attention to the flow during the dance. Is the tempo right? Are the dancers on time with the figures? Are there problems? 

The musicians must be ready to play. They must have an appropriate tune (or tunes) ready. They must also keep the "noodling" and talking down while the dance is being taught. That background noise is distracting to the caller and the dancers.  

Playing for a dance IS NOT JAMMING!!! Yes, it is work, but it can be exhilarating at the same time. If the music is right for the dance and the caller has done a good job teaching, the caller will typically back away from the prompting and let the music take over the dance. Yes, it is the phrasing of the music that directs the figures. This is when the dance is fun - for everyone!

So, paying attention to the dancers, caller and other band members is important. This is one reason I do not like using sheet music at dances. I miss out and give up my responsibility as a musician

Personally, I would rather play for a contra/square dance than anything thing else musically. I enjoy seeing the dancers move to the music I am creating. If I do my job right and chose a tune that really works for the dance, the dance is a success.

Finally, I believe that to be a good dance musician, you must also dance. I know some musicians HATE dancing and some can't do it for physical limitations. The dancers will respond to you differently if they know that you also dance. My wife and I occasionally go to a contra dance. It's my opportunity to dance to someone else's music, as well as a chance to dance with my wife. (It's how we met!) I hear new tunes and new approaches to familiar tunes. I get a better sense for tempo and phrasing. I get a sense of the various figures and how the phrasing can lead dancers into and through the figure.I can FEEL what tunes work. So, yes, I am, and will be, a strong advocate that musicians should also dance!

The bottom line is to have fun. Enjoy the experience.

Edited by - Fiddler on 10/10/2016 08:15:43

jefferylong - Posted - 10/10/2016:  08:47:43

Do you have links to these collections?

---

Originally posted by Fiddler

 

Tune collections and repertoires:

If you are not familiar with appropriate tunes for a contra dance, there are several tune collections out there that will guide you.

New England Repertoire - common tunes played for dances in New England. The recordings New England Chestnuts I  & II are outstanding resources for recordings of those tunes. Clear, well-phrased and tempo-appropriate. There are other recordings, but these were important to me as I learned to play for dances.

Portland Collection - a good collection of transcriptions "rounded out" and appropriate for contra dances. They are a good starting point to get everyone on the same page musically.

There are others, but I would focus on these two as a starting point. 

Some OT tunes will work for contra dances if they are the proper structure and have good phrasing. 32 bar AABB structure with either 2 or 4 bar phrases.

Note that many contra dances and callers will include other dance forms such as schottishes, hambos, polkas, polskas, English country dances and tunes, waltzes, singing and pattern called square dances that require special tunes, rags (Levi Jackson Rag comes to mind), many Pat Shaw tunes and dances, etc. They will also include jigs (6/8). A good contra dance musician will be able to do most of these. There is also a movement in contra dancing to move away from traditional music for the dances. Some contra dances are using techno-pop music, strobes, special lighting effects. Yes, it's weird, but the kids seem to like it. I find that it is an interesting blend of pop culture with community/social dancing.

Tune Selection

Some callers will offer tune suggestions for a dance or will ask for a specific tune. If suggestions are offered, those are tunes that worked particularly well in the past for that dance for that caller. If it is a specific tune, that contra was written to use that tune or that tune was historically used for that dance. For example, dancing Petronella to anything but the tune "Petronella" is not quite right. Same with Money Musk, Chorus Jig, etc. Another example are Levi Jackson Rag and Walpole Cottage which have special dances specifically for that tune.

If the caller does suggest tunes, an experienced caller can usually help you identify appropriate tunes. 

Tempo

The tempo for most contra dance tunes is around 120 bpm - a brisk walking pace. Faster than that, dancers are running. Slower than 120, the dancers are dragging.  It is important to both watch the dancers and watch the caller. The caller will usually be the one to indicate to the musicians if the tempo is too fast or too slow. The band should be able to adjust their tempo in both directions.

My Personal Philosophy about Playing for Dances

A contra dance is a three way partnership between the caller, musicians and dancers. In a successful dance it is the music that drives the dance - not the caller and not the dancers. The caller must do a good job in teaching the dance and prompting. The teaching must be quick and start the dance soon. If the dance is too complicated or not taught well, the teaching takes too long and every gets bored and/or frustrated for everyone. A good caller will have the dance started within a few minutes. The caller must then pay attention to the flow during the dance. Is the tempo right? Are the dancers on time with the figures? Are there problems? 

The musicians must be ready to play. They must have an appropriate tune (or tunes) ready. They must also keep the "noodling" and talking down while the dance is being taught. That background noise is distracting to the caller and the dancers.  

