Conrad - Posted - 08/16/2014:  04:07:59

I see those terms  "modal tune" or "modal music" often, but I don't know what they are supposed to mean.

Before you answer, please believe me that I am well informed about the seven modern diatonic modes and scales.  So please don't bother to give a general explanation of those, as I have explained them to others many times with considerable success.  Those who need a lesson on those can start at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale#Modes

In my mind, any tune that uses all seven pitches and only those seven and has a well-defined tonic is in some mode.  Then are all of those tunes "modal"?

What is it that makes a tune "modal"?

Edited by - Conrad on 08/16/2014 04:14:57

mad baloney - Posted - 08/16/2014:  04:59:08

Basically it's tunes that aren't made up of notes from the major or minor scales, usually they are in the mixolydian(like a major scale with a flatted 7th) or dorian mode (like a minor scale with the 6th raised a half step).This has been discussed a lot here, check the archives or look up modes.

Edited by - mad baloney on 08/16/2014 05:00:17

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/16/2014:  11:58:00

This is a kind of folk musician slang that doesn't correspond precisely with what you know about the diatonic modes.

Referring to "modal" tunes is basically an acknowledgment that the tune is in either mixolydian or dorian mode, or sometimes BOTH, which happens fairly often. So it's kind of a grab bag term.  The lack of precision doesn't seem to bother folk musicians much... they are more likely to be bothered by people talking about Mixolydian and Dorian!!!!  It's greek to them, after all!!!  This isn't just fiddlers.... banjo players and backup guitarists use the term too.

Saying a tune is "A modal"  will signal the banjo player to use G naturals, and possibly C naturals which might mean retuning.  It would signal to the guitarist that G chord changes will figure prominently in the backup instead of E major chords, and that A minor chords MIGHT be used instead of A major chords.

If you told them the tune was A mixolydian or A dorian, they would just stare at you blankly, or possibly start muttering vile imprecations! 

Calling a tune "modal" also contrasts the tune with what it ISN'T- it implies that the tune is neither full major (which technically, yes, is Ionian mode) which is used a lot in folk fiddle tunes, and full minor (which is technically Aeolian mode) and is very seldom used in folk fiddle tunes.

If you want to understand the resistance to using the precise terms for the actual diatonic modes, most people would not find a discussion of enzymes and amino acids at the dinner table to be particularly appetizing.  Or start talking about a Felis silvestris catus with some cat owners talking about their kitties, or a Canis lupus familiaris with a bunch of dog owners.

With Old Time fiddle tunes, and Old Time fiddle tunes played by Bluegrass musicians, "modal" tunes are almost always in A.  There are a few exceptions in D.

In Irish Trad music, they could be in other keys as well.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/16/2014:  13:28:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conrad

In my mind, any tune that uses all seven pitches and only those seven and has a well-defined tonic is in some mode.  Then are all of those tunes "modal"?

What is it that makes a tune "modal"?

---

Yes and no. So one use of the term "modal" refers to not just the notes and sequence of whole and half steps, but in how they are used, where it places focus in following the harmonic structuring that is different than the major/minor functional harmony.  Which makes Ionian and Aeolian "modal" - The introduction of major/minor brought an expansion, new ways to structure the music, that didn't exist with modal.

But for many folks, they don't make a distinction between Ionian and major; perhaps Aeolian and minor (though has a more significant difference) -  so just use modal to refer to anything different than what they were taught as the major scale.

timfiskwa - Posted - 08/16/2014:  15:44:34

Conrad,
Here is an alternate version of Modal tune structure. It works, but seems to be a heretical view. It is different in that it is not based on traditional music theory modes which were formalized during the Renaissance by that Italian guy who never heard real ancient Greek music. It is based on a double tonic structure which I think predates modern music theory (think Elizabethan England and "Greensleeves"). Mixolydian and Dorian modes cover most of the tunes but I think the double tonic structure makes more sense and is more versatile.
. C to Bb C D E F G A B C Key of C Modal, (Ionian C and Ionian Bb)

Bb C D D# F G A Bb

A to G A B C# D E F# G# A Key of A Modal, (Ionian A and Ionian G)

G A B C D E F# G ....

