mswlogo - Posted - 03/17/2015:  18:07:19

Due to the damage and Cost of Shipping Returns I ended up with this Viola for Free.

It was not an expensive Viola. $289.00 But it looks pretty darn nice.

It was not the shippers fault but the shipping company. It was in transit for 4 weeks and I believe the box got VERY wet early in its travels.

The box was dry on the outside by the time I got it. But still wet inside.

I don't think it saw any impact. It just started falling apart because the hide glue started dissolving.

I don't see any water stains in the Viola.

The only problems I see is the finger board was completely off.

Two seams on the lower bout on the top side let loose.

The post fell over but the bridge was still up !!

Around here I know this would cost well over $200.00 to fix. It may not even be worth $200.00 when it's fixed because I don't know what it may have done to the sound of this instrument.

So I'm thinking of tackling this myself.

I have very few fine wood working tools and I don't like sharp tools ;)

I'm sure the fingerboard needs some repreping for gluing.

Can I "wash" the hide glue that's left? Like with a damp sponge?

I would just do a light sand after that.

I'm nervous of doing any sanding though because it might round the edges. The edges are nice and clean and sharp.

The seam at the saddle is still holding. But let go on either side.

Will the hide glue "wick" itself into the seams?

How can I get the glue in there without opening the seam?

How fast does the hide glue setup?

I'm not sure why the ribs are pulled in some. Not sure that needs be resolved and just glue it where it is and touch it up.

I have 3 Chin Rests I would use for clamps :)

Thanks for any advice.

mswlogo - Posted - 03/17/2015:  18:11:29

Also Is this Hide Glue ok?

amazon.com/Titebond-4oz-Wood-G...Hide+Glue

FiddleDoug - Posted - 03/17/2015:  18:26:19

I wouldn't do anything with it just yet. It looks to me like the reason that the ribs don't match up is that the top has swelled from the moisture. You really need to let it dry out for a couple of months, or more, before you do anything with it.If the top shrinks back down, the ribs should fit better. If you glue it on before the top has properly dried, you risk cracking the top. I wouldn't use chinrests to glue the top on. While you're waiting for things to dry out properly, you can make yourself some spool clamps, get some hide glue, and a glue pot, and do a little practicing with the hide glue. That way, you'll know how hide glue works. Gluing the fingerboard will require some other clamps. Make sure that all your clamps have pads on all clemping surfaces or you'll end up with nasty indentations in places where you don't want them (like the plates and neck).

mswlogo - Posted - 03/17/2015:  20:18:18

That's an excellent theory on the top swelling. I suspect you are right. Very sharp. The ribs look perfectly square and it didn't make sense why it didn't mate up. Swelling fits.

A glue pot eh?, oh boy, that's sounding more complex than I bargained for.

What do you think it would cost to have it glued up? Once (if) it shrinks back up?

fujers - Posted - 03/17/2015:  20:57:29

Depends Logo on how much the cost. If you take it to an experienced person or not. Do your research. Jerry

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/17/2015:  21:59:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo



 

A glue pot eh?, oh boy, that's sounding more complex than I bargained for.

 

 

---

workbenchdiary.com/2011/05/hom...-pot.html

mandolincafe.com/forum/showthr...-glue-pot

norsewoodsmith.com/content/sim...lue-setup

forums.finewoodworking.com/fin...crock-pot

This seems to be the key info:

"Most manufacturers recommend that you heat the glue no higher than 140F.

It's an animal protein and like any other such protein if you cook it at a high temperature you change it significantly. Rare meat is a different product than is well done meatn. So if you cook it at too high a temperature, you kill its gluing ability.

That said, it strikes me that hide glue is rather forgiving. You can get away with cooking it a little too hot if you don't do it for long.

Get hold of some kind of reasonably accurate thermometer to monitor the temperature of your water bath."

FiddleDoug - Posted - 03/18/2015:  05:26:03

Don't use the premade liquid hide glue! It has been implicated in sudden joint failure. Use hot hide glue. For my glue pot water bath, I use something like this:

bedbathandbeyond.com/store/pro...QodjisAFQ

You can usually find something like this in thrift stores for about $5. A small jar inside this would hold the glue. The only other thing you would need is a thermometer for the glue.

I usually charge $25 per section/bout for simple re-gluing, but I can charge a bit less than other shops due to my low overhead..

Edited by - FiddleDoug on 03/18/2015 05:27:05

Chet Bishop - Posted - 03/18/2015:  06:21:05

I am still using the potpourri warmer I bought from the Good Will store 16 years ago. I paid $3, and it still works fine. I use an old yeast jar for the glue container, and put the lid on while the glue is still hot, which keeps mold spores out. It keeps very well at room temperature. Refrigeration would be even better, I am sure. By the way, when I need hot hide glue quickly, I take the yeast jar out of the water bath, remove the lid, and put it in the microwave oven for 15 seconds or so... Instant hide glue.

