Tennessee Tom - Posted - 07/08/2012:  07:09:20

Here's my own thoughts on Just Intonation (JI) vs Equal Temperament (ET) tuning approach:



OT Fiddler:

This style would demand JI tuning. No doubt the King of Strings should ring true with itself for all the open-string chords in 1st pos. This trumps any minor inconsistencies with other instruments.



Classical Violinist:

AFAIK, this style should warrant ET tuning. Notwithstanding the virtuoso, most (if not all) notes are single and must be in tune with the rest of the orchestra. They are likely to be tuned ET.



Bluegrass Fiddler:

Here's where it gets gray. Playing "easy BG" (i.e., in G and A chords) would probably work best with JI. That's because there are still many open strings being played on fiddle. But what about when you're playing BG in the B keys? There, most of the chords are double-stops in upper positions, so maybe the JI tuning is not best any more? That's where I'm stumped.



Seems that most of you who perform to audiences in clubs, etc prefer to use electronic tuners. Reasons for this are not hard to understand, but you would end up with ET. So what did the early BG fiddlers do before there were electronic tuners? Since they were all string, it must have been JI (i.e., no piano to tune against).

coelhoe - Posted - 07/08/2012:  07:21:00

I think it is pretty hard to generalize about the early "bluegrass" fiddlers, who came from a variety of musical backgrounds and different degrees of musical sophistication.  Pianos were common middle class household items, and piano tuners had life-time professions.  I have met many old-time dance fiddlers who were piano tuners as a career, and no doubt conversant with tuning / tempering issues.

Sue B. - Posted - 07/08/2012:  11:40:52

It really isn't a cut-and-dried choice. I use just intonation almost all the time, including in my string quartet. Sounds better to me. In quartet, we listen and tune the chords carefully. The considerations are very like someone playing along and adjusting fingers to play doublestops in tune. In an orchestra, there is a tendency to play the 7th step an eensy high to support the key. Except for very sustained chords, etc., where the violinist would compromise, the violinist can be using just-intonation and a piano accompanist be (be default) in equal-temperament, and it sounds fine.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/08/2012:  12:31:48

I have a 440 tuning fork...what do you tune to in just intonation? I figured you just made the fifths sound good together instead of crappy??? I mean, is there a special way to tune?

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/08/2012 12:32:49

Peghead - Posted - 07/08/2012:  12:57:46

I learned a lot from this generous web sit site. Look in the master class - intonation systems. I'm still learning to hear and understand it fully but it explains a lot of things. In summary, the notes (intervals actually)  that sound best for single line passages (Pythagorean intonation) like a straight fiddle tune do not all blend well into good sounding double stops. For chords, you must change intonation system, (Just intonation) and tweek certain intervals. If a tune has both linear passages and double stops, like a bluegrass tune for instance, you need to know what's going on, and how to use the system that will sound best in that instance. http://violinmasterclass.com/  When playing with tempered instruments, other interval adjustments are called for.  It comes down to awareness first and careful listening.  

Edited by - Peghead on 07/08/2012 13:00:55

Tennessee Tom - Posted - 07/08/2012:  13:33:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



1) I have a 440 tuning fork...what do you tune to in just intonation?

2) I figured you just made the fifths sound good together instead of crappy???

3) I mean, is there a special way to tune?

---

1) For JI, I tune to an A-440 fork. It is my absolute reference standard.

2) Yes, then the fifths sound good, but my ears tell me there is more to it than "just" that.

