Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/27774
Learner - Posted - 04/27/2012: 13:00:46
Hello all:
I've been playing through a Heil pr35 dynamic mic, and I am now thinking about purchasing a condenser mic (non-electret type). I've been doing a lot of online research, reading as many reviews as I can, looking at frequency curves, output, etc.
Based on my investigations, I've narrowed it down to these three:
AKG C 1000 S: 
C 1000 S - AKG site link
C 1000 S - Musician's Friend site link
Audio-Technica ATM710: 
ATM710 - Audio-Technica site link
ATM710 - Musician's Friend site link
Blue enCORE 300: 
enCORE 300 - Blue Mic site link
enCORE 300 - Musician's Friend site link
Does anyone here have experience with any of these three? All very different mics for certain. All with very good reviews from both users and audio professionals. The Blue has by far the hottest output, and quite a different response curve, although users rate it highly for dynamic range, power, and a very open sound in a live application.
I play with our worship team at our church. Amplified guitars, keyboard, bass, drums. I'm also the chief sound tech, so I have a lot of control over all of the sound. Thankfully, our drums are a very good electronic set, so I don't have to deal with an acoustic drum set. And I run my fiddle through a small Allen & Heath ZED-10FX mixer, so I can do some EQ and gain adjustments right on stage, as well as adding some reverb as needed.
Thanks for any feedback you may have (no pun intended!). I think that a condenser would have some advantages versus the dynamic that I currently use.
Frank
Edited by - Learner on 04/27/2012 13:27:15
UsuallyPickin - Posted - 04/27/2012: 13:36:46
I have several AKG 1000 mics and have found them to be very serviceable. The on off switch is small enough that it dosn't get turned off accidently but is a little hard for my fat fingers to deal with. Carry extra 9v batteries. R/
Learner - Posted - 04/27/2012: 13:42:21
quote:
Originally posted by UsuallyPickin
I have several AKG 1000 mics and have found them to be very serviceable. The on off switch is small enough that it dosn't get turned off accidently but is a little hard for my fat fingers to deal with. Carry extra 9v batteries. R/
Thank you, Richard.
I like the battery option, although I'd probably just be using the phantom power.
What do you find is a usable working distance for the C 1000 S?
And how pronounced is the proximity effect? In other words, if you position the mic a couple of feet from the fiddle, do you get a good reproduction of the entire frequency range? Or do you have to get closer?
Thanks again.
Learner - Posted - 04/27/2012: 13:43:39
I'd also like to open up this thread to comments on any other favorite condenser mics that FHO members may have used at one time or another.
Also, ones that I should stay away from.
And lastly, if there are members that favor dynamics over condensers; and if so, why?
Edited by - Learner on 04/27/2012 13:57:44
MikeyBoy - Posted - 04/27/2012: 13:50:07
I have the AKG C1000s and have been very happy with it for use in live situations. Like any condenser mic, it can be prone to feedback (especially in a loud stage situation) but in general it performed very well for me and feedback was less of an issue compared to other condensers. It's been very durable, and it even survived a fire (the grill came off, it's covered in soot, but the electronics were all fine). It's a little "bright," but on stage that can be eq'd if you don't find it to your taste. I have recorded with it as well, but prefer other options for recording fiddle.
MikeyBoy - Posted - 04/27/2012: 13:57:36
quote:
Originally posted by Learner
quote:
Originally posted by UsuallyPickin
I have several AKG 1000 mics and have found them to be very serviceable. The on off switch is small enough that it dosn't get turned off accidently but is a little hard for my fat fingers to deal with. Carry extra 9v batteries. R/
Thank you, Richard.
I like the battery option, although I'd probably just be using the phantom power.
What do you find is a usable working distance for the C 1000 S?
And how pronounced is the proximity effect? In other words, if you position the mic a couple of feet from the fiddle, do you get a good reproduction of the entire frequency range? Or do you have to get closer?
Thanks again.
Re: the proximity effect - I found it best to stay a few feet away. Too close and the mic would accentuate a lot more of the undesirable scritches and scratches (but a better fiddle player than me might not have that as an issue).
It is nice to be able to use batteries if you don't have a phantom power source, but I would always seem to forget about turning it off, so they never lasted that long!
DougD - Posted - 04/27/2012: 14:13:18
I own two C1000s, from the days when they were still made in Austria (before Poland and then China, although that may make no difference). I've used them on fiddle with success, although I know some people really hate these mics. I've never thought to wonder if they are electrets or not - are you sure they're not?
I also own a couple AKG C535s, which I think are a better mic, if you have phantom power available. The price difference between these two has fluctuated somewhat - I'm not sure what it is now, since I'm not in the market. Its really meant as a stage vocal mic, but its good on a lot of instruments. There are some other AKG mics that might be good.
I have no experience with the other two you're considering. I have a few Audio Technica mics, but only large diaphragms ones, the 4033, and 3035. Good mics, but not really best for fiddle.
I think you're on the right track looking at small diaphragm condensers for your purpose - some others to consider might be the smaller Rode mics, which I've never used, or the A/T Pro 37, which is very good for the price (and very hot). I'd look for something with a flat frequency response, and especially not too big a peak in the 3-5KHz range. If you're not singing into it you don't need a built in windscreen (unless you're outdoors).
As far as favorites, of what I own my favorite would be the Neumann KM-84, which is a very good microphone with flat response, but no longer made and out of this price range. Some people don't even like condenser mics for fiddle - why do you feel the need to change from the Heil (another mic I've never seen)? I've also used ribbons and high end dynamics with success.That said, I usually try to use condenser mics for instruments, although I've certainly used SM57s too.
Edit: Just remember that a mic someone really likes for vocals may not be the best for fiddle, because of the almost inevitable presence peak in modern vocal mics. You might want to check out these: pelusomicrophonelab.com/ I don't own any, but his mics are popular around here.
Edited by - DougD on 04/27/2012 14:25:07
Learner - Posted - 04/27/2012: 16:32:14
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
I own two C1000s, from the days when they were still made in Austria (before Poland and then China, although that may make no difference). I've used them on fiddle with success, although I know some people really hate these mics. I've never thought to wonder if they are electrets or not - are you sure they're not?.............