Playing for a dance IS NOT JAMMING!!! Yes, it is work, but it can be exhilarating at the same time. If the music is right for the dance and the caller has done a good job teaching, the caller will typically back away from the prompting and let the music take over the dance. Yes, it is the phrasing of the music that directs the figures. This is when the dance is fun - for everyone!

So, paying attention to the dancers, caller and other band members is important. This is one reason I do not like using sheet music at dances. I miss out and give up my responsibility as a musician

Personally, I would rather play for a contra/square dance than anything thing else musically. I enjoy seeing the dancers move to the music I am creating. If I do my job right and chose a tune that really works for the dance, the dance is a success.

Finally, I believe that to be a good dance musician, you must also dance. I know some musicians HATE dancing and some can't do it for physical limitations. The dancers will respond to you differently if they know that you also dance. My wife and I occasionally go to a contra dance. It's my opportunity to dance to someone else's music, as well as a chance to dance with my wife. (It's how we met!) I hear new tunes and new approaches to familiar tunes. I get a better sense for tempo and phrasing. I get a sense of the various figures and how the phrasing can lead dancers into and through the figure.I can FEEL what tunes work. So, yes, I am, and will be, a strong advocate that musicians should also dance!

The bottom line is to have fun. Enjoy the experience.

---

abinigia - Posted - 10/10/2016:  09:41:18

Thanks for all the good information!

Fiddler - Posted - 10/10/2016:  11:11:08

Here are links to the resources I mentioned. I have no financial interest in these books/recordings.

New England Fiddler's Repertorie

amazon.com/England-Fiddlers-Re...977053067

Portland Collection (There are 3 volumes)

amazon.com/Portland-Collection...965747646

New England Chestnuts

itunes.apple.com/us/album/new-...212625534

Also, visit the Country Song and Dance Society website (cdss.org) for more information about contra dancing. They do have an on-line store with many more resources.

jefferylong - Posted - 10/10/2016:  11:26:20

Kirk. . .
Thanks for the links

abinigia - Posted - 10/10/2016:  14:05:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddler

 

Here are links to the resources I mentioned. I have no financial interest in these books/recordings.

New England Fiddler's Repertorie

amazon.com/England-Fiddlers-Re...977053067

Portland Collection (There are 3 volumes)

amazon.com/Portland-Collection...965747646

New England Chestnuts

itunes.apple.com/us/album/new-...212625534

 

---

Supposing you could only afford one of these, which would your choose?

Fiddler - Posted - 10/10/2016:  15:03:44

Only one?

 Printed (dots) - New England Fiddler's Repertorie

Audio - New England Chestnuts

I only got the Portland books fairly recently. So, I am very partial to the others resources since those were a big part of my learning experiences!

Edited by - Fiddler on 10/10/2016 15:05:44

sellis - Posted - 10/11/2016:  10:06:17

I speak from limited experience, but I will give some background.

I live in SE Michigan and play 5-string banjo regularly with one contradance band and have played the last two years for an annual charity dance.  My regular band, Flint Homegrown Contraband, was formed about 3 years ago by people involved in the Flint Contra Dance Society.  I joined them about 2 1/2 years later.  About the same time I volunteered for a pickup band to play for the annual Valentine's Day charity dance put on by the Oakland County Traditional Dance Society.  The latter is helmed each year by Judi Morningstar, a well-known hammered dulcimer player and composer of contradance music, whose husband is also well-known as a contradance caller.   My first exposure to a contra dance was with the latter group and it was a wonderful baptism.  Since then I have played for the same dance in 2016, plus 9 dances with FHC, 2 for FCDS, 2 for the OCTDS and 5 more special events put on to attract new dancers.

In that somewhat limited experience I don't believe we have ever played a reel slower than ~106 nor faster than 120 bpm.  Jigs would also be in the same range, although a jig at 120 would frequently have half again as many notes.  One caller wanted a schottische, but I do not remember the speed, plus I have never danced a schottische except on skates.  The dances usually go for an hour plus, break, then another hour plus,  with a waltz before the break and at the end.  There is some controversy about waltz speed.  In FHC many of the people like slow, but as a pretty good casual ballroom dancer in my youth I like a little faster because you can dance with more flourish.  For both bands we usually play a medley of 2 tunes per dance, frequently changing keys (within limits: major to minor, 2 keys that work OK on banjo), or going from a jig to a reel or vice versa.  The dances are usually 5-8 mins and the band leader and caller work out when to change, so we usually have 6 medleys per half, but frequently drop out one medley per half depending on how long it takes to teach the dance.  Both bands played about 3 times as many reels as jigs.  Since most bands in Michigan seem to center on hammered dulcimer the most common keys are G and D, so I carry 2 banjos tuned to play in those keys.