3) ... no "special" tuning will fix it all. That's why I ask my friends at FHO, then I make my own decisions. 

martynspeck - Posted - 07/08/2012:  13:54:35

As I understand it, in just temperament, a note is at a different frequency depending on which note is the root of the scale.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/08/2012:  16:05:27

Well I've always just thought of equal temperament as the necessary evil in tuning everything a little off from the true Pythagorean, where the strings would divide themselves into absolute intervals that would be true, yet sound off when used with chord progressions and key signatures like we have today, rather than sticking to modes. To me, equal temperament is why my guitar never really sounds in tune to me, but the way I ave to have it to play chord-based music. Fiddle, being unfretted, nnot fixed, can handle modes with true Pythagorean intervals or go into equal temperament, because the player's ear will cause subconscious adjustments in the tones as s/he plays...true for any such instrument that isn't fixed in its tuning. So, this is what I think of...why I love modal music (Dorian is the coolest...bt add a guitar and it's messed up), yet I'm torn in also loving music based on our twelve tone keys and scales, their chords and progressions...and putting up with equal temperament, realizing it's just the only way that stuff is possible. I never thought about t, but I just always assumed tuning my A to 440 with the fork and then doing the fifths according to my ear would give me freedom of choice on the fiddle,,.but now wondering if 440 itself is wrong for Pythagorean...in other words, are the fifths just realtive or is 440 a physical violation of true tones...maybe out of tune in and of itself??? Ugh...this stuff'll really drive you outta your mind...but you'll have a good time along the way!!!

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 07/08/2012 16:06:50

OTJunky - Posted - 07/08/2012:  16:16:20

An A tuned 440 does not create"a physical violation of true tones...maybe out of tune in and of itself"

All that matters are the relative pitches.

You can cross-tune to AEAE, GDGD or FCFC and still get the full sound of a cross-tuned fiddle that's tuned to just temperament - EXCEPT that some fiddles like to vibrate at some frequencies better than others. So, any given fiddle, might actually sound better in one or the other of AEAE, GDGD or FCFC. But that's not something Pythagoras can be blamed for. Instead, the fault lies with the maker of that particular fiddle and/or the luthier who did it's most recent setup.

--OTJ

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/08/2012:  16:19:44

Ok thanks for that answer...not that i was thinking about puttin the blame on poor ol Pythagoras...he did real good...it's the rest of us that are confused...but that does answer my convoluted question ( I'm impressed you even FOUND my question in all that confusion) about whether it's ... Well let me just keep this one short and say thanks for the concise answer! I'll hang onto my trusty 440 tuning fork!!!

tarheel - Posted - 07/08/2012:  20:22:34

Oh Sweet Jesus just tune to the A note and then to the D At a jam everybody is going to be out of tune, when you are recordind maybe you can be a little more particular

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/09/2012:  00:26:13

The most significant differences in tuning systems is not in the fifths, as they are only 2 cents different; and most folks don't notice. Even pro piano tuners rarely achieve that, and a perfectly ET tuned piano would be a rare thing (esp. a week, month later). The violin/fiddle is generally tuned in fifths (or with inverted fifths in most cross tuned). Using an electronic tuner does not significantly change anything. Whether it's A440 or not (A432, A448) is not relevant to the temperament.

The other notes and intervals are all fingered, and non fixed position, essentially the player is free to use JI, ET, Pythagorean (which BTW is neither just nor equal, a separate entity) or other possibilities. The temperament doesn't have to change as it goes up to higher positions.

The only times I think about tuning the fiddle for not using near perfect fifths is obviously in something like AEAC#, to which I almost always tune the C# to be just intonation; and sometimes if playing a bunch of G tunes in GDAE I will tune the E string as a just intoned major sixth (an ET sixth is 16 cents sharp, Pythagorean 22 cents sharp). On some very rare occasions will tune the standard open strings specifically for C major, F Major E Dorian; but usually I don't bother that amount of fine tuning those in a jam; some as tarheel mentioned, but also the nature of the music involved.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peghead

In summary, the notes (intervals actually)  that sound best for single line passages (Pythagorean intonation) like a straight fiddle tune do not all blend well into good sounding double stops. For chords, you must change intonation system, (Just intonation) and tweek certain intervals. If a tune has both linear passages and double stops, like a bluegrass tune for instance, you need to know what's going on, and how to use the system that will sound best in that instance.  

---

 I don't know many folks who actually use Pythagorean intonation (it is not the same as Equal Temperament); but there is something to the difference between temperament based on perceptual linear steps and ones based on perceptual intervals. However, Pythagorean does not empirically sound best for melody; just intonation works quite well for single line melody, as it keeps all the notes strongly related to and defining the harmonic space. (perhaps more important as a single line melody). In other words, it's not just for doublestops/chords; and there is no need to change back and forth. If you were using equal temperament for linear melody line, I would think you would go a head and use ET doublestops/chords as well.