Same pattern D to C= D Modal and G to F = G Modal
For more read Miles Krassen's book "Appalachian Fiddle"

timfiskwa - Posted - 08/16/2014:  15:51:31

Here is edited format

Key of C Modal=(Ionian C and Ionian Bb)



Key of A Modal=(Ionian A and Ionian G)


Same pattern D to C= D Modal and G to F = G Modal

DougD - Posted - 08/16/2014:  15:59:47

Tim, in your Bb scale that D# should be written as Eb, unless its some strange kind of scale.

mad baloney - Posted - 08/16/2014:  18:40:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by timfiskwa

 

Here is edited format



Key of C Modal=(Ionian C and Ionian Bb)







Key of A Modal=(Ionian A and Ionian G)





Same pattern D to C= D Modal and G to F = G Modal

---

There's no such thing as C modal! Or F Modal... or any other key... I don't care what somebody might have told you, they were misinformed or misunderstood. There's dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian and locrian and modal means one of those modes, you need to say which.

It's like telling a waitress you'd like to order some "food" at a restaurant.

BTW you are describing the mixolydian mode in your post, so C mixolydian (or even C mix) it's even shorter than modal.

Edited by - mad baloney on 08/16/2014 18:47:19

timfiskwa - Posted - 08/16/2014:  19:34:53

The poster was looking for alternative explanations to the 7 modern theory modes and I was attempting to offer one. The double tonic ionian or aeolian modes when put together in A to G keys (or D to C, G to F, etc.), achieves the same notes as the Mixolydian and Dorian modes.( with a few bonus notes added). I'm not trying to contradict you, just adding a alternate explanation. A somewhat irrational Dionysian alternative to the traditional Apollonian explanation of modal fiddle tunes. I know my modal keys don't jibe with your training in traditional music theory, but it works for me. As far as food at the restaurant. Can all music be explained by the 12 chromatic keys and all the modes manifested therein?

timfiskwa - Posted - 08/16/2014:  19:41:51

Conrad, I'll sign off here for fear I'll become boorish. Keep an open mind about modal tunes.

Conrad - Posted - 08/17/2014:  05:02:49

I wouldn't say I was necessarily looking for an alternate theory.  Mainly I was hoping to understand what people mean when they apply 'modal'.  I would think or hope that that could be explained with reference to the regular framework of the seven diatonic modes.

Things get interesting when more or less than seven pitches are used or the tonic isn't clear.  Melodic minor is an example.  That pattern is common enough that it has a name, and it is described as a departure from a particular mode, namely Aeolian.  So it is easy to understand and remember with reference to the basic framework.

I've noticed some other patterns that are common, but I don't know whether they have names.  For example a piece with just C D E F G A may be written with either no flats or one flat.  If it comes to rest on D, then it might be considered either Dorian or minor (Aeolian)---or neither if it is considered simply ambiguous.

When I learn a tune, I make note of the mode (if it's clear) and the location in the scale of any accidentals.  That way I hope to pick out the most common patterns.  But oh oh when I've played  through 150 tunes and only say ten percent are non-major-non-minor, I fear it could take forever to catalogue a few patterns on my own.

Edited by - Conrad on 08/17/2014 05:03:22

mad baloney - Posted - 08/17/2014:  07:48:16

Sorry, I was trying to make light of the subject while defining the term.

The biggest misuse of 'modal tune' in old timey music is using the term interchangeably with a grab bag of mixolydian and a handful of dorian tunes. That's why it drives me nuts. I know that once I hear it or see it I'll know which mode they are talking about, but it's not that hard to say A mix or A dorian and the point gets across with no ambiguity.

Another common misuse which comes up with some celtic back-up guitarists is 'modal chord', what they are talking about is 5 chords, chords with no major or minor third also called indeterminate because they aren't major or minor. They work well for backing up tunes that aren't exactly major or minor - they fall under the umbrella of 'modal' tunes - which is the proper use of a term.

Simply saying C modal only says that it's not in major or minor, leaving lots of ambiguity - so much that it basically means nothing until you hear the tune and figure out which mode it's in.

I've never came across a tune that only has a range of C-A, in one or no flats, can you post it?

Conrad - Posted - 08/17/2014:  10:12:51

Brad, I hope you'll be satisfied if I can show the same thing in another key sig. 

Here is sheet for When Johnny Comes Marching Home, ambiguously either A-Dorian or A-Minor.  Note that it has A B C D E G, but no F or F#:  8notes.com/digital_tradition/g...MARCH.gif

Here it is played in the fife intro in one flat or two flats (E and Eb are missing), the tonic being G:  youtube.com/watch?v=T3k8H_9SjoM

Conrad - Posted - 08/17/2014:  10:34:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by mad baloney

I've never came across a tune that only has a range of C-A, in one or no flats, can you post it?