Both groups depend mostly on Judi Morningstar's _The_Ruffwater_Fakebook_2014_.  It has a good selection of trad Southern  fiddle tunes, some Irish and French tunes and new tunes composed by Judi and a few others.  It is spiral bound and most pages are arranged so that the 4 tunes that are usually visible fit well together in any combination.  There are separate reel and jig sections, with about 110 reels and a few schottisches in the reel section, and 52 jigs.  Most tunes are 32 bars, with at least one 48-bar piece, Ragtime Annie.  Many tunes that many fiddlers and banjos traditionally play in A are transposed to G to better suit the HD.  Judi sells it for $25 plus shipping at her website judimorningstar.com/music-order-blank.html .

Fiddler - Posted - 10/11/2016:  11:14:56

Stew - small world!! My wife has friends in Grand Blanc - she grew up in Flint and lived in Detroit. We visited there last year. Also, Glenn and Judy M. are good friends!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/11/2016:  15:59:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by abinigia

 

I’m aware there’s an active contra dance scene in some areas, and that there are music books full of common tunes and arrangements. Is there a typical Contra dance scene or does it vary widely depending on where you live? What tempos are you used to playing for these dances? How long does a dance last?

 

---

Our local contra dance community; 2-3 dances a month.

Dance lengths for contras are typically about 8-12 minutes; but might be longer (or shorter) depending on the number of dancers in the lines and other factors, (type of dance, complexity, energy level).

The tempi is fairly diverse, overall might range from 96 to 132 or so; but with most perhaps falling in the 112- 120 range, (callers do a good job of mixing it up). It really depends on the flow and feel of each dance figure, what the caller idea of music for the dance is.

More important than just how fast, is about getting a good solid feel and flow, rhythmic groove.

For coming up with a tune list... might categorize a bit along that of qualitative rhythmic feel and flow. (tempo will just fit within that context). That is some folks have the idea to randomly pick any AABB tune and then just try and fit it to the tempo the caller selects  - IMO a better way is to list tunes (the way you play them) that fit a certain feel, (and there will be a tempo range that fits). For example; say more smooth and graceful; tunes that are more bouncy/steppy; and tunes that fit more of a driving crank it out (and there can be even more categorizing).

Communication with the caller is invaluable... including pre-communication before the dance; helps prevent both caller and band being put on the spot.

I’d like to hear about your experiences in playing contra dances.  I was once told by a player I respect that playing for contra dances is a real good way to learn your instrument, and I agree with that.

For some folks, playing for dances is not a means to an end, but the goal itself. It's not merely some practice for learning an instrument, or some future reality, but is joyful, exhilarating, living in the moment, here and now real life experience. The idea of practicing and  learning the instrument (and repertoire) is to achieve that goal of playing for dancers.

Playing for a dance IS NOT JAMMING!!!

Agree with most of what Kirk stated....  but this depends on what you define as jamming. One of the things I like about playing dances is it involves the my favorite aspects of improvisational jamming. Besides the musician interactions... in this you are including the dancers as part of the jamming... and taking the fixed form of the tune (and the dance figure) and be creative with weaving different ideas and twists and turns, pushes and pulls; applied to the repetitions to alter the experience and keep it fresh.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/11/2016:  17:44:35

George - yes, matching the tune to the dance is important. (I didn't say this earlier. Thank for mentioning it.) Bouncy - smooth - walking/marching, etc. Since I know many of the dances and figures and can read the caller's notes, I can determine where those figures are in the tune and select an appropriate tune to match those figures.  This is where dancing yourself can help you in tune selection.

Jamming - I mean "play what you want at the tempo you want." Being creative, improvisational within the bounds of the tune/dance is appropriate. It gives freshness and excitement. I will frequently pick up on something the dancers are doing during a phase, then play around with that based on how the dancers react. That is fun!

George - I really think you and I are on the same wavelength!

Oh, I played for one caller who liked continue a contra until everyone returned to their original place. This one dance was crowded and I stared down three sets of 40 couples! I took a deep breath and told my band mates to hold on. We're in for some long sets!! They each lasted around 15 minutes! I was pooped.

fujers - Posted - 10/11/2016:  18:56:31

Is contra the same as squire dance. Squire dance I've played a few. Never knew the difference. Jerry

Fiddler - Posted - 10/12/2016:  04:17:13

Here's a Typical contra dance evening at NTTDS dances in Dallas.

