Andah1andah2 - Posted - 03/19/2012:  18:34:39

So I've had this tune down for a a while now and while it sounds pretty good, I want it to sound like this young lady plays it:

youtube.com/watch?v=MDmJSV4Xyi0

But I can't.  I just can't get it to groove like she does.  I don't know how to describe the feel, but hers just swings like good old mountain music.  Can anyone shed any light on how to get that beat?  Is she emphasizing something that can be explained in her bowing?  It's a style that I want to learn for other tunes too.  

SamY - Posted - 03/19/2012:  19:19:52

Watch her wrist. It's all in having a rubber wrist controlling the bow!!

fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 03/19/2012:  19:26:19

Yes, nice wrist.  And, no hurry to the tune.  I like it.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/19/2012:  20:33:09

She does have good wrist action. Short strokes, minimum of motion, allowing for a very relaxed feel.

Thanks for pointing this out- this is about the first version of Chinese Breakdown I LIKE.



There is something else going on... without trying to directly learn it off the video, I'm guessing she is using bowings

very similar to Melvin Wine's-

1. She occasionally uses a pair or eight note pattern of Nashville Shuffles.

2. She uses short bursts of sawstroke with an upstroke right afterwared- could be

1-1-1-3-1-1 (What I call Sawshuffle and Brad Leftwich calls Melvin's Lick)

3. She also uses these pairs of long slurs of equal length that could be what I call

Smoothshuffle or a variant-

3-3-1-1. Brad Leftwich considers this a variant of Melvin's Lick since it's mathematically similar- I use a different term

since it SOUNDS so different from 1-1-1-3-1-1.

The way such relaxed bowing with slurs is driving the melody so well is very characteristic

of Smoothshuffle and Sawshuffle... the three note slurs cross the "measure lines" and the halfway point of the measure,

and this pushes the rhythm somehow. It's related to how a Double Shuffle operates in groups of threes, but is in 4/4-

such a pattern is related to ragtime and bluegrass rhythms and also something called hemiola in classical music.  It's also related to the difference between bluegrass banjo rolls and classical banjo arpeggios.

 One reason I'm not absolutely sure about what she's doing is that, unlike Melvin Wine, Elizabeth is using shorter bow strokes, and this makes them harder to "read" by watching videos

If you to try to play this with only Nashville Shuffle or two note slurs mixed with sawstroke, I think you would be trying in vain to get the same groove.

I just uploaded a tune to my tunes section I recorded in 2007 and overdubbed with guitar- see if you don't think it has a similar feel- it's almost all Sawshuffle and Smoothshuffle.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 03/19/2012 20:49:09

oldtimer - Posted - 03/19/2012:  21:51:49

It also helps to have a good banjo-uke player. No kidding, I have experienced the difference...the rhythm of a skillful banjo-uke player can suddenly make OK music feel like it goes into overdrive and easily swings.

stay tooned....

Glenn Godsey

RobBob - Posted - 03/20/2012:  05:50:55

Well first of all Chinese Breakdown is not what I would call a "groove" tune.  They get  a great feel from the rag and the whole jam is well played.  Breaking Up Christmas is a groove tune or Brushy Fork of John's Creek or Ride Old Buck to Water are groove tunes IMHO.  CB is a fun old rag that used to be played in C but over the last 35 or 40 years has migrated to D.  Go figure.  It works well in both keys, good tunes do that.

DougD - Posted - 03/20/2012:  06:47:34

Glenn - In that clip I'm pretty sure Kevin Fitch is playing a regular wooden ukulele, although he also plays banjo uke.

I first learned "Chinese Breakdown" from this recording:  youtube.com/watch?v=f0AncD61Pwg

As RobBob mentioned, its in C.

Edited by - DougD on 03/20/2012 06:49:32

p1cklef1sh - Posted - 03/20/2012:  07:00:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

She does have good wrist action. Short strokes, minimum of motion, allowing for a very relaxed feel.

Thanks for pointing this out- this is about the first version of Chinese Breakdown I LIKE.



There is something else going on... without trying to directly learn it off the video, I'm guessing she is using bowings

very similar to Melvin Wine's-

1. She occasionally uses a pair or eight note pattern of Nashville Shuffles.

2. She uses short bursts of sawstroke with an upstroke right afterwared- could be

1-1-1-3-1-1 (What I call Sawshuffle and Brad Leftwich calls Melvin's Lick)

3. She also uses these pairs of long slurs of equal length that could be what I call

Smoothshuffle or a variant-

3-3-1-1. Brad Leftwich considers this a variant of Melvin's Lick since it's mathematically similar- I use a different term

since it SOUNDS so different from 1-1-1-3-1-1.

The way such relaxed bowing with slurs is driving the melody so well is very characteristic

of Smoothshuffle and Sawshuffle... the three note slurs cross the "measure lines" and the halfway point of the measure,

and this pushes the rhythm somehow. It's related to how a Double Shuffle operates in groups of threes, but is in 4/4-

such a pattern is related to ragtime and bluegrass rhythms and also something called hemiola in classical music.  It's also related to the difference between bluegrass banjo rolls and classical banjo arpeggios.

