fiddledee - Posted - 07/24/2008:  09:42:08

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I am a beginner, and just recently realized that most notes have a definite down or up bowing stroke. I know it makes a difference in the sound, but so far I have not been able to develop that skill when I am learning a song by ear without the notes in front of me.

How important is it to have the correct bow direction when learning a song by ear?

Once I play a song by ear, then look at the musical notes, I find that I am not always bowing correctly. It frustrates me, because once I have learned a song, then find that I should be using a different bow stroke, it is difficult to unlearn.

Any tips would be much appreciated.

fiddledee

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/24/2008:  11:23:08

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fiddledee,

What you're experiencing is normal.
Due to the way the fiddle is held, gravity acts on downstrokes
more strongly than upstrokes.

There are two ways of dealing with this.

One way is to ignore what direction the bow is going and just learn
to compensate by making the downstrokes softer
and the upstrokes stronger.
This is especially true for the many fiddlers who use mostly
Nashville Shuffle. This is also what you have to do if you single-stroke jigs. (most fiddle tunes in 6/8 time are jigs)

The other way is to arrange the slurs so all the accents
go in one direction, and all the non-accented notes go in the
other direction. Many of these fiddlers use a lot of sawstroke.
(Single strokes)
If the accented notes are upstrokes, it's called upstroke fiddling,
if the accented notes are downstrokes, it's called downstroke fiddling, which is what I do.
Upstroke fiddlers go up-down, up-down, and downstroke fiddlers sawstroke down-up, down-up.
This last way is the most common way of dealing with sawstroke.

Depending on which approach a fiddler uses, they will give
you three different kinds of advice on what to do!

The thing to do is figure out who your favorite fiddlers are
(that you want to sound like)
and then find out which bowing approach they use, and learn that.

Some fiddlers will be able to explain and analyze what they are doing, others won't, they just wing it.

It would also help to know what style you are aiming for,
since these 3 approaches tend to be associated more or less with
different styles.

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddledee

I am a beginner, and just recently realized that most notes have a definite down or up bowing stroke. I know it makes a difference in the sound, but so far I have not been able to develop that skill when I am learning a song by ear without the notes in front of me.

How important is it to have the correct bow direction when learning a song by ear?

Once I play a song by ear, then look at the musical notes, I find that I am not always bowing correctly. It frustrates me, because once I have learned a song, then find that I should be using a different bow stroke, it is difficult to unlearn.

Any tips would be much appreciated.

fiddledee

---

Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

scrubber - Posted - 07/24/2008:  11:24:39

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Hello fiddledee!

Down and up strokes have their tendencies (the down bow is generally considered stronger than the up bow) but I don't see this as a problem per se. You've mentioned that you've only discovered your 'error' after looking at printed music -- what has your ear told you before this? Are the accents in the right place? If so, don't worry about one person's 'printed' version of the tune! The important thing (musically) is to ensure that what you are playing properly matches what you are hearing.

TimK - Posted - 07/24/2008:  11:35:54

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I don't think it matters weather you start or end on a down bow or an up bow as long as you are comfortable with your version of a given tune. Most fiddlers try to make a tune "their own" which means to play it as you hear/feel it. Old time fiddle tunes were learned and passed on aurally. In most cases any written score would be the version of the person writing it. Just work out your bowings and play it as you feel it !

TimK

_______________________________________________________________

Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.

fiddlerdi - Posted - 07/24/2008:  13:03:35

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You might try learning a tune by the music first and then go back and try the printed bowings. Not all bowing notation is good or correct but you would gain the opportunity of the feel of the certain bowing patterns and it will make it easier to imitate by ear in the future. You will have to slow down to learn the bowings but then you can gradually speed up to get the feel of the sound. As a beginner you need to gain some bowing technique in order to play what you are hearing in your head. Another easy way to start is to play a G scale and play the first two notes with a down bow and the next two notes separate. then the next two notes with an up bow. After you get that down, try bowing three notes one direction and then two notes in a separate direction, and the next three in the same direction. If you do this playing something like a scale then you don't need to concentrate so hard on your left hand and you can focus on your bow arm.

FiddlerDi

bsed - Posted - 07/24/2008:  15:18:06

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quote:

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Originally posted by TimK

I don't think it matters weather you start or end on a down bow or an up bow as long as you are comfortable with your version of a given tune. Most fiddlers try to make a tune "their own" which means to play it as you hear/feel it. Old time fiddle tunes were learned and passed on aurally. In most cases any written score would be the version of the person writing it. Just work out your bowings and play it as you feel it !

TimK

_______________________________________________________________

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Of all the responses so far, I like TimK's the best. It comes closest to what I would say.
What I would add to that is to learn simple songs or tunes any way you can, by ear or by writ-out music, and don't be overly concerned with where the bow ends up (down or up).
It's best if you have either a recording of your song or else you know in your head how its "supposed" to sound. The trick, then, is to try to imitate that sound any way you can. Once you are good at your intonation and you have real good command of your bow, this all becomes easier.It's a lot to work on, but the fun is in getting there!

Just call me Dwight.

bj - Posted - 07/24/2008:  18:03:17

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Hmm. The experts here seem, to at least a small degree, to be contradicting what I've been taught.

My teacher is teaching me to be a downbower. His reasoning is that in most of the fun fiddling styles where you want to attain speed, whether it be oldtime or Cajun or Celtic, you are following patterns in bowing, and if you want to be able to play fast, you need to develop a good way of patterning your up and down bowing, so you don't get "lost" and you can be consistent in the way you accent the music, and don't end up accenting the same passage differently in different parts of the song. And Steve can play wondrous fast! So for him it works. I want it to work for me someday. He said I'll only really have to "worry" about it for the first year or so, after that I'll be doing it automatically, and indeed it's much less than a year and already starting to happen. I'm still thinking about "downbow on the downbeat", but it's not a brain strain anymore, it comes automatically on all but the passages with unusual rhythms from the rest of the song, where I have to take a bit to figure out an ornament as a workaround. And I can finally see that I will soon thank him for being so obsessive in teaching it to me, though it was a struggle at first.