The fellows are right about not using the bottled hide glue stuff. I know a fellow (from Idaho, where it is dry) who took five brand-new fiddles to a fiddlers convention in the deep south (where it is very humid). He had the mortifying experience of watching all five fiddles slowly disassemble themselves right in front of all his intended customers. Liquid hide glue was the culprit. (He had been warned, too, but was sure that the people were wrong.) The bottled hide glue absorbs moisture out of the air, and goes back to being a liquid.

vibratingstring - Posted - 03/18/2015:  07:17:53

mswlogo,

- do NOT use the Titebond hide glue.   I used it in the past in tests and it creeped.

- I would advise using a flat scraper to clean glue off the fingerboard and neck.  You are right, it is easy to round surfaces and edges while sanding.

- When clamping the fingerboard, be certain is is still aligned AFTER the clamps are snug.   It can shift due to the non-flat surfaces being clamped.

- Like Chet, I use an alternative to a glue pot.   I found a cheap chocolate melting double boiler and a portable adjustable electric single burner stove for a few dollars.   Works great as a glue pot.   I use a meat thermometer to hold the temperature steady and bit of water now and then to keep the consistency right. 

- you cannot install chinrests fast enough when working with hot hide glue to use them as clamps in the gluing operation.

I think these are repairs that you can do, if you are careful and take some advice from this thread.

Larry

Edited by - vibratingstring on 03/18/2015 07:22:51

cornfed - Posted - 03/18/2015:  07:19:07

Based on the photos, it should be a fairly niceish instrument.

Glue pot: All you need is a heat source ( kitchen stove ? hotplate?) any pan for a water bath, coffee cup for the glue. You are basically improvising a double boiler.The only expense is for the glue. When the glue develops a "skin" its ready to use. Thinner is better than thicker. Before gluing the neck, clean off old glue on both surfaces, wipe them with fresh glue, let it soak for a few seconds then wipe it off with a damp cloth. This is called "glue seizing" anit makes for a MUCH stronger joint.

Never tried the microwave thing, seems like it would work.

Making some saem clamps is easy, cheap and far better than chinrest clamps. a length of old broomstick, some carriage bolts, wingnuts washers and some sort of padding and your set. minimal expense

BE CAREFUL that you remove the sound post from the fiddle before you glue up the seams. Don't ask me how I know this.

You will probably have to experiment with fingerboard clamping. I used to use  a a series of smallish wood jawed parallel hand screws ( don't know the proper name). Perhaps a "shoe" fitted to fingerboard and C clamps would work. Be sure you line up the edges of fingerboard and neck as well as you can. Be sure that the bridge end of the fingerboard  is evenly spaced to the edges of the fiddle. However careful you are, you will probably need to dress the edges of the fingerboard and neck flush. Be prepared to do this.

My rule of thumb for set time is 1 hour to remove clamps, overnight to cure. it always worked for me. Always pad clamps. Clean up glue forced out of the joins with a damp cloth while it is still liquid.

I'm probably missing something but it has been a while since I've done this .  Good luck. be careful and meticulous, and you shouldn't have any problems.

Lee M - Posted - 03/18/2015:  15:08:10

I just use a coffee cup warmer and a tuna can ( tuna removed)... If you are just doing occasional repairs, that is all you need.

mswlogo - Posted - 03/18/2015:  15:54:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by cornfed

 

Based on the photos, it should be a fairly niceish instrument.

Glue pot: All you need is a heat source ( kitchen stove ? hotplate?) any pan for a water bath, coffee cup for the glue. You are basically improvising a double boiler.The only expense is for the glue. When the glue develops a "skin" its ready to use. Thinner is better than thicker. Before gluing the neck, clean off old glue on both surfaces, wipe them with fresh glue, let it soak for a few seconds then wipe it off with a damp cloth. This is called "glue seizing" anit makes for a MUCH stronger joint.

 

---

I like the idea of using some hot glue to clean and prime the Neck and Fingerboard.

I also found this video youtube.com/watch?v=fqe7QbbCm8o

I still think I can use chin rests for clamps. They are Wittner type and I can probably get them on as fast as clamps.