I do think folks miss the point of Equal Temperament; it is all about making harmonic relationships and chords - on fixed pitched instruments (like piano) so you can modulate or play in any key. It gained being able to expand out, but had to compromise, sacrifice some harmonic strength, depth to achieve this; and that (theoretically) no intervals/chords sound so bad as to be perceived as bad, and most folks would not notice or view it as important compared to the gain. It is possible to keep the strength and depth of just intonation with the complex chords, and modulations - but only with non-hard-fixed pitch instruments like the fiddle, or voices.

transplant - Posted - 07/09/2012:  06:11:49

Yes, ET is about keyboard players being able to modulate freely among the keys without any of them sounding too awful. That said, all the experts worth paying attention to agree that sixth-comma extended meantone temperament is the way to go.

Seriously, taking plenty of time in rehearsal to tune every note in every chord (a cappella) made for the best group music I have ever had the delight of making.

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/09/2012:  07:28:15

It's good to be aware of different temperament schemes, mainly so you'll know why thirds and sixths (and sevenths) sound so awful on pianos and guitars, but they were developed for fixed pitch instruments like keyboards, fretted, and wind instruments. They have VERY little to do with fretless instruments for a couple of reasons:

First, I've never heard a good violinist who plays "in tune" by the numbers. A couple of years ago, I used Intonia to analyze quite a few performances.  Heifetz played the closest to "in tune" of anyone I analyzed, but he still varied quite a bit. Many other soloists played consistently sharp in relation to the orchestra, and others just varied quite a bit. Fiddlers who have been analyzed by musicologists have their own idea of temperament, differing from one area to another. It's also the custom in classical music to vary pitch for "expressive" intonation, for example playing some leading tones sharp.

Second, a fiddle or violin has its own unique intonation scheme.  You generally tune in open fifths, which nullifies the possibility of having the open strings in "just" tune in many keys.  I had a long conversation about this with a working jazz violinist who was into music theory.  The only conclusion we could reach was that good intonation was whatever sounded good, and the instrument itself will absolutely tell you when you are in tune. It's a matter of timbre or tone, rather than pitch discrimination. Playing slow scales will make this clear; the fiddle just "sounds right" when you are playing in tune, and sounds "wrong" when you are out of tune. Not by pitch (nobody's pitch discrimination is that good), but just by how the instrument sounds, providing it's tuned well to begin with.

That's the greatest thing about non-fretted instruments, and why, in the hands of an excellent player, they can sound more beautiful and expressive than any others, IMHO.

mad baloney - Posted - 07/09/2012:  08:43:07

When I'm playing with ET'd instruments like fretted instruments, keyboards or fixed reeds I use ET. When playing with JT instruments like uilliean or highland bagpipes or flutes I generally try my best to match their instrument - it's usually a bit of a flat 3rd and 7th an a bit of a sharp 5th.

Overall, it's not very important, it's only a hair of a difference and you could only pick up on it on a studio recording or the like.

I like the old fiddlers who used their own intonations, big in Co Clare and also quite a few OT fiddlers I've heard. One guy described it as, "weird, he's consistantly out of tune." but it's got it's own thing which brings a ton of character to the music.

Peghead - Posted - 07/09/2012:  09:26:12

Differences in the 5ths are not noticable in the different systems. Problems with chords arise with the 3rds and 6ths where there is a audible spread between ET and Just. It kind of explains why the key of C can be difficult intonation wise. When an open string is the 3rd (E string in the key of C)  it is fixed and cannot be adjusted for a just double stop. The same is true for the open A string in the key of F. The only way to get  just harmony is to adjust the other note and that creates the funk.  I think some classical players advocate avoiding the chords with an open 3rd.  For fiddlers it's part of the C sound. 