And if you read all the answers carefully, the advice seems to be that you have a choice of worrying about it now or later. It might be easier to worry about it later, but often bad habits are hard, if not impossible, to break.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

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fiddledee - Posted - 07/24/2008:  18:10:34

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Thanks to all of you for the wonderful advice. I am so excited, I can barely write a thank you. I want to go and try out the songs I have been working on and not worry about the strokes.

I will let you know how I am doing later.

This is such a wonderful site. I am in an area where no one else is learning the fiddle, and there are very few guitar players. So I am doing this with the help of instructional DVDs. So far I am quite happy with my progress.

Thanks again. I am printing all of your replys and will refer to them as I practice.

fiddledee

Dick Hauser - Posted - 07/24/2008:  18:12:21

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For me, bow direction for phrases often changes as I become better acquainted with a tune and start making changes. From what I have read and learned, there doesn't appear to a "correct" bow direction. In fact, I have read notation that FORCED the player to change bow direction. This is done to give the tune a little variety. The notes may sound a little different, but the correct will be played (assuming your left hand fingers the note the same way each time).

Are you sure the melody in your head matches the written melody ? If you are playing the melody in your head, why go back to the notation ? I use notation to learn the basic melody, but after I have memorized the melody, I don't go back to notation unless I have to relearn a tune.

I don't think changing bowing direction will cause a person to play the wrong note. The quality and/or sound of a note might change, but the note shouldn't sound incorrect.

I would just stop worrying about bow direction. If you have memorized the melody, just start figuring out how to play the melody. The melody in your head and your playing skills should end up determining bow direction. As your playing skills improve, the way you play tunes will change. Your bowing will probably change as long as you play the fiddle.

gulfguy

woodwiz - Posted - 07/24/2008:  18:34:32

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I've been advised two ways, and I'm learning both of them.

Some tell me that it's good to be able to sound the same no matter which way you bow, and that's my main approach to bowing. If you are in the middle of a tune, especially while improvising or playing a BG break, it's really easy to get off a set bowing pattern, so I think it's a really good idea to be able to play anything with a variety of bowings and still get the effect you want. Also, the kind of playing I like best is very "notey" with a lot of mixed up bowings, and it's not groove oriented, so it often doesn't lend itself to downbow fiddling. In order to keep the drive and danceability in the music, you have to be able to play strong accents no matter what the bow direction.

On the other hand, I'm getting ready to enter some fiddle contests, and I had the opportunity to spend a little time with Junior Marriott a little while back. He's played a LOT of contests. He's adamant about the idea that in contest fiddling, you won't win over the judges unless you have a strong downbow accent on the beat in 2/4, or on the 1 and 3 if you are thinking in 4/4. I'm trying his theory out on a couple of tunes, specifically Stinnett's version of Durang's Hornpipe, Charlie Walden's version of Fiddler's Dream, and Bob Walters' version of Frisky Jim. They seem to lend themselves to downbow fiddling pretty well, and I want to see whether I can get more pronounced accents and more drive that way.

I think overall, you are better off if you are able to play any bowing comfortably unless you are focusing very narrowly on a simple, groove oriented style that doesn't require more complex bowing. The more tools you have at your disposal, the more different things you can do. Building more vocabulary is seldom a mistake, and I don't see how it can lead to bad habits. Certainly, using mixed bowings these past few years hasn't hindered me from limiting myself to downbowing on tunes where I want it - although I'll probably learn and practice even them with a number of different bowings just for variety's sake.

I discussed this briefly with a student of Pete Macmahan, and he briefly told me about some of MacMahan's bowing "tricks". I'm beginning to believe I'm just scratching the surface of bowing, even if it's just for fiddling. Watching Kenny Baker and Buddy McMaster videos just reinforces that impression.

Michael R

kcstrings.com
"Together, we create"

"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/24/2008:  21:35:23

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quote:

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Originally posted by bj

Hmm. The experts here seem, to at least a small degree, to be contradicting what I've been taught.

My teacher is teaching me to be a downbower. His reasoning is that in most of the fun fiddling styles where you want to attain speed, whether it be oldtime or Cajun or Celtic, you are following patterns in bowing, and if you want to be able to play fast, you need to develop a good way of patterning your up and down bowing, so you don't get "lost" and you can be consistent in the way you accent the music, and don't end up accenting the same passage differently in different parts of the song. And Steve can play wondrous fast! So for him it works. I want it to work for me someday. He said I'll only really have to "worry" about it for the first year or so, after that I'll be doing it automatically, and indeed it's much less than a year and already starting to happen. I'm still thinking about "downbow on the downbeat", but it's not a brain strain anymore, it comes automatically on all but the passages with unusual rhythms from the rest of the song, where I have to take a bit to figure out an ornament as a workaround. And I can finally see that I will soon thank him for being so obsessive in teaching it to me, though it was a struggle at first.

And if you read all the answers carefully, the advice seems to be that you have a choice of worrying about it now or later. It might be easier to worry about it later, but often bad habits are hard, if not impossible, to break.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

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I was trying to give an objective overview...
but the truth is, I agree with your teacher 100%.
I also can go "wondrously fast"... but I'm convinced
the virtue is not in me but in the downbowing approach- it's so efficient
that it lends itself to speed- partly because it lends itself
to a relaxed wrist, which is also conducive to speed.
I don't play fast all the time, but it's nice to have it in reserve:
1. In case the jam speeds up.
2. as an occasional crowd pleaser at gigs
3. If you play for a dance and the dancers want it fast you can give it to them.

Due to downbowing, now my only hangup in going fast is the left hand-
once I get that down, I can let 'er rip- if I want to.
I have also found that since becoming a downbower,
I almost never get "lost"in the bowing.... like it might happen once a month,
instead of every time I pick up the fiddle like it used to!
I also feel that I have much better rhythmic control- I can put the accent where I want to, when I want to, to "play drums with the bow".

You have missed some of the more intense bowing discussions here, but as you see from your teacher, we downbowers can be
very passionate about the virtues of the approach... but the fact is, we are a minority, at least in Old Time.
I'm weary of being the "point man" for downbowing here-
thanks for piping up!

Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

bj - Posted - 07/25/2008:  06:05:36

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quote:

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I'm weary of being the "point man" for downbowing here-
thanks for piping up!

