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martynspeck - Posted - 11/20/2012: 07:45:03
Are Salt Creek and Salt River the same tune or related tunes? Of course I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are 6 different tunes by each name and some of Salt Creek are related to some of Salt River and vici versi.
Peghead - Posted - 11/20/2012: 08:05:06
Texas tunes perhaps?
DougD - Posted - 11/20/2012: 08:12:30
Some interesting history here: ibiblio.org/fiddlers/SALLY_SALV.htm
Originally from West Virginia I think, since the earliest recording was by Clark Kessinger, and Bill Monroe apparently learned it from Don Stover, who was also from West Virginia.
Sam Shazaam - Posted - 11/20/2012: 08:12:54
I find Fiddlers Companion to be a good source for information like this. A check at Fiddlers Companion shows them to be the same tune. As with just about any tune there are numerous versions.
ibiblio.org/fiddlers/SALLY_SALV.htm
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/20/2012: 09:16:37
I've wondered th same thing. Maybe depends on the amount of snow/rain the mountains have been getting.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/20/2012: 11:31:29
I've always thought of them as variant titles of the same tune.
tonyelder - Posted - 11/20/2012: 12:40:33
The Salt Creek I am familiar with (common as a fiddle tune/instrumental in Bluegrass) is nothing like the Salt River that I hear by Bruce Molsky (Lost Boy). They are 2 different tunes.
That's not to say there aren't any variations of Salt River by others that might sound closer to the Salt Creek I know, but these 2 are not the same.
RobBob - Posted - 11/20/2012: 12:48:21
When Bill Monroe was recording an album, he already had Big Sand River on the tune list and they changed Salt River to Salt Creek so there would be only one river tune on the record, or so the legend goes.
Bruce Molsky's version of any tune will be very different than a standard bluegrass version. Just stylistic differences.
Edited by - RobBob on 11/20/2012 12:54:27
tonyelder - Posted - 11/20/2012: 12:54:59
If you listen to #347 (under A Modal AEAE):
slippery-hill.com/M-K/
Norman Edmonds version sounds very close to the version of Salt River played by Bruce and not the bluegrass version of Salt Creek.
Yeap, you're right to point down a little further. I've seen and heard 543 & 544 too. Just saying... there are (these are) 2 different tunes. Or - those 2 tunes (regardless of names) do not sound the same to me.
Edited by - tonyelder on 11/20/2012 13:02:54
fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/20/2012: 14:12:12
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
The Salt Creek I am familiar with (common as a fiddle tune/instrumental in Bluegrass) is nothing like the Salt River that I hear by Bruce Molsky (Lost Boy). They are 2 different tunes.
That's not to say there aren't any variations of Salt River by others that might sound closer to the Salt Creek I know, but these 2 are not the same.
I played intensely in the early 70's, then got out of touch with other OT fiddlers, eventually trading off a fiddle, and not getting another for 15 years. Then in 2005, I almost simultaneously started playing again AND using the 'net to see what was going on in the OT fiddling scene. I admit I still tend to see some things from the point of view of the early 1970s, and my tune list reflects it too! It's been kind of a "Rip Van Winkle" effect to see the contrasts.
Some of the tunes that were common among OT players in the 1970s have gotten neglected, and Bluegrass musicians have adopted them. One of the reasons for this is that scads of field recordings have been released or somehow made available in the ensuing decades. Lots of relatively obscure tunes- and some have the same titles as more common tunes. And maybe because of that it seems like Old Time fiddlers, at least of the revival breed are definitely into these more recently propagated tunes. Even though it's "traditional", Old Time music has it's trends, fashions, and fads! Anyway, not surprisingly, some of these tunes have the same names as some of the old chestnuts, but have nothing else in common with them.
As you look through the Fiddler's Companion, there are an AWFUL lot of multiple entries for the same title, but which are different tunes-
Cotton Eyed Joe [1] blah, blah, blah...
Cotton Eyed Joe [2] blah, blah, blah... etc.
So it doesn't surprise me to find out that there is another "Salt River"!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 11/20/2012 14:16:55
fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/20/2012: 14:18:26
quote:
Originally posted by Peghead
Texas tunes perhaps?
The Fiddler's Companion link Doug gave does show a Texas tune with the Salt River title.
wooliver - Posted - 11/20/2012: 14:25:06
Mostly hear it called Salt Creek, but have heard it called Salt River, same melody by my ear.