FiddleJammer - Posted - 07/09/2012:  11:14:47

We worship our cheap little electronic tunes, don't we? And, I think they have revolutionized participatory music. We can tune 'close enough' and get on with learning our instruments.

But, really, look at the tuners. How close do they split the tones? You can be in tune according to your tuner, when in fact you might be quite a few hairs off. So, use the tuners to get into the ballpark, but use your ears to get your particular fiddle in your particular tuning better than that cheap little gadget would have you believe.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/09/2012:  14:14:37

Can anybody talk about the Second Interval?  I swear, it gives me more fits than any of the others.  Whenever I match my second to an electronic tuner it always sounds flat to me.

mad baloney - Posted - 07/09/2012:  14:36:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by FiddleJammer

We worship our cheap little electronic tunes, don't we? And, I think they have revolutionized participatory music. We can tune 'close enough' and get on with learning our instruments.

But, really, look at the tuners. How close do they split the tones? You can be in tune according to your tuner, when in fact you might be quite a few hairs off. So, use the tuners to get into the ballpark, but use your ears to get your particular fiddle in your particular tuning better than that cheap little gadget would have you believe.

---

I almost got my head ripped off for pointing that out once, but it's the truth. Always double-check w/ you ear

Tennessee Tom - Posted - 07/09/2012:  15:40:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by woodwiz

The only conclusion we could reach was that good intonation was whatever sounded good, and the instrument itself will absolutely tell you when you are in tune. It's a matter of timbre or tone, rather than pitch discrimination. Playing slow scales will make this clear; the fiddle just "sounds right" when you are playing in tune, and sounds "wrong" when you are out of tune. Not by pitch (nobody's pitch discrimination is that good), but just by how the instrument sounds, providing it's tuned well to begin with.

---

YES!

When I was still with my 1st teacher, I used my electronic tuner exclusively. But I noticed every time I handed him my fiddle for whatever reason, he would usually tweak on the fine-tuners. I eventually got curioius and asked him to explain what he was doing. His answers led to my request that we spend the next couple of lessons on learnin' me how to tune 100% by ear.

Once I got fairly good at tuning by ear, I noticed that tuning by the electronic tuner never sounded quite right. As mentioned in a cpl posts here, I couldn't tell the "few cents difference" just by the one open string alone. It was by the chords that I knew something was wrong. One could probably search FHO and find some of my old posts to this effect.

This lasted for a while, and then I found out about JI and ET. I never knew about that particular concept till it showed up in some other thread here. That cleared up a lot for me, but also adds the perpetual diemma on which way is right. At this point, I don't think I could go with ET. Gotta stick with JI because it sounds better.

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/09/2012:  17:48:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

Can anybody talk about the Second Interval?  I swear, it gives me more fits than any of the others.  Whenever I match my second to an electronic tuner it always sounds flat to me.

---

Could this be why?  That's Hertz, not Cents.

Note     

          Just Scale     Equal

                       Temperament   Difference

C4         261.63       261.63     0

C4#       272.54       277.18     +4.64

D4         294.33       293.66     -0.67

E4b       313.96       311.13     -2.84

E4        327.03        329.63     +2.60

F4         348.83       349.23     +0.40

F4#       367.92       369.99     +2.07

G4        392.44       392.00     -0.44

A4b       418.60       415.30     -3.30

A4        436.05        440.00     +3.94

B4b      470.93        466.16     -4.77

B4        490.55        493.88     +3.33

C5         523.25       523.25     0

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/09/2012:  19:13:19

I can't stand electronic tuners. If I tune my fiddle...it's strings sounding pleasing along the 440 A. If I yune the guitar, I get the A and then tune the chords I'll be playing so that it doesn't sound too outta tune...for instance, if I'll be playing in C I makes those chords soud good, in E, make those sound good...but guitar always sounds a little off no matter what!

Minim Miser - Posted - 07/10/2012:  07:13:19

Tricky one. When playing a fingered note, you could try and play in-tune with whatever tuning system you choose, or in-tune with an open string (you have a choice there, maybe one you played recently would be good), or in-tune with the guy next to you, or with the loudest instrument, or the soloist, or whatever. Chances are, they're all a bit different unless someone is being really strict about tuning.