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LOL! You're welcome!

quote:

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it's so efficient
that it lends itself to speed

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This is the point Steve keeps stressing, along with the flexible wrist and making me play with my elbow glued to the doorjam. In watching him, when he's absolutely smoking through a passage, it sometimes seems his bowing arm is hardly moving at all between his shoulder and his elbow, and if he's playing on a single string for awhile his motion is all in the fingers, and his forearm is rock stable. He's all about economy of movement. And downbowing falls right into that.

The lesson I had where I came home, practiced, and made the breakthrough with all this bow direction stuff, I can remember when, at the lesson, I got so frustrated with it that I whined something like, "Geez, this is so HARD, it's too many things to remember at once! Bow direction, bow speed, bow angle, bow pressure, AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!" at which point Steve came right back with, "I'm trying to make it EASIER for you, not HARD."

He was right. It is easier. At least it is now that it "clicked".

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Me on the Web --
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Edited by - bj on 07/25/2008 06:11:31

Monkey - Posted - 07/30/2008:  07:57:39

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>making me play with my elbow glued to the doorjam
Been there... With me it was having my elbow mounted to the lid of a grand piano while learning to get a clean spicatto. It was the random string crossing that hung me up. The key for me was to figure out how change the angle of the bow early - before you actually hit the adjacent string.

>his motion is all in the fingers, and his forearm is rock stable.
Look again. I'd be surprised to if the bulk of the movement is coming from the wrist. Think back to "economy of movement".

>He's all about economy of movement. And downbowing falls right into that.
I'm not familiar with the term "downbowing". If you are attempting to play regularly recurring accents on upbows on a majority of your tunes, I'd guess you are probably doing something odd that is going to hinder your playing in the long run. You can't get "economy of motion" if your working against the fact that a downbow provides the accent for you automatically. You need to figure out how to make the bow work for you without losing the character of the style of music you are playing.

One other thing to consider... If you ever want to play cleanly with other string players, you need to be using the same patterns. It can be well worth your while to learn how people commonly approach bowing for the styles of music you are interested in. So try and find an approach that is flexible rather than taking one extreme.

bj - Posted - 07/30/2008:  08:10:22

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Monkey, if you read Fiddlepogo's posts on bowing you'll "get" what downbowing is. In a nutshell, it's downbow on the downbeat.

I believe, after watching her a whole lot, that Rayna Gellert is a downbower . . .

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scrubber - Posted - 07/30/2008:  11:07:03

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quote:

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Originally posted by Monkey
So try and find an approach that is flexible rather than taking one extreme.

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I agree with Monkey!

What we have to consider here is who is in control! Is it gravity? An obtuse rule about what way the bow should move?? What about the musical demands of any given passage in a fiddle tune? Am I to bow contrary to instinct because of an abstract rule??

It is very important to know what kind of sound/accent you want to produce at any given moment when fiddlin' a tune, but it is equally important to be flexible when choosing the means whereby this is achieved! Fiddlers should equip themselves to enable absolute control, regardless of tempo, bow direction, indigestion, etc...

How does one do this? Practice, practice, practice... (And perhaps a proper diet)!

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Edited by - scrubber on 07/30/2008 11:10:54

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/30/2008:  11:36:09

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Actually bj, it's a little more complex than that-
it's downbow wherever the accent is, which is very <often> the downbeat,
but also could be the backbeat (Georgia Shuffle).

I am not sure if Rayna is a downbower or not-
I know she knows how- there is one video of hers where I'm almost sure she's doing classic downbowing.
But there are other videos where it's less obvious, where she's doing what I call "bidirectional" patterns
that are farther away from classic downbowing, especially Nashville Shuffle.
But she probably usually starts on a downbow.

And to make it more confusing, there are two definitions of downbowing.

Suppose you have a fiddler who uses Nashville Shuffle exclusively.
Nashville Shuffle puts the accents in both directions, so by that definition it's not downbowing.
But if the fiddler starts the eight note Nashville pattern on a downbow, then it will end on an upbow,
and then it is downbowing by the other definition.

Monkey is right about needing to use the same patterns as other fiddlers to blend with them cleanly.
In the 1970s there were two vagabond hippy fiddlers named Hubbard & Molk that were both classic downbowers
and had a great twin fiddle sound, partly because they were using almost the same bowing patterns.
There's a local violinist that does Nashville Shuffle on fiddle tunes, and when I play with her, I am inclined to try
and play Nashville Shuffle too, because my normal bowing doesn't mesh well with her Nashville at all.

One factor that <might> be working against the popularity of downbowing is the popularity of crooked tunes.
If there are an odd number of measures, which is likely, it would also likely that the bow directions would get reversed too. As a downbower, I've developed a strategy for this (start the measure on an upbow on a Georgia Shuffle), but since Nashville can be started from either direction, I think many fiddlers just go that route.
I think it is a popular strategy for crooked tunes.

So if you end up jamming with your teacher and his other students a lot, you will naturally find your bowings compatible with them. But you may find yourself in jams, even locally, where the bowing style is very different,
and you might want to adapt.
But we can cross that bridge when we come to it!

Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

bj - Posted - 07/31/2008:  10:01:57

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quote:

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If there are an odd number of measures, which is likely, it would also likely that the bow directions would get reversed too.

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Steve devoted one whole lesson to easy mechanisms to cope with this. This, to me, is the flimsiest of reasons to get off a downbowing track.

For the record, downbowing is how I'm being taught by someone I respect a whole lot. Why do I respect him? I've heard and seen him play up close and personal, and his playing is incredibly rhythmic, can be breathtakingly freaking LIGHTNING fast, and is *** always emotionally compelling ***. I'm not going to argue with him when he keeps insisting that downbowing is one of the key ingredients to achieving this. His results are too incredible and too consistent for me to even consider an argument. If y'all used a different road and achieved the same results, well great. But I've already seen that there is huge benefit in the downbowing technique, and will be going down this road a lot further before I decide to fork off it for awhile, and when I do explore other bowing techniques it will be from a solid base of knowing what downbowing is and how/why it works.

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Monkey - Posted - 07/31/2008:  11:00:25

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I guess I'm a downbower then. I always prefer to start a phrase such that the first note to fall on the beat would be a downbow.