Good question, Doug. I had to do some digging around on AKG's site. I finally found a service document that did indeed state that it was an electret. I suppose that I'm unnecessarily discriminating against them, versus an electrostatic condenser.
Frank
Learner - Posted - 04/27/2012: 16:54:55
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
...........................I also own a couple AKG C535s, which I think are a better mic, if you have phantom power available. The price difference between these two has fluctuated somewhat - I'm not sure what it is now, since I'm not in the market. Its really meant as a stage vocal mic, but its good on a lot of instruments. There are some other AKG mics that might be good.
Thanks for the suggestion on this one, Doug. I had not looked at it carefully previously. That is a very nicely flat response curve. How would you compare it to your Neumann?
The C 535 S is now called the C 535 EB. It's about $100 more than I want to spend. But I may have to consider it.
Edited by - Learner on 04/27/2012 16:56:21
DougD - Posted - 04/27/2012: 17:39:25
Sorry, Frank. I think its always been the 535EB - I meant the "s" as a plural. I'm just doing this off the top of my head though, so I might be a little off on some details. (as well as generally!)
Anyway, as you noticed the response on the C535 is quite flat. The peak that's there is above the "danger zone" for the fiddle, and I think is supposed to mimic the "airy" sound of the classic AKGs like the C12, which really is a superb microphone. Two other things that you seemed concerned with - Output level - I'm not quite sure how to interpret the specs, but I know from experience that the C535 is hotter than the C1000, although I don't think that's much of an issue unless you're distant micing a choir or something, which probably either of these could actually do, but would not be the best choice. Proximity effect - I believe that, given access, the best place to control this is at the mic. The C1000 has no provision for this, but you can certainly help it in the mixer. The 535 has a four position switch that's pretty well thought out - 1. Full output level, flat response; 2. Full output level, sharp rolloff at 100HZ (Useful for distant micing where there's AC or traffic noise); 3. Reduced ouput level, flat response (for use with systems that might not have variable input gain) 4. Reduced output level and gentle rolloff below 500Hz (to control proximity effect in close micing).
I sometimes use my two 535s and two C1000s more or less interchangeably in sound reinforcement, especially if I don't know how the stage might change, and they both sound quite good. I think the C1000 is a very good mic, and so do others - Of people I know Robin and Linda Williams carry a couple, and Rob Ickes of Blue Highway uses one on his Dobro.
In comparison, the Neumann KM84 has a flatter response, and I believe one of the smoothest cardiod patterns ever devised. It has no pad or rollof though, and can sound too "dull" or "boomy" on a close miced guitar, for example, which has to be dealt with in the board. I bought mine in 1980, and they are certainly the most accurate of my mics. I've used them on everything from choirs to classical vocal soloists, to many fiddlers - they're a really great mandolin mic (I think David Grisman likes them) and also for Dobro. Pretty much anything, if you know where to put it, and how to apply some EQ if needed. The current KM184 is brighter - I think Neumann responded to the desire for ever more present sound. Still a good mic I think, although I haven't used them.
Interestingly, I think the KM84 is an electret design, which has kind of an interesting history. In the days of tubes it was no problem to send a polarizing voltage to the capsule in a proprietary cable along with the voltages for the tube. I think the Neumann U87 and their KM series were the first transistorized mics, and phantom power was developed for them. I don't know, but I guess they used the electret because there was no more high voltage easily available. The usual knock on electrets is that they lose their polarizing charge, but as I said I've had the KM84's for over 30 years and AFAIK they're still going strong.
I sometimes used to discuss recording fiddles with Mike Seeger, who had been a studio recording engineer at one point, as well as a field recordist. He didn't like condenser mics for fiddles - he thought they had too much high end and were too brittle sounding (or scratchy maybe). He preferred ribbons, and I do own a couple, but I like condensers for live use, if the PA is good. They just sound more realistic to me.
Sorry for the ramble. Good luck with your choice. I wonder what other fiddlers in situations similar to yours prefer.
PS - The Audio Technica and Blue mics you listed are clearly designed as stage vocal mics, and the presence peak might not flatter a fiddle. The C1000 is more of a general purpose mic (although its quite good for vocals) and might be a little better in that regard, although it still has a boost up there.
Edited by - DougD on 04/27/2012 17:52:45
Learner - Posted - 04/27/2012: 18:39:15
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
..........................
As far as favorites, of what I own my favorite would be the Neumann KM-84, which is a very good microphone with flat response, but no longer made and out of this price range. Some people don't even like condenser mics for fiddle - why do you feel the need to change from the Heil (another mic I've never seen)? I've also used ribbons and high end dynamics with success.That said, I usually try to use condenser mics for instruments, although I've certainly used SM57s too....................
I've been using the Heil for about 3 months. It's a high output mic, as far as dynamic mics go. But it has a peak around 100 Hz, which tends to resonate with the drums and bass, as well as giving it a boomy, muddy sound. I can cut that with the sweepable mid band EQ on my ZED-10. But the actual best cut is centered from 120 to 180 Hz, depending on the stage acoustics, so in my mind the bump seems to be more between 120 and 180 Hz than down near 100.
The large 5K peak also seems to be less than desirable, considering how broad it is, how large it is (almost 8 dB), and that it is the maximum for the curve, with the higher frequencies tailing downward after it. It would have been nice to have less of a peak here, and maybe a slight bump up in the higher frequencies:
Why a condenser mic? Good question. My rationale for getting a condenser would be to be able to play back a bit farther from the mic, and still get a full frequency response, maybe enabling the mic to pick up more of the sound radiating off of the different areas of the fiddle. I'd like to be able to get 18 to 24" away from the mic.
The Blue enCORE 300 at first look seems to have a pretty weird frequency curve. But the more I've looked at it, I've come to think that it might just work. The low end bump is centered around 90 HZ, which would give some low end punch, but without muddiness (unless it turns out to be centered higher). Then there is a bump at 250 Hz, which would add some body. Then a slow rise from 500 to 4K. Then two more significant bumps, one at 7K and another at 15K. The 7K could provide some brightness, and 15K some high end sparkle. The 15K peak is large, but in the range that the 12K shelving EQ on my mixer would be able to dial it back nicely should it be too much.