In Simon Fischer's Basics, he seems to say that the simple intervals should be exact (I think that's JI), but the other notes you can play as sharp or flat as you like (and can get away with). Isn't it all part of the expressive nature of the instrument? I know in Scottish fiddling (and quite possibly Irish, although I'm no expert) notes are played out of tune to add a certain wildness to the music. I think it's common in some singing styles too.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/10/2012:  19:34:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

Can anybody talk about the Second Interval?  I swear, it gives me more fits than any of the others.  Whenever I match my second to an electronic tuner it always sounds flat to me.

---

I find discussing and thinking in cents a little easier, as the relationships stay the same no matter what the initial starting frequnecy. In cents it is the difference between Just intonation of 204 cents and Equal temperament of 200 cents; so the tuner's (ET) is 4 cents flat to what you might be wanting to hear.

By itself, it is a difficult interval to hear the intonation linearly; as well as simultaneously to the root (a bit dissonant). But not impossible to hear that 204 cent is a low ratio of 9/8; for every 8 vibrations of one note the other is is vibrating 9, so they do somewhat connect. However, it is easier to notice in context, or anchored off another interval. As a fifth of the fifth (V chord), and as 702 cent perfect fifths would lead you to wanting to hear a 204 cent second. As low ratios, the perceptual 3/2 relationship is really easy to hear; 3/2 times 3/2 creates that 9/8 relationship.

While I find these conversations interesting,  I often think  - it's easy to get a little too worked up, on intonation. For many, many reasons. Causing way more confusion, struggle and stress than needed for students. If you just go by defining good intonation from the listener's point of view; they didn't have to work and  "learn" some abstract quantitatve definition; and don't sit in the audience measuring with a tuner; they just use the normal human ears and brain's natural ability, measured in a perceptual qualitative way. Context plays a big role in that.

If you were to play a series of notes that just by listening seemed to feel right, achieve the quality you are after; and other listeners, listening in the normal way, don't notice anything about it seeming off, and also just hear the overal perceptual quality and enjoy the music; and nobody has a measuring device; is it out of tune?

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/10/2012:  22:48:54

Alaska  and Woodwiz.  Thanks for the info and explanations.  Alaska -- yeah a fiddler can really go 'round the bend when it comes to intonation.  But you got to understand that I've seen the Berlin Philharmonic a few times and I listen to a lot of recordings that feature the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields. When things are in tune, life is bliss.

Penel - Posted - 07/11/2012:  09:21:48

I've got a personal theory that violinists use lots and lots of vibrato because on some level they know ET sounds wrong

and the vibrato is their way of giving some airtime to the JT note. 

Play a tune at Just Tuning and all that vibrato isn't necessary except for occasional amusement, eh?

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2012:  15:49:25

My take on "just intonation"...

I just intonate it anywhichway it sounds good to me at the time- and in the context of who I'm playing it with.



I think y'all are overanalyzing this....

What's more, I never heard Earl Collins, Mel Durham, Tommy Jarrell, or Fred Cockerham talk like this-

why, such talk isn't even OLD TIME!!!

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 07/11/2012 15:55:34

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/11/2012:  17:33:46

Uh-oh...is the conversation straying into New Time territory???

1fiddlediddler - Posted - 07/11/2012:  17:37:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by tarheel

Oh Sweet Jesus just tune to the A note and then to the D At a jam everybody is going to be out of tune, when you are recordind maybe you can be a little more particular

---

 I am new to fiddle, but this makes sense to me......

Tennessee Tom - Posted - 07/11/2012:  18:01:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

What's more, I never heard Earl Collins, Mel Durham, Tommy Jarrell, or Fred Cockerham talk like this-

 

---

Maybe they were trying to keep it a secret?

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2012:  18:10:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tennessee Tom

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

What's more, I never heard Earl Collins, Mel Durham, Tommy Jarrell, or Fred Cockerham talk like this-

 

---

 

Maybe they were trying to keep it a secret?