Crooked tunes - in general tunes with phrases that don't have an even number of "divisions" so you end up with up bows starting at the beginning of the next phrase where us "downbowers" would want to start with down bow. Rather than start the preceding phrase upside down (with a upbow) to fix the "crooked" phrase, I would typically do one of two things. Slur the very end of the phrase as a downbow into the next so you start the next phrase on a downbow. You can push on a bow a bit to get an accent in place of the separation the bow change would have given you, or at slower tempos, actually stop the bow just briefly. The other thing I would do is find a place in crooked phrase to perform 2 up bows in a row. Again, stopping the bow just enough to simulate the separation. It's actually a lot easier to execute cleanly on an up stroke since you don't have weight of the end of the bow pushing in the direction you need to stop.

There have been situations where I've forced myself to work out particular phrase with backwards bowing, trying to get an optimal phrasing. Every time I put one of those away and then play it several months or years later I get stung and have to work through it all over again. It never seems to be worth it in the long run.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/31/2008:  20:29:50

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Again, bj,
I, least of all am trying to persuade you not to downbow!

quote:

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Originally posted by bj

quote:

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If there are an odd number of measures, which is likely, it would also likely that the bow directions would get reversed too.

---

Steve devoted one whole lesson to easy mechanisms to cope with this. This, to me, is the flimsiest of reasons to get off a downbowing track.

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I've got one mechanism-
I'd love to hear some others!

Again, I'm not necessarily advocating that-
just trying to understand how the other 7/8's of Old Time fiddlers live,
and why.

quote:

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For the record, downbowing is how I'm being taught by someone I respect a whole lot. Why do I respect him? I've heard and seen him play up close and personal, and his playing is incredibly rhythmic, can be breathtakingly freaking LIGHTNING fast, and is *** always emotionally compelling ***

---

Pity you all live on the other side of the continent-
I'd like to hear him- nay, even JAM with him!
Sounds like my goals for fiddling in a nutshell!

quote:

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I'm not going to argue with him when he keeps insisting that downbowing is one of the key ingredients to achieving this. His results are too incredible and too consistent for me to even consider an argument. If y'all used a different road and achieved the same results, well great. But I've already seen that there is huge benefit in the downbowing technique, and will be going down this road a lot further before I decide to fork off it for awhile, and when I do explore other bowing techniques it will be from a solid base of knowing what downbowing is and how/why it works.

---

And I'm not arguing with that, at all.
It works for me too.
BUT at the same time, when I watch fiddling videos on YouTube,
it's obvious we are in the minority- and some people break
ALL our downbowing rules, and still manage to make some
mighty fine fiddle music!
I don't necessarily want to play like them-
I've got my own style that works for me,
and I kind of LIKE having a style that's a bit out of the ordinary,
but you gotta understand I'm a fiddle geek
as well as a fiddler, and I just LOVE to analyze this
stuff- drives some people nuts!
Also, in a sense, I may be starting to do some of what you describe
at the end- I have a solid base in downbowing,
and I want to see if I can't integrate a few bi-direction shuffle patterns
for a different flavor- like I'm starting to do some Quebecois tunes,
and some of them just demand a Nashville Shuffle, something
I never thought I'd go back to.

I guess what it boils down to is that for me, the melody rules-
if downbowing enhances the melody (and for me it does in most cases) then downbowing is the way to go. But if I find a melody
that seems to demand a different approach, and I love that tune
enough, well, then I'm willing to try a different approach.

Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

bj - Posted - 07/31/2008:  21:25:45

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One of the tricks is to just throw in ONE potatoes shuffle pattern (Long-Short-Short-Long-Short-Short) in a suitable place, since that sets you on the opposites from where you started and adds in a bit of an ornament to make things interesting, and is the one I haven't succeeded with yet, since it seems my shuffle is either stuck on or off. Another way is to pulse the last two notes in the same bow direction OR pulse the last and first, like Monkey said. Another is, on a last note in the measure to simply break it into two sawed notes. And the last is to throw a GA shuffle in for one long note.

I've watched him and seen a bunch of other stuff he does but it's too complicated yet for me to fully understand or analyze enough to write down. When he's doing the celtic stuff a lot of it has to do with the ornaments he's hanging on the tunes that put the bowing back the way it's "supposed to be". It doesn't look or sound that way since he's very fluid, but it's very calculated so he's always getting back to downbowing on the downbeat.

One thing I should mention. My teacher, plays oldtime and plays it well. But it's not what he plays all the time. He plays Celtic/Irish and Cajun most of the time. And unlike others I've heard who try to break out of one style and make their next chosen style sound like their original style, Steve has the chops and sound down in each one.

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Edited by - bj on 07/31/2008 21:28:30

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/01/2008:  02:17:02

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bj,

Thanks for sharing those- I guess I know two then (two sawed notes and a GA shuffle),
the 1/2 Nashville Shuffle makes sense... "now why didn't I think of that?" DOH!
That leaves pulsing... hmmm.... I need to work on pulsing...

Oh well- pity he's not more into Old Time. No accounting for taste, is there?

Sigh... these people that USE Old Time as a stepping stone
to allegedly bigger and better things...
oh, the tragedy of it all!

Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

dlight - Posted - 08/01/2008:  04:39:57

---

I hear ya, Michael; old time has its adherents, as does every style of music. Me, I'm more of a generalist in that I don't play any style exclusively. That's just me; the world of music is too big and too wonderful to limit myself to one style, or even to one instrument, although violin is my passion at the moment.

I guess I'm on a "journey" for which there really is no "destination". There are days (usually Tuesdays, believe it or not!) when I feel like playing Old Time, but other days my tastes may shift to, say, Cape Breton, or Scottish, or a bit of Irish. Still other days, it's jazz or "Hot Club" swing, or blues, or even Broadway or American songbook. I've been known to delve into Bach and Beethoven, or to spend time with Kreutzer and his etudes. I don't wear the same clothes every day, or eat the same food, or talk to the same people, or even make love the same way!

Maybe it's a function of my age (58), but right now I'm out to "live each day to the fullest", to miss nothing that's within my grasp. In a small way, my fiddling is part of that philosophy. No one pattern or approach to bowing fits every style of music, although I've come to see that certain basic concepts such as wrist looseness and economy of movement are applicable across a wide spectrum of styles, including classical.