---

I find the following in my notes:

Gilligan's Island (first part is D-Dorian-less-B or D-minor-less-Bb, then it modulates to F-Dorian-less-D or F-minor-minus-Db, but the piece has numerous little fills that I have not analyzed. and there is more than one version)

Sackett's Harbor (A-minor, or A-Dorian, lacks F and F#) youtube.com/watch?v=yV6fx82BaZs

Misty Mountains Cold (minor or Dorian. Checked three guitar versions, and the chords have less than seven pitch classes.  Melody contains six pitch classes)

The Musical Priest

DougD - Posted - 08/17/2014:  11:05:16

You two are talking past each other. Brad thought you meant a tune with a range of only a sixth C to A, but I think you mean only using the notes you listed (no F), regardless of compass. "Johnny Comes Marching Home" actually has a range of an octave. I don't see anything too "ambiguous" about these melodies - they're just based on hexatonic scales, pretty common really.

When a player of American old time music refers to a "modal" tune they just mean one that is neither "major" nor "minor" exactly. Usually this means a flat seventh, and sometimes a flat third, and often (not always) the chord of the lowered seventh is used instead of the V chord (G instead of E in the key of A for example). Although such tunes are often in A, there are plenty in G and D - probably any key.

When old time banjo players refer to "modal" tunings, they usually mean a tuning with no open string for the third. Some form of gDGCD instead of gDGBD for example.

Of course there are specific names for these modes, but that's the way the term is generally used, like it or not.

Edited by - DougD on 08/17/2014 11:07:41

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/17/2014:  14:59:34

I think many folks start with the concept of the more modern major/minor functional harmony (lots of emphasis on major/minor thirds) - so includes being more major/minor chord (triad) emphasized. That can color how folks interpret modal. Modes are not scales.

If you play lot's of Irish music,  get exposed to 1000's of these modal tunes; makes for a great study of modal. One thing about listening lot's of Irish music, it can often be heard without chord accompaniment, many notice is that the tunes and modes have a quality of sound without the triadic chords. While these major/minor chords (and chord progression) can be placed on it; it can distract from the modal; but restricting accompaniment to mostly root/fifth dyads; with occasional use of other interval dyads thrown in doesn't so much. Lot's of OT music follows similar modal concepts of less emphasis on chords (making the old fiddle banjo sound different).

As far as the hexatonic (or even pentatonic) and ambiguity - might seem ambiguous using a filter of functional major/minor rules (esp I, IV, V7); but modes are not scales - there is a quality to these tunes composition that often helps identify what mode it belongs to even before or without the missing note(s). By expanding on the theme a little (improvising) that would include the note, one would seem to fit, the other would seem to change the flavor (even just as a passing note). Not really that ambiguous.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/17/2014:  20:16:18

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T

---

Originally posted by mad baloney

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by timfiskwa

 

Here is edited format



Key of C Modal=(Ionian C and Ionian Bb)







Key of A Modal=(Ionian A and Ionian G)





Same pattern D to C= D Modal and G to F = G Modal

---

There's no such thing as C modal! Or F Modal... or any other key... I don't care what somebody might have told you, they were misinformed or misunderstood. There's dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian and locrian and modal means one of those modes, you need to say which.

It's like telling a waitress you'd like to order some "food" at a restaurant.

BTW you are describing the mixolydian mode in your post, so C mixolydian (or even C mix) it's even shorter than modal.

---

Brad,

I'm not scared of the Greek terms myself, and would prefer to just say "Dorian or Mixolydian".  I generally prefer precise terms.

HOWEVER,

studying different languages has taught me that sometimes, it's best just to "When in Rome, do as the Romans do!".

Or at the least, don't get upset with the Romans for acting like Romans when they're at home in Rome!!!

For better or for worse, language usage is a fairly democratic thing.  Large numbers of people doing the same thing has an effect.

I've encountered a LOT of people using "modal" as a grab-bag term.  What if you found a session that was STELLAR in all respects, except that they used that vague term?  Would you not go back?  Would you correct them right away, and risk offending them before you got to know them?

Or, put it this way- it's not like the term "modal" in the popular usage is totally devoid of useful information.  If someone says "it's a modal tune", you at least know that the sixth note of the scale is like the major scale, and the seventh note is like the full minor scale.  That leaves the third as the variable between mixolydian and dorian, and the third is pretty easy to figure out, especially if you listen to any chord backup instrument.

"Two out of three ain't bad!"

So it's not quite as vague as saying you want food- it's more like saying you'd like some beans, and not specifying which kind!