The shape of the enCORE 300 curve may account for why some like this mic so much for vocals. Since the fiddle is so similar to the human voice, I'm thinking that it might just work:
But what looks intriguing on paper, and what sounds good with the fiddle, are two different things altogether, I know. Hence I'm hoping to get some real world opinions from fiddlers.
Frank
Learner - Posted - 04/27/2012: 19:21:54
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Sorry, Frank. I think its always been the 535EB - I meant the "s" as a plural. I'm just doing this off the top of my head though, so I might be a little off on some details. (as well as generally!)
Anyway, as you noticed the response on the C535 is quite flat. The peak that's there is above the "danger zone" for the fiddle, and I think is supposed to mimic the "airy" sound of the classic AKGs like the C12, which really is a superb microphone. Two other things that you seemed concerned with - Output level - I'm not quite sure how to interpret the specs, but I know from experience that the C535 is hotter than the C1000, although I don't think that's much of an issue unless you're distant micing a choir or something, which probably either of these could actually do, but would not be the best choice. Proximity effect - I believe that, given access, the best place to control this is at the mic. The C1000 has no provision for this, but you can certainly help it in the mixer. The 535 has a four position switch that's pretty well thought out - 1. Full output level, flat response; 2. Full output level, sharp rolloff at 100HZ (Useful for distant micing where there's AC or traffic noise); 3. Reduced ouput level, flat response (for use with systems that might not have variable input gain) 4. Reduced output level and gentle rolloff below 500Hz (to control proximity effect in close micing).
I sometimes use my two 535s and two C1000s more or less interchangeably in sound reinforcement, especially if I don't know how the stage might change, and they both sound quite good. I think the C1000 is a very good mic, and so do others - Of people I know Robin and Linda Williams carry a couple, and Rob Ickes of Blue Highway uses one on his Dobro.
In comparison, the Neumann KM84 has a flatter response, and I believe one of the smoothest cardiod patterns ever devised. It has no pad or rollof though, and can sound too "dull" or "boomy" on a close miced guitar, for example, which has to be dealt with in the board. I bought mine in 1980, and they are certainly the most accurate of my mics. I've used them on everything from choirs to classical vocal soloists, to many fiddlers - they're a really great mandolin mic (I think David Grisman likes them) and also for Dobro. Pretty much anything, if you know where to put it, and how to apply some EQ if needed. The current KM184 is brighter - I think Neumann responded to the desire for ever more present sound. Still a good mic I think, although I haven't used them.
Interestingly, I think the KM84 is an electret design, which has kind of an interesting history. In the days of tubes it was no problem to send a polarizing voltage to the capsule in a proprietary cable along with the voltages for the tube. I think the Neumann U87 and their KM series were the first transistorized mics, and phantom power was developed for them. I don't know, but I guess they used the electret because there was no more high voltage easily available. The usual knock on electrets is that they lose their polarizing charge, but as I said I've had the KM84's for over 30 years and AFAIK they're still going strong.
I sometimes used to discuss recording fiddles with Mike Seeger, who had been a studio recording engineer at one point, as well as a field recordist. He didn't like condenser mics for fiddles - he thought they had too much high end and were too brittle sounding (or scratchy maybe). He preferred ribbons, and I do own a couple, but I like condensers for live use, if the PA is good. They just sound more realistic to me.
Sorry for the ramble. Good luck with your choice. I wonder what other fiddlers in situations similar to yours prefer.
PS - The Audio Technica and Blue mics you listed are clearly designed as stage vocal mics, and the presence peak might not flatter a fiddle. The C1000 is more of a general purpose mic (although its quite good for vocals) and might be a little better in that regard, although it still has a boost up there.
Many thanks for your information here, Doug. Lot's of good detail.
I've dug up the frequency curves for the C 1000, C 535, and the ATM710 for comparisons:
The C535 does indeed seem to be the flatest. I especially like how flat it is all the way down to 100 Hz. No real coloration down there, which would be nice, I would guess. Pretty much flat in the high end, also. Now you've really got me thinking......
Edited by - Learner on 04/27/2012 19:23:16
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/27/2012: 21:06:14
I have both the Heil PR30 and the HeilPR35.
I'm curious as to exactly what you want done that the PR35 isn't doing.
(I see... the 100
I bought my PR35 first, then the PR30, and I'm a little happier with the PR30 for fiddle.
They have the same capsule, but the PR35 was a tweak of the PR30 according to Joan Baez' specs.
So it was designed to flatter a soprano female voice.
I find it a LOT darker sounding than the PR30. It REALLY surprised me how different the different housings make that same capsule sound!!! They are much farther apart IMO than the SM58 and the SM57, for example.
My condensers (admittedly nothing fancy- Studio Projects B1 mics) tend to be bright, the PR35 tends to be dark, and the PR30 is kind of in the middle. Different enough so that to my mind, a PR30 MIGHT be the answer.
Also, don't be afraid to use the PR35's bass roll-off switch. It's there for a reason!!! I like the middle setting best.
For my male baritone voice, it cuts the boominess, and if I DO use it for fiddle, where it keeps the low strings from overwhelming the rest. Actually I've found that the PR30 records fiddle better, and sounds a little better on fiddle live, BUT since I'm a singer too, and also gig with a banjo and guitar... the PR30 does better on those, so I keep it mounted lower. The PR35 sounds better on my voice, and with the bass roll off switch on the middle position isn't boomy, but also smoothes out an edginess my voice tends to have. The PR30 isn't as good of a vocal mic, although adequate, where it excels is as an instrument mic. And the PR35 is essentially a redesign as a vocal mic.
Another factor with the PR35... it is VERY sensitive to bass frequencies coming up through the mic stand, even though it has been designed with an internal shockmount to reduce handling noise.