I like to think of myself as a "lifelong learner"; the more I learn, the more I want to learn! That's the great thing about forums like this one; seldom do I visit here and not come away with some new concept to ponder or work on! If I go to bed at night without having learned something new that day, I see it as a day wasted! Like Dion, "I'm a wanderer...I roam around and 'round and 'round...."

Practice makes perfect, but since nobody''s perfect, why bother??

bj - Posted - 08/01/2008:  19:16:05

---

quote:

---

Sigh... these people that USE Old Time as a stepping stone
to allegedly bigger and better things...
oh, the tragedy of it all!

---

LOL! Yeah, well, he played out in Irish Pubs all over the State of NJ -- 17 gigs during the month of March! That's in addition to his day job. And now he has a brand new Harley sitting in his driveway . . .

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
doneinstyle.com

My inspiration:
pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

PeachyPicker08 - Posted - 08/21/2008:  22:33:01

---

Well playing tablature with markings for up and down really helped to make that happen more naturally for me on the fiddle and mandolin.

PeachyPicker08

Sue B. - Posted - 08/31/2008:  09:19:29

---

Some random points. 1) There are down bow fiddlers, and up bow fiddlers. Seems to run strongly to downbow=stronger beat, but a percentage of players just reverse everything pretty naturally. 2) Players with relatively keen ears can hear bowings, not just stronger versus weaker notes, but what is played as a separate stroke and what is slurred together. Some of the teachers who favor a particular older fiddler's style do this thoroughly and carefully, so it can be worth getting to a camp or workshop where they will be teaching. 3) There are rules of common practice for bowings in the classical world. This can be helpful or detrimental for learning fiddle tunes, depending on what fiddling style a classical player wants to take up. 4) For beginners, there is nothing wrong with learning tunes with a basic down-up stroke and playing them that way roughly forever, especially if you go with tunes played so commonly that a different accenting won't sound wrong. As you advance, you may be able to add more complex bowings to your repertoire, especially if you get some lessons with an expert. Sue B.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/31/2008:  10:36:27

---

There are definitely those two camps, but in addition,
there is the "whichever way it turns out" camp which seems to be very common among both Appalachian and Ozark fiddlers.
On one phrase they might look like an downbow fiddler, on another,
an upbow fiddler. If your style is centered around Nashville Shuffle,
you are kind of doing this anyway, since Nashville features the same rhythmic pattern played in two directions.
It's just extending the same bowing logic to other patterns.
I call it "Bidirectional" bowing.
Once you start doing this, though, it's easy to get yourself tangled up,
and I've heard GOOD bidirectional fiddlers get tangled up this way.
Some fiddlers can shift styles- on most of the videos I've seen,
Rayna Gellert looks to be a bidirectional bower, but on one,
she looked just like a downbow fiddler.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sue B.

Some random points. 1) There are down bow fiddlers, and up bow fiddlers. Seems to run strongly to downbow=stronger beat, but a percentage of players just reverse everything pretty naturally. 2) Players with relatively keen ears can hear bowings, not just stronger versus weaker notes, but what is played as a separate stroke and what is slurred together. Some of the teachers who favor a particular older fiddler's style do this thoroughly and carefully, so it can be worth getting to a camp or workshop where they will be teaching. 3) There are rules of common practice for bowings in the classical world. This can be helpful or detrimental for learning fiddle tunes, depending on what fiddling style a classical player wants to take up. 4) For beginners, there is nothing wrong with learning tunes with a basic down-up stroke and playing them that way roughly forever, especially if you go with tunes played so commonly that a different accenting won't sound wrong. As you advance, you may be able to add more complex bowings to your repertoire, especially if you get some lessons with an expert. Sue B.

---

Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

OTJunky - Posted - 08/31/2008:  11:28:35

---

quote:

---

fiddlepogo wrote:

Once you start doing this, though, it's easy to get yourself tangled up,
and I've heard GOOD bidirectional fiddlers get tangled up this way.

---

As Benny Thomasson said, "Half the fun is fiddling yourself into a corner, then getting out of it"...

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/31/2008:  13:42:09

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

quote:

---

fiddlepogo wrote:

Once you start doing this, though, it's easy to get yourself tangled up,
and I've heard GOOD bidirectional fiddlers get tangled up this way.

---

As Benny Thomasson said, "Half the fun is fiddling yourself into a corner, then getting out of it"...

--OTJ

---

With all due respect to Benny (he was certainly one of the goodest!)
I can do <without> that kind of fun!
I enjoy getting edgey in other ways with my fiddling, but getting
a whole phrase turned around and trying to fiddle it backwards?
No thanks! Not if I can help it!

Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

woodwiz - Posted - 08/31/2008:  15:28:57

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

I enjoy getting edgey in other ways with my fiddling, but getting
a whole phrase turned around and trying to fiddle it backwards?
No thanks! Not if I can help it!

---

It's really no big deal if you get used to throwing accents in both directions, and it's an absolute necessity for me when I try to improvise on the fly. One of the first pieces of advice I got from a really good bluegrass fiddler was to cultivate the ability to do this. It's easy enough to get "back on track" pretty quickly by just separately bowing two notes that you normally slur, or vice versa. When you are trying to improvise a break to a song you never played before, trying to remember the melody and chords to play off of, worrying about bow directions is that last thing you want to be doing.

I've been jamming with some "big boys (and girls)" lately, so this lesson gets driven home a lot.........

Michael R

kcstrings.com
"Together, we create"

"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/02/2008:  10:59:33

---

I can see how that makes sense for some,
but the thing is, for a real downbow fiddler, the downbowing
is instinctive, i.e., you're not worrying about it.
And from what I've seen, think there are also downbowing bluegrass fiddlers too.
Also, on rare occasions I DO get turned around-
the latest time was at a gig yesterday where I was playing a tune
or song air, probably a request, that I wasn't familiar with.
In my head I started to panic, but then watched myself use the turnaround
strategy that has become instinctive- if I start on an upbow,
I downstroke the next backbeat, and then I'm re-oriented again.
And the tune went on without a significant hitch.
I don't improvise THAT often on fiddle, but I think it would work the same way.

quote:

---

Originally posted by woodwiz

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

I enjoy getting edgey in other ways with my fiddling, but getting
a whole phrase turned around and trying to fiddle it backwards?
No thanks! Not if I can help it!

