Rene - Posted - 03/29/2012:  17:54:50

I'm sure there is a past thread buried deep within the archives of FHO that discussed this, but alas I don't have hours (or patience) to hunt, dig and sort, so with that being said.............

What is a good bpm for a typical hoedown.  I am slow...slow learner, slow to follow directions, slow to return phone calls, check email, slow fiddle player.  So anyway you get the jest of it there.  I'm always asked to play a hoedown and there I stand thinking "good grief" here we go again.  I've done a little googling on it and really don't know much more than I did  (there is that slow learning thing again).   Seriously this is one area I am struggling with and am open to your thoughts and opinions....take it easy on me though, I am quick to anger

richdissmore - Posted - 03/29/2012:  17:57:37

turkey in the straw that a real hoe down

Mandogryl - Posted - 03/29/2012:  18:47:39

No set Bpm. I've seen from 100 to 180.
Quite a clip at any rate

Rene - Posted - 03/29/2012:  18:51:28

Perhaps a better question would be "what constitutes a hoedown?

DougD - Posted - 03/29/2012:  18:51:41

Ha ha. Even if you'd had the patience (a virtue I hear) to search, you might not have found much. There seems to be a little confusion here about "bpm." Ha ha ha.

You know, a few weeks ago I was playing at a barndance in the next county. Somebody yelled "Hoedown!" and half the girls there hit the floor.

Maybe 120bpm or above. Fast. Depends on who's dancing. Rich is right - "Turkey in the Straw" is a good example.

Edited by - DougD on 03/29/2012 18:59:25

martynspeck - Posted - 03/29/2012:  19:34:42

What are we counting there? Is that 120 quarter notes / minute or what?

KCFiddles - Posted - 03/29/2012:  19:46:41

Somewhere around 120 quarter notes (crotchets) per minute in 2/4 time usually. Detail of the tune in sixteenth notes (semiquavers).

Mainly at a speed appropriate for the dance.

Hoedown is an American name for a lively dance tune such as a reel.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/29/2012:  20:21:38

Confusion lies in what folks are identifying as the"beat" in bpm. I seriously doubt Turkey in the Straw is played at 180 bpm with the same reference as 100 bpm, that the former is nearly twice as fast. 180 would sound silly (ridiculously fast) in using the same reference to 100 beat; as would 100 sound incredibly slow (not hoedown like at all) using the 180. 

Hoedown, a fast lively tune. Generally in reference to dancing. Dancing is a good way to think about beat, and then bpm. Walk, a relaxed even pace, each place you put your foot down is "the Beat" - that you use the right then the left gives a rocking back and forth feel;  so the bpm is just a simple reflection of that. 80 is not too fast, by the time you get to 100 you might put a little spring in that step, a feeling of being propelled forward; 120 is a bit more of a spring, more of a moving forward feel, yet not quite a jogging pace. 140 gets to be a bit like  rhythmic jogging (not running or sprinting) That is pushing the range folks think of for tunes related to dance. Hoedown, then generally, though subjective, somewhere in maybe 110-130, which folks would accept as a hoedown, but could go down to say 100 for a slow hoedown concept, or up to 140 for a fast hoedown. 120 is easy to figure with an old fashioned tick-tock clock, 2 beats every second, your right foot hits the floor every second.

This though didn't exactly explain it in connection to the music. It is generally the same beat that listeners would clap along to, or tap their toe to. It is not notes per minute. For many fiddle tunes it might have up to 4 notes per beat going Right-e-and-a-Left-e-and -a....

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/29/2012 20:31:49

mswlogo - Posted - 03/29/2012:  20:27:23

quote:

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Originally posted by martynspeck

What are we counting there? Is that 120 quarter notes / minute or what?

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Here we go again. fiddlehangout.com/topic/27217

120 Dance Steps Per minute. Approx 35 seconds to get through a 32 Bar tune (typical AA-BB).

It depends on how the tune is written. Here is Turkey in Straw that so happens to be written here in 4/4, on that, it would be 120 Half Notes / Minute.

abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=abc....txt/0090

This is 60 BPM (about 1 minute to get one time through the whole tune)

abcnotation.com/getResource/do....txt/0090

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/29/2012:  21:14:01

quote:

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Originally posted by mswlogo

It depends on how the tune is written. Here is Turkey in Straw that so happens to be written here in 4/4, on that, it would be 120 Half Notes / Minute.