One time, before I got the PR30, I was playing on some wooden risers, with the PR35 on a mic stand on the risers... and I was using the house speakers... which were on stands on the risers. The wooden risers transmitted bass from the speakers AND the stomping of my foot directly to my PR35!!! The immediate solution was to put the mic stand on the linoleum gym floor. Later, in searches about PR35s, I found that a guy who otherwise loved the mic had a real problem with it on... wooden riser stages. So if the stage acts like a bass drum, something has to be done... you could put something UNDER the mic stand, which would look funky. Or you could isolate the bass cab and the drums from the floor (you might try that as an experiment though) What I ended up doing in getting an On Stage Stands microphone mount, the MY-330:
markertek.com/Audio-Equipment/...330.xhtml
The blurb says:
"Same design as MY-325, with 30mm opening for wireless mics.When you're on stage, the last thing that you want to shake, rattle and roll is your mic. Designed to reduce the effects of low-end rumble and floor vibrations, the MY330 features a 5/8"-27 female threaded brass insert in a heavy-duty plastic base. The 30mm opening holds most name brand wireless microphones and grips your mic with 35lbs. of pressure!" (Emphasis mine- sounds like just what the doctor ordered!)
It has a built in shock mount, AND is very flexible... it really grips the PR35 well... part of the reason I got the PR30, was that mic-ing the fiddle from above was a problem with the rather hard supplied mic clip (which was an early PR35 package, supposedly since improved, but I haven't gotten to try the improved one)... it would tend to slip out of the clip and down onto the fiddle!!! It never does that with the MY-330, plus it seems much more thoroughly decoupled from the mic stand.
Anyway, try the OnStageStands MY-330. It might be a cheap solution.
One concern I would have with condensers is feedback. The Heil PR30 and PR35 have been very good about not feeding back... although I admit, if they do- it's usually at a lower frequency... it's not a squeal... it will start as a hum, then get louder.
My other concern is that you would lose the "ribbon-like smoothness" that the PR35 and PR30 capsule is noted for- for MY fiddles, that smoothness has been a tremendous plus- because they aren't fancy fiddles.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/27/2012 21:26:25
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/27/2012: 21:35:44
Arrggh!!! The 15 minute rule strikes again!!!
I got it now that your problem with the PR35 is the 100 Hz peak and the way it responds to the drums and bass.
The other thing I'd like to add is that the other big plus with the Heils has been their lack of proximity effect.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/28/2012: 00:06:42
Further thoughts:
One of the problems with mics is that it's a LOT like a fiddler or a violinist finding the right strings for them and their instruments.
What is absolutely stellar for someone else may bomb terribly in your situation, or at the very least is different enough that there is a learning curve and adaptation required (like synthetic strings need a lighter touch). The result is a very expensive trial and error process. I only bought the PR35 after doing scads of searches on mic'ing fiddles and finding a COUPLE people that liked them and the PR30 for that purpose... and even then, there has been a learning curve, and I only discovered after buying them both how different they were from each other.... the literature and testimonials didn't really bring that out.
Oh yeah... Darol Anger has a page somewhere on mic'ing fiddles, and one of the mics he mentioned as being good is the Audix OM6. I actually tried it on voice, and it was more like the PR30 than the PR35 in that it was smooth, yet articulate- no tendency to be dark or muddy.
One Blue microphone that was mentioned as being good for recording strings is the Blue Dragonfly.
But that's not a stage condenser at all. Yet it would be interesting to see how the specs match with the Blue Encore 300
Another aspect of mic'ing fiddles is the pickup pattern... fiddles/violins produce a complex cloud of sound, and you can't get the full flavor of that by using a mic with a tight pattern... it's only getting a piece of that total sound, and that particular piece of the cloud of sound might be edgier or muddier sounding than somebody in the room is hearing.
And then there is how the mic interacts with the mixer and its preamps- the preamp circuit in mixers, recording interfaces and sound boards is another unique thing, and rather mysterious. I was having all kinds of problems recording the fiddle, and blamed it all on the mics.... but the preamps on my first interface seemed to introduce edginess... the last thing most fiddles need. Then the next interface was kind of boomy, and the last thing the PR35 needed, The Peavey PV6 mixer/interface has good preamps, and the sound is neither harsh nor muddy. And then there are the speakers...they can hype things too, or sound harsh. I can't remember what they were now, but there was this guy using these highly acclaimed speakers, and they sounded so harsh to me. Maybe it was something else in the signal chain, but since the speakers are the last thing in the signal chain, I tend to blame them. Oh yeah, then there's the room... my main fiddle sounds radically different depending on the room.
Hmmmm..... here's a thought: the drums are an electronic set... that means they are going through the monitors- is the bass being run direct too??? The monitors are very possibly floor wedges, which are very possibly at the front of the stage... a very short distance from the mic stands... one of which the PR35 is on. The mic stand that picked up the vibrations from the risers so badly is the kind with a solid metal base. While your stage probably isn't as resonant as wooden risers (with no carpeting) if the mic stand with the Heil on it were close to monitors (or even stands for the mains) that had drums and bass going through it, you might likely get the same effect.
I haven't tried one yet, but I would guess that a tripod mic stand base would be less likely to do that because of the legs having a joint.... they aren't NEARLY as solidly coupled as the stand is to a solid metal base.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/28/2012 00:08:28
Learner - Posted - 04/28/2012: 06:08:32
Hello Michael:
Fortunately, the stage is not currently an issue. Our church meets in a high school. We used to meet in the auditorium, where we were up on a stage with an open area underneath. But for the last year we've been meeting in the cafeteria. The floor is linoleum over concrete. I do have some problems with controlling the electric bass, but that's due to the acoustics overhead, not underneath. I don't think anything is coming up through the mic stand. Good point, though.
I haven't given a full report here on the PR 35 since I'm still learning. One thing that really helped was getting a small Allen & Heath ZED-10FX mixer, which I have up on the stage with me. As our signals run from the snake head through a 150' snake, back to the house mixer, I needed to have some control over my sound where I am standing. The ZED-10 not only gave me this, but it also acts as the pre-amp for my mic, and gives me three bands of Allen & Heath EQ's, which are very useful. Two shelving (high & low), and one sweeepable semi-parametric mid range. I wish that this little board had two sweepable mids, as our main A&H board house board has. But it certainly helps just as it is. The first Sunday that I used it, our head technology deacon came up to me and (unsolicited) commented on how much clearer my fiddles sounded.