---

It's really no big deal if you get used to throwing accents in both directions, and it's an absolute necessity for me when I try to improvise on the fly. One of the first pieces of advice I got from a really good bluegrass fiddler was to cultivate the ability to do this. It's easy enough to get "back on track" pretty quickly by just separately bowing two notes that you normally slur, or vice versa. When you are trying to improvise a break to a song you never played before, trying to remember the melody and chords to play off of, worrying about bow directions is that last thing you want to be doing.

I've been jamming with some "big boys (and girls)" lately, so this lesson gets driven home a lot.........

Michael R

---

Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

mike jarboe - Posted - 09/10/2008:  06:07:17

---

I'm with TimK on this. I don't try to overintellectualize this music. I just play it (or try to play it).

bsed - Posted - 09/10/2008:  14:53:45

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mike jarboe

I'm with TimK on this. I don't try to overintellectualize this music. I just play it (or try to play it).

---

I'll second (or third) that. The only time I try to analyze bowing to a great extent is when I'm trying to "do it" just like the master (e.g. Clyde Davenport).
I guess there are a few other times when I'll try to deconstruct what I'm doing (or not succeeding) in doing. A good case-in-point is when I play Ragtime Annie. If I remember right (I don't have a fiddle in my hand now) I think I often end up the 'B' part on a down bow when I would prefer to be on an up bow so that I can start the 'A' part on a good up bow for the beginning triplet, and then---BAM---I've got a good down stroke I can really lean into.
But if it doesn't come out, I just make an adjustment on the fly, which isn't hard to do.

Just call me Dwight.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/10/2008:  21:34:33

---

I agree that it IS possible to overintellectualize the music-
for one thing, the analytical part of the brain is too slow to keep
up with a fast-paced fiddle tune- at least it is with me!

BUT face it, EVERYBODY who ever learned Nashville Shuffle
analyzed it as long-short-short, long-short-short, did it slowly,
sped it up, got it smooth, applied it to a tune and did it all the way through a tune, then worked on that tune till it was smooth, then applied it to another tune, and another, and another.
That's not rocket science, is it?

Well, I'm just saying you have to repeat that process
for any other shuffle you want to learn.
Syncoshuffle is short-long-short, long-short-short-
very similar to Nashville, just the first section has the lengths
of the second and third strokes switched.
Do it slowly, get it smooth, find a tune where you can use it most of the time, and repeat that tune until it flows...
THEN...
after a while Syncoshuffle will creep in to any part of any tune that
reminds you of that tune you first learned to apply Syncoshuffle on.
Don't analyze where to put it, just FEEL where it's supposed to go,
it's quicker.

And you just repeat that process for any new shuffle.
Get it smooth and under control, and you'll find yourself just
seat-of-your-pants intuiting where it should go.

The problem with people who never want to think about shuffles
as distinct entities, is that you can't get something smooth and
efficient if you don't repeat it- and how can you repeat something
when you don't even know what it is, don't have a name for it, nothing?

I tell ya, Syncoshuffle (aka Tommy's Shuffle) was a HARD one
for me to get- no way could I intuit myself into that one-
Tom Sauber showed me that at a party once for which I am so grateful- it took years of practicing it until it finally clicked, but when it did- oh, what a cool shuffle!

The analytical part of our brains is slow, but it's useful
for teaching yourself (and other people) stuff.
And when your learning a new shuffle, it's gonna be slow anyway,
so that's a really good time to analyze.
At some point it becomes second nature and you stop thinking about it, just like driving with a manual transmission.

If you want to practice efficiently YOU HAVE TO ANALYZE WHERE
THE PROBLEMS ARE, and practice those parts.
Practice Smart!

It's also good to know when to stop analyzing and just do it-
to everything there is a season...



Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

woodwiz - Posted - 09/10/2008:  22:10:38

---

I've been jamming and going to fiddle contests a LOT since this discussion started, and watching good fiddlers very closely. Out of maybe a hundred I've watched, I have yet to see anyone who doesn't throw accents in both directions, sometimes multiple accents without changing bow direction.

The closest I've seen to a downbow fiddler was a guy who played one tune downbow style, and then started doing multiple accents in a single bow stroke a la Kenny Baker and Pete MacMahan on the very next tune. Even the guy who preaches downbow fiddling doesn't actually do it, since he's a Texas style contest fiddler.

It may be just a local phenomenon, but you just don't see very many rigid bowing patterns in the parts of Missouri and the Ozarks that I've been around lately.

Michael R

kcstrings.com
"Together, we create"

"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/10/2008:  23:02:15

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by woodwiz

I've been jamming and going to fiddle contests a LOT since this discussion started, and watching good fiddlers very closely. Out of maybe a hundred I've watched, I have yet to see anyone who doesn't throw accents in both directions, sometimes multiple accents without changing bow direction.

The closest I've seen to a downbow fiddler was a guy who played one tune downbow style, and then started doing multiple accents in a single bow stroke a la Kenny Baker and Pete MacMahan on the very next tune. Even the guy who preaches downbow fiddling doesn't actually do it, since he's a Texas style contest fiddler.

It may be just a local phenomenon, but you just don't see very many rigid bowing patterns in the parts of Missouri and the Ozarks that I've been around lately.

Michael R

---

It may be a regional phenomenon... or it may be a generational phenomenon.
I started fiddling in the early 70's, then moved to a small Northern California town, then another, and I was out of touch with the fiddling scene for decades- 3 decades to be exact.
A real Rip Van Winkle scenario, and then some.
And I saw lots more downbow fiddling going on back then, and I was nowhere near
as aware of downbowing as I am now-
I have a DVD with footage of Earl Collins, a Missouri style fiddler,
and he <definitely> looks like a downbow fiddler to me.

Now, wherever I look, it's like "Where did all the downbow fiddlers go?"

For instance, somebody gave a link to a Kentucky fiddling site,
and they were virtually all what I call "bidirectional" fiddlers.
Only one fellow among them that looked like a downbower, and he
was the youngest one.