What's a good source for the glue, preferably on Amazon if they have it?

hurdy_gurdyman - Posted - 03/19/2015:  10:40:19

I've used the Titebond hide glue to repair all kinds of instruments, including gluing the neck onto a fiddle. I have even built some hurdy-gurdies with it. There is a secret to using it. The glue has a very short shelf life, usually around three years. There is no date on the bottle, so if it has been sitting a long time in a warehouse it could already be going bad. You can can check the condition of the glue by putting one drop on a flat wood surface, turn it upside down, and observe the drop. If it just stretches out a bit and stays there, the glue is good. If it keeps stretching and eventually drips some off, throw the bottle away. I learned how to use this because I had to work in the house and my wife hated the smell of hot hide glue (same with melting down rosin). It holds very well as long as the glue is put on before it goes bad. Once the solvent evaporates out of it when the glued parts are drying, it should hold as well as hide glue (after all, it is hide glue with an added chemical to keep it in liquid form.)

Dave

captainhook - Posted - 03/19/2015:  14:16:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by cornfed

 

Based on the photos, it should be a fairly niceish instrument.

Glue pot: All you need is a heat source ( kitchen stove ? hotplate?) any pan for a water bath, coffee cup for the glue. You are basically improvising a double boiler.The only expense is for the glue. When the glue develops a "skin" its ready to use. Thinner is better than thicker. Before gluing the neck, clean off old glue on both surfaces, wipe them with fresh glue, let it soak for a few seconds then wipe it off with a damp cloth. This is called "glue seizing" anit makes for a MUCH stronger joint.

 

---

I like the idea of using some hot glue to clean and prime the Neck and Fingerboard.

I also found this video youtube.com/watch?v=fqe7QbbCm8o

I still think I can use chin rests for clamps. They are Wittner type and I can probably get them on as fast as clamps.

What's a good source for the glue, preferably on Amazon if they have it?

 

---

I would NOT clean the neck and fingerboard, just add a little fresh, thin hide glue (NOT Franklin) and clamp. You do not want the fingerboard glued too well in case it ever needs to come off again. The small ebony splinters left on the neck are a great aid in aligning and clamping the fingerboard, for which I normally use three spring clamps.

You can probably get by with chin rests if you practice ahead of time. They are not ideal, but you don't need perfect.

I haven't checked Amazon for glue, but it's worth a try. I get mine from International Violin but the shipping is a little steep. You might want to try Knox unflavored gelatin. It's just refined hide glue. Available in one ounce size in most grocery stores. It gels fast so you need to practice. You can also add a little salt by trial and error to extend the gel time as needed, not enough to keep it liquid. I've used it successfully a few times.

kjb - Posted - 03/19/2015:  15:44:36

is this a one time repair or are you planning on doing more?

mswlogo - Posted - 03/19/2015:  19:28:11

I don't plan on having to do more. But if a seam ever opened up on one of my instruments I would not mind knowing how to fix it.

I have ZERO interest in making or restoring instruments. I have installed perfection pegs on like 5 instruments, each one slightly better than the last.

And I've tweaked a bridge, replaced tailpieces etc. Mostly basic stuff.

I know, like many things, you have to practice this stuff to do it well, I'd never have enough work to keep the practice up.

By the way FiddleDoug was right on the mark about top swelling, accept maybe his ETA. The Top already shrunk to fit !!

There is no expose unvarnished wood any more. It lines up perfectly now. I'll give it another week at least though to settle.

Could be swelling in the neck too that caused the finger board to pop off too.

When I first opened the case, I saw the mess and just closed it up and contacted the seller. The inside of the case didn't feel wet but some foam deep may of still had moisture.

While I waited for week to sort things out with the seller it just sat in the case, probably maintaining the swelling. I never expected to keep it.

As soon as the seller said don't bother sending it back, I took it out and more closely assessed the damage, stripped it, took pictures and started this thread.

As soon as I saw FiddleDoug's assessment I tucked in the corner to dry out. It's BONE dry in my house 22% Humidity. The Top shrunk to fit in 2 Days !!

My wife said we have Knox unflavored gelatin. In fact I ate "Jello blocks" just tonight that she said she used to make it. I don't think I can eat another Jello block if I use it to glue together.

mswlogo - Posted - 03/21/2015:  17:49:20

I ordered this glue (it was free shipping) and was cheaper than internationalviolin if you paid their $10.00 for shipping

amazon.com/gp/product/B00K1JTM...amp;psc=1

I ordered this for a glue pot. Coffee Warmers and Wax Warmers worried me they would not get hot enough and no control on temp.

The "real" Hot Glue warmers are expensive and big like the "Hold-Heet" one.

I wanted something with fine adjustment, but many devices are high, medium, low.

I Iooked at Baby bottle warmers and those don't specify how warm they get. I've seen all the above used.

Then I stumbled onto Ultrasonic Cleaners that have added Heat option.