I talked to someone over at Heil about the PR 35. They also recommended that I use the middle position on the roll off switch. However, I didn't like it. It seemed to remove too much of the lower frequencies, but that could have just been due to my (nervous) playing or mic placement. Since I use heavy gauge strings, I like to really be able to hear the open G, and the A, B, and C on the G string, in all their splendor. The heavy gauge G gives these notes a viola-like quality. I was missing that with the middle roll off engaged.
Another issue is being able to keep my fiddles from sounding like a harmonica on the recordings. I may have been playing too far away from the mic originally. But those early recordings were really embarrassing to listen to. I haven't listened to myself on the service recordings lately, but I know that my stage sound coming back through the monitors has definitely improved. Being able to add some slight reverb via the onboard effects on the ZED-10 has also helped.
My motivation for wanting to go to a condenser is two-fold: better frequency response, and being able to play farther back. As others have explained here on the forums, the way that sound radiates from a fiddle is complex, and doesn't bloom properly when mic'ed too closely. Mic'ing close to the fiddle will sound more scratchy that mic'ing farther back. So I'd like to be able to play about 18-24" back from the mic. Maybe that will help get the sound that I am looking for. And it may be more convenient when playing.
I was even reading on a audio forum where someone was talking about mic'ing with a condenser mic from 10-20 feet back to get the best sound. Of course at that point, you'd be picking up a good portion of the other instruments also, which is not my intention. So I'm shooting for 18-24".
After a lot of reading, and Doug's comments, I'm leaning now towards the AKG C 535 EB. That frequency response curve looks very promising. I'd rather have a flat response, that I can tweak up where needed, than a peak-y response that requires cutting, all other things being equal.
Thanks,
Frank
Edited by - Learner on 04/28/2012 06:10:41
DougD - Posted - 04/28/2012: 07:23:18
Frank, not only is the 535 flatter but the peak is smoother, and begins above 5KHz, where the the boost in the other two begins around 2.5 KHz, which might not be what you need for a fiddle. Also, from the polar pattern it looks like the 535 is more directional at the low end, which might help you. The off-axis response has a lot to do with the sound of a mic in the real world, and is often overlooked.
One of the keys to clean mixing, as you probably know, is to have each mic picking up only its intended source. You can do this with positioning or EQ and I doubt you'll be able to get 18" to 24" inches away from any of these without picking up a lot of other stuff. As far as EQ, I believe the low G string on a violin is about 200Hz, and I'm not sure how much of that fundamental most instruments actually produce. Have you tried the HPF on your mixer? I routinely use them on fiddle, mandolin and female vocals, and it might help in this case. I found this article about violins that looks interesting, but haven't had a chance to read it yet: josephcurtinstudios.com/images...apart.pdf
You can't tell much from YouTube videos, but somebody here mentioned this clip, which I think has microphones in the Neumann KM family, but I can't tell which ones: youtube.com/watch?v=X2NGlBPFPTg That seems like a normal working distance for a live show. Also, it looks like Athena Tergis must have some kind of onboard setup, and she sounds pretty good too!
There's also a photo on my homepage here of Joe Thompson playing into one of my C1000s, FWIW, but I don't have a copy of that recording. Also there are some YouTubes of Clyde Davenport playing into my microphones, but its an AKG, but not one of these. KM84 on banjo and guitar though. I may have something recorded with the two AKGs I could send you, if you want to send me a PM, but it might not tell you much.
I agree with you about having an audio system with a flat response, especially mics and speakers - there are enough variables in the acoustic environment to deal with! However, sometimes a particular response is just what you need, which is why its nice to have an assortment of mics. I've bought quite a few over the years, and have managed to find uses for most of them, including both the 535s and C1000s.
Oh yes, I was wrong - the KM84 does have a 10 dB pad - don't know how I forgot that.
Edited by - DougD on 04/28/2012 07:27:52
Learner - Posted - 04/28/2012: 07:43:58
Hello Doug:
Regarding the fundamental for a fiddle: 200 Hz sounds correct for the G string, as you mention. But if I could ask you a question: would there also be resonant frequencies that occur at 1/2 of the fundamentals? I've never looked into it closely. Maybe they would be weak resonances, but I'm curious. Seems to me that mics that are poorly EQ'd can sometimes make a person's voice sound much more bassy than it really is? But I don't know if this is due to sub-fundamental resonances or not.
Edited by - Learner on 04/28/2012 07:44:25
DougD - Posted - 04/28/2012: 08:08:23
I don't really know, but most of what little I've read implies that even the fundamentals are not very strong on the lower strings. Try Googling "Violin frequency response" to find some information. This article looks interesting: soundonsound.com/sos/apr99/art...rings.htm
I think the bassiness on vocals is either from a deliberate boost in the 100-200Hz range, like what's giving you trouble with the Heil, or proximity effect, which almost all directional mics have - not usually anything in the voice itself.
Learner - Posted - 04/28/2012: 14:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
I don't really know, but most of what little I've read implies that even the fundamentals are not very strong on the lower strings. Try Googling "Violin frequency response" to find some information. This article looks interesting: soundonsound.com/sos/apr99/art...rings.htm
I think the bassiness on vocals is either from a deliberate boost in the 100-200Hz range, like what's giving you trouble with the Heil, or proximity effect, which almost all directional mics have - not usually anything in the voice itself.
Wow, thanks for this, Doug. What a great article!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/28/2012: 15:34:18
Learner,
No, linoleum on concrete shouldn't be a problem!
Other ideas:
By turning the gain up a bit (but not too much) you can get the Heil to pick up more...
probably not 18" though.
Also, you haven't said how you are positioning the Heil PR35.
Somewhere I heard that mic'ing a fiddle from above, to the left and slightly behind is a good angle. (to the left of the players left ear.) That definitely is going to cause the mic to pick up the low end. My Heils seem to like this position... but it doesn't work for me completely, since I need to sing with the fiddle. But I still tend to aim it at the left side. And aimed that way, it really DOES need the bass roll-off. If you mic the fiddle from above with the PR35... you either need a very grippy mic clip, or secure the mic with some black gaffer tape.