Part 1: 6-8 dances - most very easy, but progressing in difficulty. About 1/3 of the dancers will be new.

Break: Waltz and/or hambo or other dance for couples

Part 2: 6-8 dances - first dance is challenging - more difficult. Last couple of dances are easy and fun.

Closing Waltz

Clean-up tune: Polka or other couples' dance or fast tempo (130-160) tune for clogging.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/12/2016:  08:24:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

Is contra the same as squire dance. Squire dance I've played a few. Never knew the difference. Jerry

---

Contra dances have opposing lines. The Virginia Reel is a contra dance that is very common. Many of the figures are common to square dances (do-si-so, allemande, etc.) since there is an overlap with the English country dancing, Scottish dancing and French court dancing. (There is much more to this!!! This has been the topic of many PhD dissertations!)

The dance lines for the older dances have the men on one side and the ladies on the other. This is called "Proper". Others will have men and ladies alternating. (Improper) In either case, you partner is usually across from you. 

During the dance you do figures with the couple next to you. As you end the figures, you progress to the next couple in the line. Couples moving away from the band (head of the set) are the active couples. Couples progress toward the band are the inactive couples. In the older dances with proper formation, the inactive couple were mostly inactive giving them plenty of time to flirt, talk, etc. Modern dancers find proper dances somewhat boring, so callers will not program many of these.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/12/2016:  10:06:06

Here are some links to contra dance history.  Happy reading!

Here are some very basic histories:

fifthreelmusicanddance.com/con...ance.html

dancefl.us/contra/history.php

serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange...a-dancing

heinerfischle.de/history/c-history.htm

            This is a segment from above about Henry Ford (yes, that one) and revival of square dancing.  Ford was quite instrumental in this!

                           heinerfischle.de/history/ford-e.htm  (Personal note: I have danced (as well as my wife) at Lovett Hall to the calling of Glen Morningstar and the Ruffwater String Band.)

Links to everything you ever wanted to know about contra dancing, history, etc.

contradancelinks.com/essays.html

mswlogo - Posted - 10/12/2016:  19:54:38

I 2nd the Portland Collection. I have all the books and all the CD's. I absolutely love the CD's.

The books and the tunes out of the books are very popular around New England area.

Make sure you Dance as well as play :)

You need to play in that environment a LOT more if you (and the rest of the band) want to get comfortable at that tempo.

fujers - Posted - 10/12/2016:  20:22:15

So it's not just playing OT. I know that OT plays a various amounts of timing  like 2/4, 4/4 3/4 is it something like that. Now I've played that kind of music before. Sorry fiddler I can't read or hear your links. Must be something wrong with my pc. Jerry

Fiddler - Posted - 10/12/2016:  20:57:01

Jerry - music will be mostly of celtic (Irish, Scots, etc) origin - reels, hornpipes, etc. 32 bar (AABB - 8x8x8x8). Soldier's Joy, Liberty, MIssissippi Sawyer, Fisher's Hornpipe, are but a few examples. Some will claim that celtic music is the original OT music and thus, we should be focusing on that if we were to be "correct." (For those who might miss it, that was a joke!)

hmmm.... Links work for me. Try copying and pasting to your browser.

gapbob - Posted - 10/13/2016:  05:07:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

So it's not just playing OT. I know that OT plays a various amounts of timing  like 2/4, 4/4 3/4 is it something like that. Now I've played that kind of music before. Sorry fiddler I can't read or hear your links. Must be something wrong with my pc. Jerry

---

Actually Jerry, ot music works pretty well for both counts and square dance, mostly that is what I have danced to for nearly 40 years.  Just have to be careful about not playing crooked tunes and recognizing that you are playing for dancers, so the tempo range is important, earlier someone said 106-120 bpm, and I would agree with that, except I know I have both danced and played at speeds greater than that, up to 130, say.

Lots of tunes in modern contradance collections are dumbed down, using simpler settings and homogenized keys.  Ruffwater and Portland Collections come to mind, but they are great for a varying skill level of musician joining together to play for a dance.

Edited by - gapbob on 10/13/2016 05:08:17

gapbob - Posted - 10/13/2016:  05:13:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddler 

Oh, I played for one caller who liked continue a contra until everyone returned to their original place. This one dance was crowded and I stared down three sets of 40 couples! I took a deep breath and told my band mates to hold on. We're in for some long sets!! They each lasted around 15 minutes! I was pooped.