They have the perfect heat range and wattage and have a stainless steel tub.

I think you can find them as cheap as $40.00

I liked this one because it was small, has a temp set and temp readout and has a good range and is all stainless.

So I get a nice Ultrasonic Cleaner when I'm not warming glue.

ebay.com/itm/111527263485?_trk...BIDX%3AIT

I ordered this seam separation blade.

internationalviolin.com/Produc...4-12-x-34

FiddleDoug - Posted - 03/23/2015:  08:51:14

"Coffee Warmers and Wax Warmers worried me they would not get hot enough and no control on temp"

You only have to get it up to 140 deg. F! I've been using a  $15 Hamilton Beach mini soup pot for years with no problems. It has a control, but you need to use (and should anyways)  a thermometer to check the temperature.

$664!!! For a glue pot? Even if it is an ustrasonic cleaner, you've got to be kidding! The ultrasonic that you linked to doesn't have much heat wattage (my soup pot is 1000 watts and I keep it very low. That bath only controls the water temperature, not the glue temperature.

Edited by - FiddleDoug on 03/23/2015 09:01:18

mswlogo - Posted - 03/23/2015:  09:35:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by FiddleDoug

 

"Coffee Warmers and Wax Warmers worried me they would not get hot enough and no control on temp"

You only have to get it up to 140 deg. F! I've been using a  $15 Hamilton Beach mini soup pot for years with no problems. It has a control, but you need to use (and should anyways)  a thermometer to check the temperature.

$664!!! For a glue pot? Even if it is an ustrasonic cleaner, you've got to be kidding! The ultrasonic that you linked to doesn't have much heat wattage (my soup pot is 1000 watts and I keep it very low. That bath only controls the water temperature, not the glue temperature.

---

Very strange. It's $64.50. It's only 50 watts heat. And like I said you can get them in a plastic case with stainless tub for around $40.00.

I just did a search on Ebay and they are all 10x more than they were a day ago. Some sort of decimal point glitch on Ebay or with this seller.

I will check it with a thermometer to "calibrate" it.

vibratingstring - Posted - 03/23/2015:  13:49:39

Usually you can make due with found items.   I used an old electric coffee pot as a glue pot for do a complete rebuild on a player piano years ago.

For my fiddle repairs, I went out one afternoon and hit 3 thrift shops to get this setup as a glue pot.   Works great.  I can get it up to temperature quickly and then turn down the stove to keep the temperature stable using the reostat on the front of the stove.

I think I paid $10 for the heater and $8 for the double boiler.   I put water in both the upper and lower boiler and I use a meat thermometer in the glue (small jelly jar) to measure the glue temperature.

Larry

Edited by - vibratingstring on 03/23/2015 13:52:49

chocolate melting double boiler glue pot

glue pot from chocoate melting double boiler

mswlogo - Posted - 03/23/2015:  15:09:12

I know there are 100's of ways to heat it.
I chose this because it could do more and wasn't expensive.
I may use it just once for glue (for sure will be rare) and many times for cleaning.

mswlogo - Posted - 03/28/2015:  20:29:43

All fixed.

Cost me $64.50 (Heater Cleaner) + $17.00 (Glue) + $9.50 (Seam Blade) = $91 including the shipping to fix.

The Ultrasonic Cleaner with Heater worked pretty good. Took a good while to heat up, if I started with hot water from tap I think it would have been quicker.

The seams came out as good as I would expect. A-/B+ Chinrests worked great. Except I partly glued the cork down on one foot.

The Finger Board I'd give B-/C+ I knew it was just a tad towards peg box and figured it would not hurt. But then I forgot that would make the fingerboard overhang the neck, by just a hair and it did.

I might try to do fingerboard over some time. I should have jigged it somehow.

Sounds unbelievable. Sustain is crazy long. And it's not even played in yet.

kjb - Posted - 03/29/2015:  07:01:50

what is your string length now?

mswlogo - Posted - 03/29/2015:  20:50:54

367mm (16" Viola)

Bob on Delmarva - Posted - 03/29/2015:  22:49:19

Larry,
Years ago I worked for a company that made heating elements for little hot plates like you are using. I would make sure the cord has a grounded plug and would not leave it unattended. I would also unplug it when not in use. Those little hot plates were made with bottom of the line parts.

vibratingstring - Posted - 04/01/2015:  21:21:40

Thanks for the warning, Bob.   I am cautious, but I will be more cautious.   The cord is a two-wire.    That's what $10 gets you, I guess.   

I had an LCD video monitor power supply burst into flames a few years ago while I was sitting there.   There was a little flame about an inch long jetting out the top after burning through the plastic case.  So you never know.

Larry