The thing is, I remember that among older fiddlers I saw like Mel Durham and Earl Collins, it seemed that sawstroke was more common than anything else, and other patterns were used as flavoring. I was aware that in the 70's, fiddlers my age were mostly
doing Nashville Shuffle, unless they were heavy into the Skillet Lickers, then they might be doing Georgia Shuffle.
Apparently while I was "asleep" for 30 years, that didn't change,
it only got more pervasive... and that's what you are seeing.

The main exception I've seen is Brad Leftwich-
he was a bidirectional Nashville based fiddler when his YouTube
material was made, but has since gone "downbow".
He associates, or associated a lot with Tom Sauber (who learned a lot from Earl Collins and Mel Durham) so I'm guessing Tom Sauber is a downbower too. Hawk Hubbard is still alive and fiddling in Florida I hear, and and

Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/10/2008:  23:02:36

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by woodwiz

I've been jamming and going to fiddle contests a LOT since this discussion started, and watching good fiddlers very closely. Out of maybe a hundred I've watched, I have yet to see anyone who doesn't throw accents in both directions, sometimes multiple accents without changing bow direction.

The closest I've seen to a downbow fiddler was a guy who played one tune downbow style, and then started doing multiple accents in a single bow stroke a la Kenny Baker and Pete MacMahan on the very next tune. Even the guy who preaches downbow fiddling doesn't actually do it, since he's a Texas style contest fiddler.

It may be just a local phenomenon, but you just don't see very many rigid bowing patterns in the parts of Missouri and the Ozarks that I've been around lately.

Michael R

---

It may be a regional phenomenon... or it may be a generational phenomenon.
I started fiddling in the early 70's, then moved to a small Northern California town, then another, and I was out of touch with the fiddling scene for decades- 3 decades to be exact.
A real Rip Van Winkle scenario, and then some.
And I saw lots more downbow fiddling going on back then, and I was nowhere near
as aware of downbowing as I am now-
I have a DVD with footage of Earl Collins, a Missouri style fiddler,
and he <definitely> looks like a downbow fiddler to me.

Now, wherever I look, it's like "Where did all the downbow fiddlers go?"

For instance, somebody gave a link to a Kentucky fiddling site,
and they were virtually all what I call "bidirectional" fiddlers.
Only one fellow among them that looked like a downbower, and he
was the youngest one.

The thing is, I remember that among older fiddlers I saw like Mel Durham and Earl Collins, it seemed that sawstroke was more common than anything else, and other patterns were used as flavoring. I was very aware that in the 70's, most fiddlers my age were mostly
doing Nashville Shuffle, unless they were heavy into the Skillet Lickers, then they might be doing Georgia Shuffle.
Apparently while I was "asleep" for 30 years, the dominance of Nashville didn't change,
it only got more pervasive... and that's what you are seeing.

The main exception I've seen is Brad Leftwich-
he was a bidirectional Nashville based fiddler when his YouTube
material was made, but has since gone "downbow".
He associates, or associated a lot with Tom Sauber (who learned a lot from Earl Collins and Mel Durham) so I'm guessing Tom Sauber is a downbower too. Hawk Hubbard is still alive and fiddling in Florida I hear, and I would guess he's still a downbower- he's really
the one who inspired be to become a downbower.
And I think Alan Jabbour is a downbower.
I can't think of any others that I've seen that have solid roots in Old Time. Occasionally I see a Bluegrass or a Contest or a Celtic fiddler that's a downbower... it has some real advantages if you want
to play complex melodies cleanly.

Anyway, these generational things happen in fiddling-
Tommy Jarrell evidently played a lot of tunes that his father didn't play, and mentioned that certain tunes would come into style
in his area at certain times. It wasn't static.

For better or worse, I'm a downbow fiddler.
Actually I think it's better- I don't want to play just like everybody else,
"the road less travelled", ya know,
and I feel like it gives me an edge on hornpipey tunes, which I like.
However, I am learning some Quebecois tunes that really
need Nashville Shuffle, so who knows, they may yet convert me!

Michael

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

---

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/10/2008 23:19:04

FiddleJammer - Posted - 12/30/2008:  06:32:26

---

In an attempt to preserve a thread about upbowing and downbowing, I'm giving this a bump.

Hey, all......

HEAR'S A THREAD ABOUT UPBOWING AND DOWNBOWING.

:-)

Cheers,

Terri

tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
fiddlejammer.blogspot.com

M-D - Posted - 12/30/2008:  07:29:18

---

I down-bow. I up-bow. Therefore, I bow.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Old-Time, All the Time

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

John Gent - Posted - 12/30/2008:  07:33:52

---

It all depends on which way my bow happens to be traveling.





- John
Eugene, Oregon, USA

Tunetaster - Posted - 12/30/2008:  08:20:28

---

If I haven't weighed in on this yet - how could that be possible given the amount of air time this subject has gotten recently - I am pursuing the downbowing approach.
The reason for me is that I am led to believe that it has some deep roots in traditional OT music - so if this 'heritage' were to be abandoned, it would be a loss.
I have heard some great downbowers and I want to emulate their sound.
I would have been more insistent that it is the "best" approach, but I have seen people that CAN PLAY who don't use this approach (mostly, Dan).
I guess the mechanics of playing should be aimed at getting "the sound". One serves the other - so, the mechanics of playing is a means to an end which is 'getting the sound' -
and this is an argument for any of the approaches mentioned above.
Somehow, I still feel that the downbowing approach is "the way". This is what I am giving myself to and I am beginning to see some pleasant results.

I am surprised to hear that Celtic fiddlers use downbowing. Is this true? always- across the board or sometimes; by a few? Hmmm.

Ron

TimK - Posted - 12/30/2008:  08:23:36

---

There seems to be both an upside and a downside to this topic

_______________________________________________________________

Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.

M-D - Posted - 12/30/2008:  09:25:04

---

Oh, my.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Old-Time, All the Time

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

TimK - Posted - 12/30/2008:  09:34:05

---

STOP

_______________________________________________________________

Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.