I did a search in mic'ing fiddles, and came up with this;
mixonline.com/recording/tracki...dex1.html
Granted, it's recording, not live PA, and it's Bluegrass, but still interesting.
The fiddle section is second, and four guys share their techniques.
I thought it was interesting that one guy said that the fiddle was by far the hardest of the instruments to mic,
and that the mic positions might change DEPENDING ON WHAT KEY they were in!!!
It just occurred to me that you are probably going for a more violinny sound, and if so, the distance mic'ing is probably the right direction... I read that fiddlers and violinists ARE mic'd differently, with fiddlers being mic'ed closer, and violinists from farther away.
However, I am concerned that if the Heil (which has a broader pickup pattern than your average dynamic) is picking up the drums and bass, a condenser might be picking up stuff too... maybe not drums and bass, maybe something else.
BUT if you the the AKG C 535, or whatever you get- I sure hope it works out for you- and let us know, whether it does or not- we may need to know too!!!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/28/2012 15:46:27
hardykefes - Posted - 04/28/2012: 15:41:22
DougD, thanks for the great link. Just adding: every violin has it's sweet spot. You gotta play around with the best position, angle and distance.
DougD - Posted - 04/28/2012: 17:27:10
fiddlepogo - Thanks for posting that article - its very informative. It's interesting that several good engineers have such different ideas about micing similar instruments, and sometimes the same artists and individual instruments. Just goes to show that there's more than one way to skin the cat(gut)! That and the one I found should provide some good ideas, although as you said, the recording environment can be quite different.
I was glad to see that the KM84 was often mentioned, as well as its tube predecessors. I've also used some of the other mics they used, but can't afford most of them, and wouldn't use them for live sound much either.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/28/2012: 23:53:44
Doug,
Sure, and thanks for sharing your article too. And the variety of approaches really is amazing.
Really about the only approach that seems common is an SM57, and that's because they're everywhere, and a lot of people use them for everything.... well, I see a lot of fiddlers on YouTube playing through SM58s.... same deal.
Doug,
I've been doing some searches, first because the one guy used the Studio Projects stereo mic with great success on Mike Cleveland. Somehow, I noticed the Audio Technica ATM350. It's an instrument mic, and used both live and for recording, and gets a lot of good reviews. And it's not too terribly expensive either. Have you ever used it on fiddle or violin???
DougD - Posted - 04/29/2012: 05:49:47
Michael, if that's the little clip on mic, yes a lot of contra dance fiddlers use them, but not with the mount that goes between the bridge and tailpiece. It looks like that would point the mic right at the monitors (and the house speakers too for that matter). They use a little gooseneck clipped to the bridge or tailpiece (I never really looked). One problem is that its always on, so some players have a little custom box with a mute switch and volume control to be able to tune silently. I used to do sound for a weeklong "country dance" school which had a dance every night where the band would change, sometimes gradually, one or two players at a time, and sometimes completely all at once. Typically I'd put up my two 535s and two C1000s, plus a couple mic lines for people that wanted to plug in. Sometimes there would be two, three or even four fiddlers with a mix of approaches, and from where I was sitting at the board they all sounded pretty good, with sometimes a little touch of EQ.
If I were considering a clip on (and you might want to Frank) I'd also look at the Bartlett mics: bartlettmics.com/fiddlemic.html
boxbow - Posted - 04/29/2012: 07:36:19
My thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I'm utterly ignorant of the subject. I'll be reviewing it in the hopes that it'll become clearer, or that I'll think of some good questions to ask. Its a lot of highly relevant fiddle information. Thanks again to everyone.
Learner - Posted - 04/30/2012: 12:46:52
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Learner,
No, linoleum on concrete shouldn't be a problem!
Other ideas:
By turning the gain up a bit (but not too much) you can get the Heil to pick up more...
probably not 18" though.
Also, you haven't said how you are positioning the Heil PR35.
Somewhere I heard that mic'ing a fiddle from above, to the left and slightly behind is a good angle. (to the left of the players left ear.) That definitely is going to cause the mic to pick up the low end. My Heils seem to like this position... but it doesn't work for me completely, since I need to sing with the fiddle. But I still tend to aim it at the left side. And aimed that way, it really DOES need the bass roll-off. If you mic the fiddle from above with the PR35... you either need a very grippy mic clip, or secure the mic with some black gaffer tape.
I did a search in mic'ing fiddles, and came up with this;
mixonline.com/recording/tracki...dex1.html
Granted, it's recording, not live PA, and it's Bluegrass, but still interesting.
The fiddle section is second, and four guys share their techniques.
I thought it was interesting that one guy said that the fiddle was by far the hardest of the instruments to mic,
and that the mic positions might change DEPENDING ON WHAT KEY they were in!!!
It just occurred to me that you are probably going for a more violinny sound, and if so, the distance mic'ing is probably the right direction... I read that fiddlers and violinists ARE mic'd differently, with fiddlers being mic'ed closer, and violinists from farther away.
However, I am concerned that if the Heil (which has a broader pickup pattern than your average dynamic) is picking up the drums and bass, a condenser might be picking up stuff too... maybe not drums and bass, maybe something else.
BUT if you the the AKG C 535, or whatever you get- I sure hope it works out for you- and let us know, whether it does or not- we may need to know too!!!
Hello Michael:
I can probably get 18" away, and still get picked up by the mic. But at that distance I don't like the sound. So I'm usually about 6" away. Better, but still not meaty enough. I think that the almost 8 dB hump around 5k is a major source of the problem. Maybe great for vocals, but the fiddles fundamentals appear to be getting lost.
Learner - Posted - 04/30/2012: 17:36:16
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
.......If I were considering a clip on (and you might want to Frank) I'd also look at the Bartlett mics: bartlettmics.com/fiddlemic.html
Hello Doug:
I've resisted going to a clip on mic, although I admit that they have their advantages. Here are my reasons:
* Sometimes we may do a song that we didn't rehearse ahead of time that weekend. Or a song where I've forgotten a riff, etc. With a stand mic I can just step back, turn sideways, etc.
* Same logic for very quite passages. I can just step back, and not have to mess with a volume control.