 

---

LOL!  Seriously, I doubt they even knew what temperament was, except if you asked Tommy Jarrell about temperament, he might have said that his was "feisty".... or maybe "onnery".  One thing about it, with tuning there ARE no visual clues, like there are for, ah.... CERTAIN OTHER THINGS HAVING TO DO WITH FIDDLING!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/11/2012:  19:19:05

It's so darn crappy we got so doggone edumacated...ruins all the fun!

DeamhanFola - Posted - 07/13/2012:  09:01:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by mad baloney

I like the old fiddlers who used their own intonations, big in Co Clare and also quite a few OT fiddlers I've heard. One guy described it as, "weird, he's consistantly out of tune." but it's got it's own thing which brings a ton of character to the music.

---

Mad Baloney has definitely hit on something here that is worth remembering. Here's a couple quotes that sprang to mind:

'Whether or no a particular interval is appropriate to the musical context only the ear of the musician can decide.' Ll. S. Lloyd, The Musical Ear

'...dissonance and consonance are attributes of human hearing, not qualities inherent in sound waves in the air.'  K. van Barthold, forward to Intervals, Scales, and Temperaments

'There is no absolute "being in tune". It is a matter of the ear, of opinion, of musical and social agreement. Different cultures evolve different musical structures.' Ciarán Carson, Irish Traditional Music

As pointed out, old-school Irish trad fiddlers (especially the actually elderly) often might seem to the classical ear to be out of tune, have dodgy intonation, etc. However, that traditional player will be perfectly in tune according to his/her own system as developed over the decades and centuries. Carson shares the experience related by Mad Baloney  of people hearing Donegal fiddlers as sounding sharp, but in Carson's words 'the system is consistent and it works...people who complain that traditional music is out of tune usually turn out to be brainwashed by conventional music education.'

What sounds 'right' is culturally determined by our own experiences, education, expectations, etc, not by the immutable universal laws of some musical deity.

Edited by - DeamhanFola on 07/13/2012 09:03:16

Peghead - Posted - 07/13/2012:  09:55:31

I agree, what we think of as "sounding good" or in tune, is very much a cultural construct. Not that long ago, maybe a generation and a half, before we were so over stimulated and bombarded with music and media in every niche of our of daily lives, there was more latitude and acceptance of individualized pitch systems and the deviations that developed in isolation. You can even hear it in the professional recordings of the day. Now, the western scale has become so ingrained in all of us, it has become a part of our internal dialogue to the point where even non-musicans can point out when it strays, and pitch correction is so widely used in pop music. I don't think there's an honest way to go back unless you are a musicologist doing a recreation. I could never play out of tune on purpose, I already do enough of it when I'm  trying not to.

Edited by - Peghead on 07/13/2012 10:01:26

Tennessee Tom - Posted - 07/14/2012:  09:56:28

Some great replies in this thread. I was a little nervous about my OP, since I might have made a mistake in terminology. Seems like many folks say "just temperament," which apparently means the same thing as "just intonation." Also, I'm not so certain that tuning with an electronic tuner is the best reference-standard for ET.

I've not done a huge amount of public performing, but I have done some. Of those times where I have performed to an audience, these subtle tuning issues have been the least of my problems. That's especially true for playing outside, in an uncontrolled environment. But that being said, I still think it's worth the while to pay attention to stuff like this.

I had one teacher who started trying to get me to tune to his electric piano. I went along with it for a while, but eventually resisted. I said to him, "What am I gonna do when I'm out in the woods, and your electric piano ain't there?" That relationship didn't last much longer.

transplant - Posted - 07/14/2012:  11:53:29

Up to now I've been keeping quiet about it, but saying "just temperament" is an error. A temperament, and there are a few of them, comes from tempering a justly tuned scale, in other words adjusting it away from the natural purity of its intervals.

I don't know much about actual bluegrass, but doesn't it have a kinship with close harmony? Somehow I get this picture of vocalists putting their heads together right around a single microphone to get that high lonesome sound. Equal temperament doesn't happen naturally in a setting like that.