And then, you have tunes that go from one mode in one part to another mode in another part- like Kitchen Girl goes from Mixolydian to Dorian.  Tunes like that make it hard for me to be annoyed at people saying "It's modal!!!"  I think Chief O'Neill's Favorite hornpipe does the same thing- major third (Mixolydian) in the high part, and a minor third (Dorian) for at least part of the low part.  And there have to be other examples as well.  That ambiguity in the modality is part of the beauty of various traditional musics among the Celtic peoples, but that very ambiguity DOES somewhat invite ambiguous, grab-bag terms.

One aspect of the modes we tend to forget- if I understand correctly, they were different ways of TUNING the lyre, which was one of the dominant Greek instruments of the time.  The lyre had a limited number of strings, and if they wanted a different sound, they had to retune to get it, and so they were locked into the mode for a particular piece of music.   In most cases, however, we are not locked in like that, and the music sometimes reflects that.

I have seen a couple of examples in Old Time music that demonstrate how more precise terms tend to collapse when faced with ambiguity.

In the 1970's, it was common to hear a distinction between bump-ditty banjo with a brush stroke called "frailing" (because that's how Pete Seeger played and was the term he used) and drop thumb banjo with few brush strokes was called "clawhammer".  I found the terms rather useful and rather tidy... but in the years since, it's all become just "clawhammer".

Then you have the distinction between Bluegrass and Old Time.  The term Bluegrass is pretty well known, but the term Old Time is obscure.  There are several problems.

1. Bluegrass and Old Time use the same core instruments.

2.  They both play fiddle tunes and quaint, old-fashioned songs

3. The distinctions sometimes made can be blurry.... they kind of shade into each other.  Some old time bands like Foghorn String band use a three-finger banjo sound that sounds a LOT like Bluegrass.  The John Hartford String Band is very melodic, does not improvise that I can hear.... but they take BREAKS, which is rather un-Old Timey behavior.

4. Add the fact that "Old Time" is also just a term for "old fashioned", and the result is that the likelihood of people remembering that I        don't play Bluegrass but do play Old Time is pretty slim... especially since I've been known to participate in Bluegrass jams!

There are just certain terms that only get used correctly by smaller groups of connoisseurs.... it's basically a form of jargon.

Outside those small groups, AMBIGUITY RULES!

That's life.

Conrad - Posted - 09/14/2014:  00:58:27

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

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Or, put it this way- it's not like the term "modal" in the popular usage is totally devoid of useful information.  If someone says "it's a modal tune", you at least know that the sixth note of the scale is like the major scale, and the seventh note is like the full minor scale.  That leaves the third as the variable between mixolydian and dorian, and the third is pretty easy to figure out, especially if you listen to any chord backup instrument.

...

And then, you have tunes that go from one mode in one part to another mode in another part- like Kitchen Girl goes from Mixolydian to Dorian.  Tunes like that make it hard for me to be annoyed at people saying "It's modal!!!"  I think Chief O'Neill's Favorite hornpipe does the same thing- major third (Mixolydian) in the high part, and a minor third (Dorian) for at least part of the low part.  And there have to be other examples as well.  That ambiguity in the modality is part of the beauty of various traditional musics among the Celtic peoples, but that very ambiguity DOES somewhat invite ambiguous, grab-bag terms.

---

Wow, very simple, clean concept.  Thank you, pogo.  I'm not sure I want to limit it to the Mixo/Dor ambiguity though.  I've seen a lot of Dorian/Aeolian ambiguities too, and maybe some others.

Conrad - Posted - 09/14/2014:  01:05:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conrad

 

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

...

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Or, put it this way- it's not like the term "modal" in the popular usage is totally devoid of useful information.  If someone says "it's a modal tune", you at least know that the sixth note of the scale is like the major scale, and the seventh note is like the full minor scale.  That leaves the third as the variable between mixolydian and dorian, and the third is pretty easy to figure out, especially if you listen to any chord backup instrument.

...

And then, you have tunes that go from one mode in one part to another mode in another part- like Kitchen Girl goes from Mixolydian to Dorian.  Tunes like that make it hard for me to be annoyed at people saying "It's modal!!!"  I think Chief O'Neill's Favorite hornpipe does the same thing- major third (Mixolydian) in the high part, and a minor third (Dorian) for at least part of the low part.  And there have to be other examples as well.  That ambiguity in the modality is part of the beauty of various traditional musics among the Celtic peoples, but that very ambiguity DOES somewhat invite ambiguous, grab-bag terms.