* I usually have both my fiddles set up. If something bad should happen, I have my spare ready to go. Also, I often switch fiddles, since they sound somewhat different. My "travel" fiddle has more "grit", or bite to the sound. My french fiddle sounds smoother. So I'd need to have two clip ons.
But sometimes the idea of a clip on mic is appealing.
Best wishes,
Frank
Learner - Posted - 04/30/2012: 17:44:09
Good news: Guitar Center sent me a $30 off e-coupon. So I went ahead and ordered the AKG C 535 EG (thanks for the feedback on this mic, Doug).
Hopefully it will arrive before the weekend, and I'll be able to use it on Sunday. I'm excited!
I'll be certain to report back.
DougD - Posted - 04/30/2012: 18:31:24
Frank, Yes I agree with all your reasons. I always use a stand mic too.
Hope the 535 works for you, and that you get the time to explore its potential (working distance, the EQ and so on). Mine are usually set on full output with the rolloff, just because you don't need the very low end for fiddle or mandolin, and usually not for guitar either. The switch is a little hard to deal with, but you'll understand.
Let us know how it goes.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/30/2012: 19:41:40
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Michael, if that's the little clip on mic, yes a lot of contra dance fiddlers use them, but not with the mount that goes between the bridge and tailpiece. It looks like that would point the mic right at the monitors (and the house speakers too for that matter). They use a little gooseneck clipped to the bridge or tailpiece (I never really looked). One problem is that its always on, so some players have a little custom box with a mute switch and volume control to be able to tune silently. I used to do sound for a weeklong "country dance" school which had a dance every night where the band would change, sometimes gradually, one or two players at a time, and sometimes completely all at once. Typically I'd put up my two 535s and two C1000s, plus a couple mic lines for people that wanted to plug in. Sometimes there would be two, three or even four fiddlers with a mix of approaches, and from where I was sitting at the board they all sounded pretty good, with sometimes a little touch of EQ.
If I were considering a clip on (and you might want to Frank) I'd also look at the Bartlett mics: bartlettmics.com/fiddlemic.html
Ack... sorry!!! I meant the ATM 450!!!!
I found out a couple years back that I'm dyscalculic and that's the syndrome behind my poor number retention.... yes, I've heard of the ATM350 a lot ever since I got back into fiddling. But some people use the ATM450 for strings. It's unusual in that it's a SIDE-ADDRESS small diaphragm condenser.. stand mounted, NOT a clip on like the ATM350.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/30/2012: 21:06:19
quote:
Originally posted by Learner
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Learner,
No, linoleum on concrete shouldn't be a problem!
Other ideas:
By turning the gain up a bit (but not too much) you can get the Heil to pick up more...
probably not 18" though.
Also, you haven't said how you are positioning the Heil PR35.
Somewhere I heard that mic'ing a fiddle from above, to the left and slightly behind is a good angle. (to the left of the players left ear.) That definitely is going to cause the mic to pick up the low end. My Heils seem to like this position... but it doesn't work for me completely, since I need to sing with the fiddle. But I still tend to aim it at the left side. And aimed that way, it really DOES need the bass roll-off. If you mic the fiddle from above with the PR35... you either need a very grippy mic clip, or secure the mic with some black gaffer tape.
I did a search in mic'ing fiddles, and came up with this;
mixonline.com/recording/tracki...dex1.html
Granted, it's recording, not live PA, and it's Bluegrass, but still interesting.
The fiddle section is second, and four guys share their techniques.
I thought it was interesting that one guy said that the fiddle was by far the hardest of the instruments to mic,
and that the mic positions might change DEPENDING ON WHAT KEY they were in!!!
It just occurred to me that you are probably going for a more violinny sound, and if so, the distance mic'ing is probably the right direction... I read that fiddlers and violinists ARE mic'd differently, with fiddlers being mic'ed closer, and violinists from farther away.
However, I am concerned that if the Heil (which has a broader pickup pattern than your average dynamic) is picking up the drums and bass, a condenser might be picking up stuff too... maybe not drums and bass, maybe something else.
BUT if you the the AKG C 535, or whatever you get- I sure hope it works out for you- and let us know, whether it does or not- we may need to know too!!!
Hello Michael: I can probably get 18" away, and still get picked up by the mic. But at that distance I don't like the sound. So I'm usually about 6" away. Better, but still not meaty enough. I think that the almost 8 dB hump around 5k is a major source of the problem. Maybe great for vocals, but the fiddles fundamentals appear to be getting lost.
Do you notice any difference between the beater fiddle and the better fiddle???
Eh, I wished we all lived in the same town, so we could bring our mics and experiment--
I could heard your new AKG mic, and you could hear the difference between the PR35 and the PR30,
Doug could hear both of them, and we could hear whatever cool mics Doug has.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/30/2012 21:15:55
DougD - Posted - 05/01/2012: 05:47:06
No, I've never seen the ATM450, which is a relatively new mic. From the specs, the high end looks a little weird, and what reviews I could find were so-so. I do have an AT2020, which is a budget side address mic, that came as a freebie with something else. It sounds good on guitar, mandolin and voice, but I've never tried it on fiddle.
Learner - Posted - 05/04/2012: 14:59:04
Yippee! I just picked up the C535EB at Guitar Center. I'll try it out this weekend and post a first impression next week.
It's strange how AKG shows the C535 as being for vocals in their usage chart, and the C1000 as used for strings and acoustics, when the C535 clearly has the flatter frequency response.
It's also interesting how small the C535 is, compared to the Heil PR35. The C535 is really tiny. Weirdly small, for a vocal mic. The body is very slender and short.
Edited by - Learner on 05/04/2012 15:04:36
DougD - Posted - 05/04/2012: 17:53:59
Hope you enjoy the mic, Frank. As far as I can tell, AKG lists the same uses for both mics in the manuals, and describes the 535 as a vocal/instrument microphone. It is a very good vocal mic, and has been used by a lot of demanding performers. The small size is actually an advantage because it doesn't obscure the performer's face as much, especially important for film or TV work. The C1000 is quite a bit more intrusive.
BTW, condenser mics can be affected by humidity, and an AKG field rep happened to be in the store when I picked up a couple of mine. He recommended that I always put the little silica gel package that comes with them right on top of the capsule end when I put the mics away, and I've always done that.