---

Yes, there are dance callers who are not as "capable" as others, some think running a dance that long makes them cool.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/13/2016:  07:30:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by gapbob

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddler 

Oh, I played for one caller who liked continue a contra until everyone returned to their original place. This one dance was crowded and I stared down three sets of 40 couples! I took a deep breath and told my band mates to hold on. We're in for some long sets!! They each lasted around 15 minutes! I was pooped.

---

Yes, there are dance callers who are not as "capable" as others, some think running a dance that long makes them cool.

---

I really don't think it was that they weren't "capable" or wanted to be considered "cool." I think it was just their personal philosophy in allowing everyone to be the "active" couple. I have noticed that this person has changed and doesn't do this as much any more.ance to interact with people.

gapbob - Posted - 10/13/2016:  12:24:30

I was being circumspect.  I have tried to correct a caller who abused the dancers by running the dance that long (the dancers do not like it, unless it is a very specially satisfying dance) but with no luck.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/13/2016:  13:27:27

I usually leave the complaints about the length of a dance up to the dancers or to another caller who may be present.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 10/13/2016:  14:53:31

Comments already made seem to have covered it pretty well.. I can only quote something that Pete Southerland told me many years ago.  "Playing for a contra dance can make a grown man cry."........Whom amoung you understand this?

Fiddler - Posted - 10/13/2016:  19:38:44

And, it's like getting paid to eat ice cream!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/14/2016:  12:59:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lee M

 

  "Playing for a contra dance can make a grown man cry."........Whom amoung you understand this?

---

???  I'm puzzled, why?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/14/2016:  14:55:52

I live in an area where it seems like there aren’t too many real active contra dancers, just regular folks out for a good time.

"Just regular folks out for a good time" is pretty much what all traditional social dancing is about - participation as part of community... and a the appeal to contra is that accessibility, doesn't really require knowing much complexity or fancy footwork, or memorizing whole dances.  Mostly just some basic things like walking, left/right, swing... and is often first walked thru and guided; and a general acceptance of not being perfect... folks might mess up (especially first few times) - Even in active contra communities.

Should also mention, for those not from a background of dancing...... (BG, contest, jazz, classical...) Playing for a dance is not a performance... sit down listening. Dancers really don't pay much attention to some things that musicians sometimes think are important. Impressive, complexity, fancy, flashy, ornate, creative MT improvisations... or even perfect technical execution (no mistakes, as written, perfect timing/tone/intonation/bowing) - dancers mostly just the overall feel, especially the rhythmic groove. Similar to the above paragraph of "just regular folks out for a good time" - musicians are often just regular folks, (not highly classic technical skills); the good ones have developed the skills that are most important and work great for dancing. (often the best dance musicians understand the music because they dance)

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 10/14/2016 15:05:36

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/14/2016:  15:21:15

music books full of common tunes and arrangements.

Thought worth mentioning - Contra in many places isn't overly tied to it's more traditional NE roots; and has evolved - incorporating and mixing other music styles.

Southern OT fiddling and stringband for contras has become very common in some places.

It works great, can give a smoother fluidness to the dance, if  you are more inclined to an OT sound you should probably focus on that (as opposed to trying to learn traditional NE contra sound). Bear in mind, some OT can be a bit problematic, might want to watch, avoid or adapt, do a few things a little different in how you play them to make it work better for the dancers. (a lot of the good OT bands just borrow a few  devices)

Might be a good discussion about what OT players can do... issues, and devices to use. (IIRC there was some previous on FHO)

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 10/14/2016 15:24:11

abinigia - Posted - 10/14/2016:  16:55:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

I live in an area where it seems like there aren’t too many real active contra dancers, just regular folks out for a good time.

"Just regular folks out for a good time" is pretty much what all traditional social dancing is about - participation as part of community... and a the appeal to contra is that accessibility, doesn't really require knowing much complexity or fancy footwork, or memorizing whole dances.  Mostly just some basic things like walking, left/right, swing... and is often first walked thru and guided; and a general acceptance of not being perfect... folks might mess up (especially first few times) - Even in active contra communities.

 

Should also mention, for those not from a background of dancing...... (BG, contest, jazz, classical...) Playing for a dance is not a performance... sit down listening. Dancers really don't pay much attention to some things that musicians sometimes think are important. Impressive, complexity, fancy, flashy, ornate, creative MT improvisations... or even perfect technical execution (no mistakes, as written, perfect timing/tone/intonation/bowing) - dancers mostly just the overall feel, especially the rhythmic groove. Similar to the above paragraph of "just regular folks out for a good time" - musicians are often just regular folks, (not highly classic technical skills); the good ones have developed the skills that are most important and work great for dancing. (often the best dance musicians understand the music because they dance)

---

I am soaking up a lot of information from all the replies. Everybody says to go to dances, and I'll admit I haven't. Never been much of a dancer. But my wife is, and maybe I will ask her to the next contra dance near by. Obviously it would help me understand the whole scene better. I get the idea that most people at the dances don't really know the various styles of music played there very well. As I say, regular folks out for a good time, not many aficionados of the music. But the points made here about how to play the tunes ring true. Good timing and a strong sense of the beat is what they and the caller want.