---

Edited by - TimK on 12/30/2008 09:34:49

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/02/2009:  13:18:19

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tunetaster

If I haven't weighed in on this yet - how could that be possible given the amount of air time this subject has gotten recently - I am pursuing the downbowing approach.
The reason for me is that I am led to believe that it has some deep roots in traditional OT music - so if this 'heritage' were to be abandoned, it would be a loss.
I have heard some great downbowers and I want to emulate their sound.
I would have been more insistent that it is the "best" approach, but I have seen people that CAN PLAY who don't use this approach (mostly, Dan).
I guess the mechanics of playing should be aimed at getting "the sound". One serves the other - so, the mechanics of playing is a means to an end which is 'getting the sound' -
and this is an argument for any of the approaches mentioned above.
Somehow, I still feel that the downbowing approach is "the way". This is what I am giving myself to and I am beginning to see some pleasant results.

I am surprised to hear that Celtic fiddlers use downbowing. Is this true? always- across the board or sometimes; by a few? Hmmm.

Ron

---

We see things from a very similar perspective- I could have written this myself.

Aside from Dan, Steve on this list (not active lately) isn't a downbower, and I would be very surprised if the fiddler for the Freighthoppers is- in any case his bowing is VERY hard for me to read, and that usually seems to mean he's a "whatever" bower or an upbower.

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

StrawTurkey - Posted - 01/13/2009:  06:13:53

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tunetaster
Somehow, I still feel that the downbowing approach is "the way".

---

Yes. It's easy to get that impression if you read much around here for long.

Will you be a "downbow on the 1" downbower, or a "downbow on the accent" downbower? There are two kinds.

oldtimer - Posted - 01/13/2009:  09:10:07

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

[quote]Originally posted by Tunetaster

If I haven't weighed in on this yet - how could that be possible given the amount of air time this subject has gotten recently - I am pursuing the downbowing approach.

fiddlepogo wrote:
....Aside from Dan, Steve on this list (not active lately) isn't a downbower, and I would be very surprised if the fiddler for the Freighthoppers is- in any case his bowing is VERY hard for me to read, and that usually seems to mean he's a "whatever" bower or an upbower.

---

David Bass of the Freight Hoppers actually is a downbower. Last year, about this time, he tried to teach me some of his bowing, but it was so unnatural for me that I gave up on it. Betse Ellis video-taped David teaching me this, but I haven't seen the tape.

Tunetaster wrote:
"If I haven't weighed in on this yet - how could that be possible given the amount of air time this subject has gotten recently - I am pursuing the downbowing approach."

The amount of air that a topic gets on this forum has nothing to do with either the validity or the prevalence of a technique in OT fiddling.

Most OT fiddlers base their bowing on saw strokes or Nashville Shuffle or a combination of the two. In certain southern areas, there are some downbowers.

90% of the "air time" about downbowing comes from one man, "Fiddlepogo". Michael is a fine person and a fine fiddler who is a bit obsessive about this topic

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey




"Time passes unhindered"

---

Edited by - oldtimer on 01/13/2009 14:21:35

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/13/2009:  10:56:49

---

Ummmm...my name is Michael,
and I am a longpostaholic!

I'm surprised about the Freight Hoppers fiddler.
But maybe not. I've noticed that I can easily pick out shuffles I use myself,
but that it's really hard
to "read" a bowing correctly if you don't use it yourself-
and the Freight Hopper's fiddler isn't using the same bowing licks I am,
downbowing or otherwise.

I wish there were 3 or 4 other downbowers here to answer questions about it.
But frankly the response I get probably scares others away.
I have to contend with 5 or 6 convinced ANTI-downbowers undercutting everything I say. Or just being silly, as some were earlier in this thread.
Mike Fontenot seems to have gone away.
Maybe I should too. I'm tired.

Hey- I know-
what I should do is when someone asks a downbowing question,
I'll just have them e-mail me so all the anti-downbowers won't get in a huff about it.

BTW- if those 90% that Nashville Shuffle and Sawstroke start on a downstroke
and end on an upstroke, they are downbow fiddlers according to Brad Leftwich's definition.

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

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Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/13/2009 22:45:34

oldtimer - Posted - 01/13/2009:  14:35:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Ummmm...my name isn't Chuck- it's Michael.

I'm surprised about the Freight Hoppers fiddler.
But maybe not. I've noticed that I can easily pick out shuffles I use myself,
but that it's really hard
to "read" a bowing correctly if you don't use it yourself-
and the Freight Hopper's fiddler isn't using the same bowing licks I am,
downbowing or otherwise.
....
BTW- if those 90% that Nashville Shuffle and Sawstroke start on a downstroke
and end on an upstroke, they are downbow fiddlers according to Brad Leftwich's

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OOps...I am so sorry, Michael. That's twice I have called you Chuck. It is senility on my part...not any resemblance.

Yes, the saw-stroke/ nashville shufflers may be downbow. I have never really understood all that bow terminology. David Bass plays a sort of Tommy Jarrell downbow and he calls it downbowing.

Again, my apologies. I'm at a point where I forget my best friends' names. I'm not
kidding.

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey



"Time passes unhindered"

janepaints - Posted - 01/13/2009:  15:58:42

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David Bass! The closest I've ever been to a 'groupie' was for the Freighthoppers. I saw them every chance I could, own their Rounder recordings plus tapes I made (really good sounding tapes) from at least three shows. They truly were a magical-serendipitous combination of talents (as is the Version #2--or is it #3?...or #4? which can currently be seen via Youtube etc.).

They made the 'Live At Bearsville Barn' video. Wherein each F-Hopper talks at length about how they approach their respective instruments. Great clear camera work. I own a copy and watch it often. It's still available. It's both a 'Hoppers concert and an instructional tape. I give it ten thumbs up. Check it out!

So, anyway, I've seen David Bass fiddle a HEAP, both live and on the video.

From what I've seen, David is heavy on the downbow. (I say this with a proviso--a lot of what he does is WAY beyond my ability to understand or comprehend. Gotta see it to believe it. The torrents of sound he produces often don't seem to match up with the visible evidence.

Maybe he made one of them 'meet a stranger at the crossroads at midnight' deals. :)

Sure--he's a master fiddler who employs a wide range of bow techniques, but he's surely among Gravity's Most Frequent Customers. PULL them notes outta the box.

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Edited by - janepaints on 01/13/2009 16:01:22