Learner - Posted - 05/06/2012: 12:17:00
Wow!
No, I mean WOW!!!
What a great mic! Used my new AKG C535EG this morning, running it through my A&H ZED10-FX. On the stage I could immediately tell the difference. I ran it flat on the EQ at first. Later I boosted 200 Hz by 3 dB, to give more response to my the low G through C notes. I also may have cut the 12k shelving by 1 dB.
What was really great was hearing the same thing in the monitor as I was hearing under my ear. That's how flat the response is on this mic. Extremely low amount of frequency coloration.
Learner - Posted - 05/06/2012: 16:47:16
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Hope you enjoy the mic, Frank. As far as I can tell, AKG lists the same uses for both mics in the manuals, and describes the 535 as a vocal/instrument microphone. It is a very good vocal mic, and has been used by a lot of demanding performers. The small size is actually an advantage because it doesn't obscure the performer's face as much, especially important for film or TV work. The C1000 is quite a bit more intrusive.
BTW, condenser mics can be affected by humidity, and an AKG field rep happened to be in the store when I picked up a couple of mine. He recommended that I always put the little silica gel package that comes with them right on top of the capsule end when I put the mics away, and I've always done that.
Thanks much for the tip, Doug. I almost threw that pack away. I've put it in the mic pouch now.
But I don't really know what good it will do in the long term. Those get packs absorb a certain amount of moister, and then can't absorb any more, unless one should recharge them (sometimes can be done in an oven to drive out the moisture).
Learner - Posted - 05/06/2012: 16:57:19
quote:
Originally posted by Learner
Wow!
No, I mean WOW!!!
What a great mic! Used my new AKG C535EG this morning, running it through my A&H ZED10-FX. On the stage I could immediately tell the difference. I ran it flat on the EQ at first. Later I boosted 200 Hz by 3 dB, to give more response to my the low G through C notes. I also may have cut the 12k shelving by 1 dB.
What was really great was hearing the same thing in the monitor as I was hearing under my ear. That's how flat the response is on this mic. Extremely low amount of frequency coloration.
I also tried listening to the recording that we make of the music every week. The fiddle sounded better on that also, although it was difficult hearing the fiddle above the other instruments, even on parts where I had a lead, due to the nature of our mix. We just record what goes to the house mains, which is not ideal, since instruments tend to be reduced in favor of vocals. This is due to the stage volume of the instruments contributing to the house sound.
Next week I'll spend some time with the sound tech getting the fiddle dialed into the mix better. I also will experiment more with mic placement, to see where the optimal postion and distance work out to be.
Edited by - Learner on 05/06/2012 16:57:59
DougD - Posted - 05/08/2012: 09:39:02
Glad you like the mic, Frank. Its always fun to find a new tool that really does the job. If you need to, it also works well on lots of other things - solo vocalists, groups, choirs, drum overheads, hi hat and other percussion, other stringed instruments - guitar, mandolin, acoustic bass, Dobro, and I've also used them on clarinet, oboe, flute and recorders.
You're probably right about the silica gel losing effectiveness. I've had these mics for years and just keep using those original packs. Maybe they don't really help after awhile, but that's what the AKG rep recommended.
Happy fiddling.
Edited by - DougD on 05/08/2012 09:40:15
fiddlepogo - Posted - 05/08/2012: 09:53:20
quote:
Originally posted by Learner
Wow!
No, I mean WOW!!!
What a great mic! Used my new AKG C535EG this morning, running it through my A&H ZED10-FX. On the stage I could immediately tell the difference. I ran it flat on the EQ at first. Later I boosted 200 Hz by 3 dB, to give more response to my the low G through C notes. I also may have cut the 12k shelving by 1 dB.
What was really great was hearing the same thing in the monitor as I was hearing under my ear. That's how flat the response is on this mic. Extremely low amount of frequency coloration.
Oh my.... I DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT need another mic!!!!
(attempting to stifle M.A.S- Microphone Acquisition Syndrome)
Congrats on the successfully appropriate mic purchase to your needs!!!
fiddlinround - Posted - 05/20/2012: 08:42:25
The At 4040a and At 4050 are our bands choice. The fiddler can sing in one mic and then take 2 steps to the left to play his break or whatever. They are separated onstage by 6-8 feet or so and the 4050 we try and keep for banjo and fiddle breaks then the musician can move back and forth to sing. Makes it more dynamic and we dont have to stand with out feet planted for 3 hr gigs.
Wally
fiddler59 - Posted - 08/10/2012: 05:53:30
I was researching mics and I am going to take a crap shoot and have ordered a Blue Encore 300 for micing my fiddle. Our band already has been using the Blue Encore 200 for vocals and the Encore 100i for micing guitar, mandolin and banjo with fantastic results. I have heard great things about the Encore 300 so I fidured I would take a chance and see how it worked for fiddle. I will report back with my thoughts after I receive it next week. B&H Photo has the Blue Encore 300 right now for $150. Hard to go wrong at that price.
David Blackmon
DougD - Posted - 08/10/2012: 06:17:33
Let us know how you like it. Its a vocal microphone, but according to the Blue website the frequency response is somewhat different than most of that breed. Good luck.
fiddler59 - Posted - 08/16/2012: 19:13:57
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Let us know how you like it. Its a vocal microphone, but according to the Blue website the frequency response is somewhat different than most of that breed. Good luck.
Well the Blue Encore 300 came in a couple of days ago. I played with it around the house testing it through our band PA and played a four hour gig with it tonight. This mic is just incredible. It really captures the natural tone of the fiddle....doesn't sound hyped in the high end at all but yet is very clear and detailed. It seems to be very immune to feedback. I could get the fiddle MUCH louder than using my old AT Pro37r before feedback would creep in. The mic, when used for the fiddle, sounds very full and rich with a really articulate open high end that sounds very pleasing with no nasty screetch at all. I can honestly say it is one of the best fiddle mics I have used for live sound and I have used a lot of different mics through my years of performing. Needless to say it is a top flight vocal mic as that is what the mic was originally designed for. I will be carrying this mic to every gig whether we supply the PA or not.
David Blackmon