I know that different styles of tunes will work, as long as they are square 32 bar tunes. I've looked through some books from the east coast tradition (and bought the New England Fiddler's Repertoire) and find I already know many tunes suggested. It has been a few years since I played many Irish Reels, but they come back quickly. I see jigs in the books I know too. I am not clear how often jigs are used for Contra dances, but none were requested the last couple of times we played.

I know way more tunes, and more kinds of tunes, than the guys I play with, and I am always learning more. It's not realistic to expect that they will be able to increase their playing speed and learn many tunes quickly, so it is up to me to drive the dances. Last time I really made them play faster than they were able used to, and found it is extra work for me to pull them along. I would much rather have them up to speed with a good sure tempo for me to ride. It's fun, and good for me anyway. Thanks for all the feedback.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/15/2016:  06:47:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

music books full of common tunes and arrangements.

Thought worth mentioning - Contra in many places isn't overly tied to it's more traditional NE roots; and has evolved - incorporating and mixing other music styles.

Southern OT fiddling and stringband for contras has become very common in some places.

It works great, can give a smoother fluidness to the dance, if  you are more inclined to an OT sound you should probably focus on that (as opposed to trying to learn traditional NE contra sound). Bear in mind, some OT can be a bit problematic, might want to watch, avoid or adapt, do a few things a little different in how you play them to make it work better for the dancers. (a lot of the good OT bands just borrow a few  devices)

Might be a good discussion about what OT players can do... issues, and devices to use. (IIRC there was some previous on FHO)

---

I play mostly OT/Missouri/Ozark/Midwest tunes for the contra. Yes, I can also play some of the New England tunes, but those tunes have helped me identify the characteristics that are needed in the tunes. Additionally, knowing what tune was traditionally used for a dance will help with selecting alternates. Jigs (6/8s) are not that prevalent in OT, so we don't do many. This is unfortunate since there are wonderful OT 6/8s out there!! (See Charlie Walden's website.) The problem seems to be that accompanists are not comfortable with that time signature and fiddlers have trouble with the bowing pattern needed to make the tune dance. (I do!! But I am getting better.)

At the NTTDS dances here in Dallas, many of the bands play OT. There are some that play celtic/New England tunes and one that does a good number original tunes.

So, characteristics/devices:

1. Proper length - 32 bars AABB format (8*8*8*8)

2. Well phrased - within the 8 bars either a 2bar or 4bar phrase

3. Distinctive A and B parts. Sound different and have a different feel.

4. Feel of the tune - bouncy vs. marchy. Does it vary bouncy to marchy from A to B?

5. Are there "punches" in the tune?  Do they match the dance?  "Punches" are good for "balance and swing"

Example:

Chorus Jig (Tune: Chorus Jig) from Elias Howe's American Dancing Master (1862)

Duple (or triple) and proper

• A1 Actives down the outside (8 beats) and back (8)
  

  A2 Actives down the center, turn individually (8)
  
  Come back and cast off (8)

  
  
  

  B1 Turn contra corners

  
  
  

  B2 Actives balance and swing in center (16)

  
  

So, what would be acceptable an acceptable alternative tune?  In looking at the dance description, a 32 bar (64 beat) tune will work. I would look for a tune that is "smooth" or suggest walking in the A part. The B2 has a balance and swing figure. So, I would look for a "punch" at the first of the B part. What immediately comes to mind is "Uncle Joe" or "Hop High Ladies". You can probably think of others.

Personally, because I play Chorus Jig, I would use that tune to start for obvious reasons. But I would not have a problem switching to something else. Since Chorus Jig is a G/D tune, I would play "Uncle Joe" in G (or another appropriate G tune) to be kind to the banjoist in our group.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 10/16/2016:  14:49:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lee M

 

  "Playing for a contra dance can make a grown man cry."........Whom amoung you understand this?

---

???  I'm puzzled, why?

 

---

It was said in jest.. but referred to the fact that some callers seem to play LONG sets and if you are the only fiddler, you have difficulty scratching your nose...  If the musicians choose to just play one tune for the dance and it is at breakneck speed, it can get  tiring..... and at some point the band is ready to Quit... but the caller and dancers aren't..