---

Wow, very simple, clean concept.  Thank you, pogo.  I'm not sure I want to limit it to the Mixo/Dor ambiguity though.  I've seen a lot of Dorian/Aeolian ambiguities too, and maybe some others.

Thanks to all for your help on the thread, and please add more as you see fit.

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fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/14/2014:  13:46:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conrad

 

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

...

fiddlehangout.com/global/ckedi.../icon.png) center no-repeat #ff0000;cursor:pointer;top:-1px;-webkit-border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px;border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px" title="Insert paragraph here">↵

Or, put it this way- it's not like the term "modal" in the popular usage is totally devoid of useful information.  If someone says "it's a modal tune", you at least know that the sixth note of the scale is like the major scale, and the seventh note is like the full minor scale.  That leaves the third as the variable between mixolydian and dorian, and the third is pretty easy to figure out, especially if you listen to any chord backup instrument.

...

And then, you have tunes that go from one mode in one part to another mode in another part- like Kitchen Girl goes from Mixolydian to Dorian.  Tunes like that make it hard for me to be annoyed at people saying "It's modal!!!"  I think Chief O'Neill's Favorite hornpipe does the same thing- major third (Mixolydian) in the high part, and a minor third (Dorian) for at least part of the low part.  And there have to be other examples as well.  That ambiguity in the modality is part of the beauty of various traditional musics among the Celtic peoples, but that very ambiguity DOES somewhat invite ambiguous, grab-bag terms.

---

Wow, very simple, clean concept.  Thank you, pogo.  I'm not sure I want to limit it to the Mixo/Dor ambiguity though.  I've seen a lot of Dorian/Aeolian ambiguities too, and maybe some others.

---

You're welcome... yeah, I'm sure there are other modal ambiguities as well- Irish tunes seem to do that kind of thing a lot- but the Dorian/Mixolydian ambiguity is the one that comes up most often in Old Time, and it has a fairly startling effect if the tune is being backed up with chords with the thirds in them, and if the guitarist doesn't use the right third for that part of the tune, discords can happen.

Stergios Loustas - Posted - 03/04/2015:  14:05:48

If you are familiar with the major pentatonic scale then you can use it to create the modal sound. For example, If you want to create a D modal environment, play the C major pentatonic scale against the D chord, (2 semitones below your chord root). By doing this you avoid playing the minor or major third of the D chord thus creating that typical colorless modal sound. You also provide the 4rth and the 9th to complete your beautiful sound image.

Listen to “Ponies in the forest" by John Reischman in his “Up in the Woods” CD. This is a D tune while the melody outlines a C major pentatonic. What you get is:

C (flat 7th)
D (root)
E (9th)
G (4th)
A (5th)

Great tune!

Hope this helps!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/04/2015:  14:43:33

that's what I think of as classic D Dorian feel - used in quite a bit of OT and Irish -

Even though the full Dorian has a minor third (and major sixth) and some tunes might put them in as a bit of filler, the emphasis is not really to make it minor sound - lack of minor emphasis gives that unique quality.

Connie Williams - Posted - 03/04/2015:  16:01:11

What makes a tune modal? A cold, frosty morning..

martynspeck - Posted - 03/04/2015:  16:02:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conrad

 

I see those terms  "modal tune" or "modal music" often, but I don't know what they are supposed to mean.

Before you answer, please believe me that I am well informed about the seven modern diatonic modes and scales.  So please don't bother to give a general explanation of those, as I have explained them to others many times with considerable success.  Those who need a lesson on those can start at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale#Modes

In my mind, any tune that uses all seven pitches and only those seven and has a well-defined tonic is in some mode.  Then are all of those tunes "modal"?

What is it that makes a tune "modal"?

---

Modal just means using one of those other modes.

boxbow - Posted - 03/04/2015:  18:23:14

The term can be used less rigorously to refer to a tune that has a haunting sound, usually accomplished by being, yes, modal in total or in part according to music theory.  The more rigorous use of the term would run afoul of old modal tunes that are played by folks who just wanted to "sound right," and might be inconsistent in their application of a given scale. 

Usage to be determined by context.  It sure sounds like you've got the background to judge the context. 

Most of the modal tunes I play are Dorian or Mixolydian, except when they're not.  Never learned any others, unless you include Major and Minor(s).

Edited by - boxbow on 03/04/2015 18:26:08

dogmageek - Posted - 03/10/2015:  19:56:16

It's just one more tune usually in a minor oriented key that your guitar player can't figure out the chords to.

Edited by - dogmageek on 03/10/2015 19:56:53