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 You got a typo there, in that 4/4 representation it would be 120 quarter notes per minute, or 60 half beats per minute.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/29/2012 21:19:37

DougD - Posted - 03/30/2012:  03:38:21

There happens to be a recording of "Turkey in the Straw" on my music page here:  fiddlehangout.com%2Fmyh...cID%3D5215">fiddlehangout.com%2Fmyh...cID%3D5215" target="_blank">hangoutstorage.com/jukebox.asp...ID%3D5215  It was at an art opening, not a dance, but you can pretty clearly hear the feet of some dancers and the bass notes on the guitar marking the beat. It starts a little slow, but once it gets going its about 120 bpm. You can check it with this little gizmo - all8.com/tools/bpm.htm  There is no notation involved - just the beat. mswlogo - you had it right in your other thread when you said "My Snark tuner has BPM Meter in it. I just tap it to the "Down Beat" and it returns BPM. How does it know if the tune is in 4/4 or 2/2. It doesn't matter !!" You should just leave it at that (although your use of "down beat" isn't really correct - "strong beat" would be better).

Edited by - DougD on 03/30/2012 03:49:33

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/30/2012:  04:10:06

Here is another example of Turkey in the Straw from the Cultural Equity site of Alan Lomax recordings.

research.culturalequity.org/rc...gId=25710

Clips along at a pretty good pace, and I think most folks would when requesting a Hoedown would be satissified with anything like this. You can pretty clearly hear one musician stomping his foot "on the beat" - defining the common usage of the term beat, and based on that it seems about 130 or so. The exact number is not really important, it's the range, the feel. Can't imagine wanting to do very much faster (maybe up to 140) without diluting the concept of "hoedown" - A hoedown (to meet expectations) wouldn't have to be this fast, does lead to the question of how slow could it be and still qualify?

And BTW if the request is coming from a dance caller, or dancers, you can always ask them to tap the beat of how fast. With callers I do often have them set the beat for the dance.

Edit: Doug, I guess you posted while I were typing. That version at 120 sounds like what I think would be expected as a Hoedown. I agree with not getting too hung up on bpm, rather just familiarize with listening to music and then when you go to play, how fast feels right for the tune and situation. You'll find you have tunes you can go faster on, and some that just feel better at a moderate pace.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/30/2012 04:19:56

fiddleiphile - Posted - 03/30/2012:  04:18:16

The T-Shirts are in the mail!

TimK - Posted - 03/30/2012:  04:30:48

quote:

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Originally posted by Rene

Perhaps a better question would be "what constitutes a hoedown?

 

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 All fiddle contests require a hoe down. Most define that as a fast tune in 2/4 or 4/4 time that is suitable for square dancing. A reel is normally not considered a hoe down because it is too fast for a square dance.

Rene - Posted - 03/31/2012:  09:16:08

Lot of good helpful info. Alaskafiddler good advice on walking and such..

mswlogo - Posted - 03/31/2012:  10:08:25

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

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Originally posted by mswlogo

It depends on how the tune is written. Here is Turkey in Straw that so happens to be written here in 4/4, on that, it would be 120 Half Notes / Minute.

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 You got a typo there, in that 4/4 representation it would be 120 quarter notes per minute, or 60 half beats per minute.

For the most part I suggest don't get too wrapped up if it's written in 4/4, 2/4, 2/2 with a C or a C with a line through it (cut time) - they are generally all intended to be played the same.

 

That example is pretty slow, (so slow the "beat" might not "pop" out)and I don't think is what folks have in mind when they think "hoedown" - rather than trying to calculate notation, meter, signatures and bpm, listening works pretty well, and probably all the person who requested a hoedown is going to be using. It doesn't probably matter to them what definition and calculation you think is correct, is how music theory is, what you read in a book or web site, or was told by a teacher what  about the proper bpm and how to interpret that; you play that example and my guess is they won't be thinking "hoedown"

 

 

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I agree that example is too slow at 60 half notes per minute. Which is why it should be played at 120 half notes per minute.

Edited by - mswlogo on 03/31/2012 10:09:21

p1cklef1sh - Posted - 03/31/2012:  21:28:30

260 bpm or as fast as you can play, or they can dance which ever is slower!!! :)

DougD - Posted - 03/31/2012:  22:29:07

Speaking of hoedowns and "Turkey in the Straw," I'm pretty sure this is both:  archive.org/details/EckRoberts...Straw1922

DougD - Posted - 04/01/2012:  19:59:16

One more version: youtube.com/watch?v=TJJo4WtR3vs  About 140 BPM, pretty effortlessly. It seems the better fiddlers can do that if they want to.

Edited by - DougD on 04/01/2012 20:00:02