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/16/2016:  16:53:04

 Today I played for the runners of the Des Moines Marathon around mile 13/14. Once the elites were through and the general masses started to pass by, I played for nearly 2 hours straight before there was a significant break in the runners! I got to do a quick stretch and drink a quick cup of tea before another 30 minute stretch. It was rough, but the stretch REALLY saved me as I was losing feeling in my left hand fingers and intonation was starting to suffer. I played one waltz and near the end of the race played a couple of slower swingy tunes. Otherwise, I played  at dance tempo and above to keep 'em motivated.

15 minute dances? Pffft. Better get to training for endurance. No crying allowed.

abinigia - Posted - 10/16/2016:  20:33:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

 

 Today I played for the runners of the Des Moines Marathon around mile 13/14. Once the elites were through and the general masses started to pass by, I played for nearly 2 hours straight before there was a significant break in the runners! I got to do a quick stretch and drink a quick cup of tea before another 30 minute stretch. It was rough, but the stretch REALLY saved me as I was losing feeling in my left hand fingers and intonation was starting to suffer. I played one waltz and near the end of the race played a couple of slower swingy tunes. Otherwise, I played  at dance tempo and above to keep 'em motivated.

15 minute dances? Pffft. Better get to training for endurance. No crying allowed.

---

Yeah, but at least you could play your favorite tunes over and over and nobody'd notice,right?

fujers - Posted - 10/16/2016:  22:43:06

So I get it. Much like the things I used to play. Some dancers has there own take on tempo..and sometimes you would have to start the tune to see how they like your tempo and adjust from there. But is it the same or not of what I used to play. You call it contra..but would I be save to say squire dance. I don't know I grew up in the south and every thing down there is squire...not the people...I guess some houses could be..or there shopping centers. I'm going to shut my mouth because someone from the south might be reading. Jerry

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/17/2016:  04:58:00

Brian I played a bunch of tunes and usually for a long while before medleying into another. I played stuff I would play for dances and sometimes when I thought "I'll play X next" (from key of D to G for example), instead what would come out of the fiddle was Y - also in key of G. The good thing was no one else around to say "but, we were going to play X."  I didn't use a list and tried to combine tunes at random to see how they felt next to each other. This morning my right shoulder area is a little tight 

Jerry, yes you can think of this as the old fashioned squire (usually spelled squAre) dancing - not that fancy stuff with frilly dresses and gingham shirts, just regular folks dressed comfortably. 

robinja - Posted - 10/22/2016:  11:23:04

Billy - Your story was nice inspiration for the gig my band played last night, again, not a dance, but an endurance test for sure.  Every year a historic cemetery in Atlanta has Halloween tours during the evening on weekends leading up to Halloween.  It's not a scary event - they select 4 or 5 "residents", and present a story about each of them with actors dressing up in period clothing, etc.  (It's a fund-raiser for the cemetery, since a non-profit foundation maintains the grounds and historic monuments.)  This event is very popular, and there is a long line of patrons waiting their turn, and it was our job to keep them entertained while they waited.  We started playing at around 5:45PM and packed up our cases at around 11:00.  We took a couple of quick bio breaks, but other than that, we played all night.  It was made a little more difficult by a cold front that decided to come through with some gusty cool wind.  My goal was not to repeat a tune, and we did it with many tunes to spare!  My arms were sore this morning (probably from tensing up against the wind as much as anything), but it was fun, and we're slated to do it again next week. 

Judy

ChickenMan - Posted - 10/22/2016:  18:19:09

 sounds like a good gig!

Fiddler - Posted - 10/22/2016:  22:04:27

Just got back from playing a contra dance this evening in Dallas. As we were packing up, a bunch  of the dancers came up and thanked us for the music. This typical for this group - they really do appreciate live music! The musicians and caller gets a small honorarium (enough to buy a couple of beers), so this gesture from the dancers is much appreciated. Tonight, though, several of the dancers gave us the highest compliment I have heard in years. They commented on the tune selection and specifically the phrasing. They said particularly that the phrasing was "right on"- meaning the tunes worked quite well for the figures and made the dances fun. I felt good that we were able to provide that.

The icing was as I was walking out to my car, I heard several of the dancers lilting a couple of the tunes we played and another gave his compliments on our tune selections. It made me feel good! So, this was a reminder to me that my music gives joy and touches people in numerous ways that I don't realize.

As I read the posts above about playing for various events, even though the topic was about stamina and endurance, I can't help to think about the connections that they were making with those who heard their music.

abinigia - Posted - 10/23/2016:  12:47:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddler

...