But Salty River Reel or Salt River Reel ain't the same.
Edited by - wooliver on 11/20/2012 14:26:02
fiddlebob - Posted - 11/21/2012: 07:21:34
I hate to disagree with Gary Lee Moore, one of the greatest fiddlers of out time, but going by the sheet music in my fiddle books, they are quite different tunes. However, different tunes have different names in different parts of the country, and I see that as our point of difference.
fiddlebob
NCarolinaFiddler - Posted - 11/21/2012: 07:55:58
I think they're completely different tunes because I was thinking the same thing for quite awhile.
tonyelder - Posted - 11/21/2012: 08:35:21
I have a great deal of respect for Mr Moore. So, I went back and listened closer.
After considering how it could be possible to hear them as the same tune, I discovered that if you reverse the order of playing the A part and B part of either tune - they come a lot closer to sounding sounding the same. I still hear different melodies, but I concede the possibility that they're variations of the same tune when played that way - more than I first thought. At least it's easier for me to accept that folks do hear it that way.
I'm sure they are all relieved. 
I've had the same kind of discussions over other tunes.
Edited by - tonyelder on 11/21/2012 08:43:02
oldtimestrings - Posted - 11/21/2012: 08:38:09
There were at least two different old-time tunes called Salt River. This is not unusual with OT repertory. Consider ow many completely different tunes exist under the name Lost Indian, for instance.
One of the OT Salt River tunes became known in the bluegrass world as Salt Creek, after Bill Monroe recorded it under that title. See RobBob's post above.
wooliver - Posted - 11/21/2012: 09:21:00
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
I have a great deal of respect for Mr Moore. So, I went back and listened closer.
After considering how it could be possible to hear them as the same tune, I discovered that if you reverse the order of playing the A part and B part of either tune - they come a lot closer to sounding sounding the same. I still hear different melodies, but I concede the possibility that they're variations of the same tune when played that way - more than I first thought. At least it's easier for me to accept that folks do hear it that way.
I'm sure they are all relieved.
I've had the same kind of discussions over other tunes.
That is an interesting consideration. Some folk even consider the same melody in a different key, a completely different tune. So it would stand to reason if a tune's A & B parts are rearranged it would be considered a different tune by some.
As there are usually so many variations of tunes, I personally do not consider either one of these, and i've been roasted for it. But they ain't roastin veal here.
Gary Lee Moore - Posted - 11/21/2012: 13:23:46
They have been the same for all my 55 years of playing the fiddle. Many different interpretations of melodies exist. As well they should, they are the personal "dialects" from the natural change that occurs over time between the interaction of one's mind and innovation through hundreds of renditions passed on.
Reversing parts means nothing as far as the skeleton of the melody exists fairly consistent.
For me, that is the interesting and beautiful part of the entire fiddle playing culture. As one progresses and interacts with other regional styles and rythmn players the tune has to change to some degree. And those who aren't as proficient a player will modify passages that are more comfortable to their abilities. When another player likes that modification, they tend to adopt it into their version of the melody.
I like that so long as the skeleton remain recognizable.
I play many variations on Salt River, I play three completely different chord structures for the B part. All learned from great players. Many of the notes I chose, and all my dynamics within the tune, are totally mine though.
Addie - Posted - 11/21/2012: 15:20:26
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
I've wondered th same thing. Maybe depends on the amount of snow/rain the mountains have been getting.
No, an order of magnitude difference: creek vs river. 
Catchment basin size, general climate, slope, aspect, sediment load, bed roughness... all the way up to naming conventions and the USGS. Ne'er so simple as "maybe depends... " 
Shawn Craver - Posted - 11/22/2012: 05:52:59
Salt Creek came from Salt River... Monroe bluegrassed it up and its been bluegrassed to near death since then. There are lots of "old-time" variants. I'd call it the Salt River "family" of tunes. Another example from the "old-time" tradition is the Hammon's Muddy Roads.
As for them being two separate tunes... I think bluegrass makes separate tunes out of good and decent tunes quite regularly. As does the "neo-oldtime" movement... to be fair.
NCarolinaFiddler - Posted - 12/02/2012: 15:49:07
How about Salty River Reel? Is this related to Salt River? Doesn't really sound alike just wondering.