The icing was as I was walking out to my car, I heard several of the dancers lilting a couple of the tunes we played and another gave his compliments on our tune selections. It made me feel good! So, this was a reminder to me that my music gives joy and touches people in numerous ways that I don't realize.

As I read the posts above about playing for various events, even though the topic was about stamina and endurance, I can't help to think about the connections that they were making with those who heard their music.

 

---

Well, what were some of your popular tunes?

Fiddler - Posted - 10/23/2016:  15:41:27

Popular tunes - Red Hills Polka, Snow Deer and Needlecase. Hop High Ladies (Uncle Joe) worked particularly well for a dance with a Petronella figure.

Other tunes we played included:

Salt River Reel

Whiskey Before Breakfast

Shove that Pig's Foot

Seneca Square Dance

Redwing

Year of Jubilo

Sarah Armstrong's Tune

Shoes & Stockings

Little Dutch Girl

Waltzes: Shepherd's Wife Waltz, Westphalia, Red Fox Waltz

Tunes planned but didn't get played:

Wake Up Susan

White River Bottoms

Booth Shot Lincoln

Twin Sisters

Rush and the Pepper

Fiddler - Posted - 10/23/2016:  20:59:52

FWIW - Our "tune bank" is full of many other great tunes, some war horses - some freshly found - "contest potential" tunes - some New England, some celtic, etc.. What is more important for us (and me) is that the tunes have good phrasing, have a recognizable melody, have distinctive A and B parts, and "lead" the dancers into the figures, and that I can play for an extended period of time. So, we don't worry too much about playing "cool" or unusual tunes. Besides, it's not about the band, it's about the dance.

Here's the process - during the break between dances, I'll get with the caller to quickly review the dance and figures. I know I will have about 2-3 minutes to find and select appropriate tunes. I'll ask my band mates for suggestion of tunes that have certain characteristics - bouncy, smooth, marchy, petronella friendly, etc. (This is where a tune list is invaluable!) I'll make a decision on what I think will work and then watch the caller teach/walk-through the dance. (Sometimes, like last night, during our sound check and warm up, the caller provided me with a list of the dances and the figures. Gave me a little more time.)  At times, I will call and audible and change tunes knowing that what we had selected would be disastrous for the dance. Quite often, I am glad I did. And, if I can get the dancers humming the tune during and after the dance, that's even better!

We do Stephen Foster sets. One favorite is a medley of Nelly Bly (D), Glendy Burke (G), Camptown Races (A) - those are fun when the dancers sing along as they dance! (Yes, this drives the banjoist batty, but he has figured out how to play these out of one tuning! YAY!!)

Now you know my innermost secrets. I wish you well with your next dance!

mswlogo - Posted - 10/24/2016:  07:35:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

I live in an area where it seems like there aren’t too many real active contra dancers, just regular folks out for a good time.

"Just regular folks out for a good time" is pretty much what all traditional social dancing is about - participation as part of community... and a the appeal to contra is that accessibility, doesn't really require knowing much complexity or fancy footwork, or memorizing whole dances.  Mostly just some basic things like walking, left/right, swing... and is often first walked thru and guided; and a general acceptance of not being perfect... folks might mess up (especially first few times) - Even in active contra communities.

 

Should also mention, for those not from a background of dancing...... (BG, contest, jazz, classical...) Playing for a dance is not a performance... sit down listening. Dancers really don't pay much attention to some things that musicians sometimes think are important. Impressive, complexity, fancy, flashy, ornate, creative MT improvisations... or even perfect technical execution (no mistakes, as written, perfect timing/tone/intonation/bowing) - dancers mostly just the overall feel, especially the rhythmic groove. Similar to the above paragraph of "just regular folks out for a good time" - musicians are often just regular folks, (not highly classic technical skills); the good ones have developed the skills that are most important and work great for dancing. (often the best dance musicians understand the music because they dance)

---

I totally agree. Not only do some dancers not really care, some dislike it when some fiddlers get too complex, fancy, improvise etc. A little is great. That applies to playing with as well as dancing with :)

sellis - Posted - 10/24/2016:  11:21:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddler

 

We do Stephen Foster sets. One favorite is a medley of Nelly Bly (D), Glendy Burke (G), Camptown Races (A) - those are fun when the dancers sing along as they dance! (Yes, this drives the banjoist batty, but he has figured out how to play these out of one tuning! YAY!!)

 

Bad fiddler!!! 

Which tuning does he play these in?  I might try it in DD tuning on the banjo.