 One reason I'm not absolutely sure about what she's doing is that, unlike Melvin Wine, Elizabeth is using shorter bow strokes, and this makes them harder to "read" by watching videos

If you to try to play this with only Nashville Shuffle or two note slurs mixed with sawstroke, I think you would be trying in vain to get the same groove.

I just uploaded a tune to my tunes section I recorded in 2007 and overdubbed with guitar- see if you don't think it has a similar feel- it's almost all Sawshuffle and Smoothshuffle.

---

 I thought I saw shuffle but didnt want to say incase I was wrong.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/20/2012:  11:12:00

I forgot to say WHAT tune I had added-

Walkin' In My Sleep!

(I may have been POSTING in my sleep!)

Here it is:

fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/mu...ddcomment

The playing is rougher than hers, and the tune is different, but I think you can hear the odd but cool rolling feel 3-3-1-1 gives to the long notes-

and both Chinese Breakdown AND Walkin' In My Sleep have a lot of them.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/20/2012:  11:19:35

RobBob,



You pointed out that Chinese Breakdown is actually a rag... I've noticed that myself.



3-3-1-1 aka Melvin's Lick aka Smoothshuffle was apparently sometimes called "Rag Bow" by oldtimers.



There is a small video clip in the Library of Congress archives where Alan Jabbour describes Henry Reed's use of it,

and I think he uses the term.

Ahhh... here it is:

memory.loc.gov/ammem/collectio...bour.html

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 03/20/2012 11:20:38

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/20/2012:  12:57:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

[...]

She also uses these pairs of long slurs of equal length that could be what I call

Smoothshuffle or a variant-

3-3-1-1. Brad Leftwich considers this a variant of Melvin's Lick since it's mathematically similar

---

Brad's variant of the dudu uudu sawshuffle is very similar to your dddu uudu smoothshuffle (in that they both contain a pair of adjacent 3-slurs, and two sawed notes), but it's not quite just a shifted version of smoothshuffle.

For all of the patterns that Brad introduces (including, even, the "all sawstrokes" pattern), he ALWAYS takes the view that you may often want to take the last two sawed notes of the preceding measure, and slur them into the first note of the following measure (creating a 3-slur that crosses the bar-line).  And I think the fiddler in the link that the OP gave is doing a LOT of that ... in fact, I think that's a BIG part of the feel she's getting, that the OP likes.

If you take two measures of sawshuffle (with the bar lines included, and using a space to show the midpoint of the measure):

 | dudu uudu | dudu uudu |

Brad's modification is:

 | dudu uudd | dudu uudu | .

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/20/2012:  14:41:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

[...]

She also uses these pairs of long slurs of equal length that could be what I call

Smoothshuffle or a variant-

3-3-1-1. Brad Leftwich considers this a variant of Melvin's Lick since it's mathematically similar

---

Brad's variant of the dudu uudu sawshuffle is very similar to your dddu uudu smoothshuffle (in that they both contain a pair of adjacent 3-slurs, and two sawed notes), but it's not quite just a shifted version of smoothshuffle.

For all of the patterns that Brad introduces (including, even, the "all sawstrokes" pattern), he ALWAYS takes the view that you may often want to take the last two sawed notes of the preceding measure, and slur them into the first note of the following measure (creating a 3-slur that crosses the bar-line).  And I think the fiddler in the link that the OP gave is doing a LOT of that ... in fact, I think that's a BIG part of the feel she's getting, that the OP likes.

If you take two measures of sawshuffle (with the bar lines included, and using a space to show the midpoint of the measure):

 | dudu uudu | dudu uudu |

Brad's modification is:

 | dudu uudd | dudu uudu | .

 

---

Yes, I can see how that downstroke slur might be at work there.

However- clarification- "sawshuffle" isn't a "shifted" version of "smoothshuffle".... it's a MODIFIED version.

It's got the first downbow slur replaced with 3 sawstrokes- down up down.

I only consider something "shifted" if it's the same physical motions but moved over in relation to the beats.

Like the rhythm defined by the words "Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells" in the song "Jingle Bells"-- IF you were to bow out the rhythm, it's the same motions as Nashville Shuffle, but shifted over so you start on the sawstrokes rather than the slur.

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/20/2012:  15:06:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo



[...]

However- clarification- "sawshuffle" isn't a "shifted" version of "smoothshuffle".... it's a MODIFIED version.

It's got the first downbow slur replaced with 3 sawstrokes- down up down.

I only consider something "shifted" if it's the same physical motions but moved over in relation to the beats.

[...]

---

My explanation wasn't as clear as I thought it was.  Our usage of the term "shifted" is actually the same.  Was I was trying to say, is that I've always realized that your smoothshuffle, and Brad's 2nd variant of his "Melvin's lick", are very similar, although not identical.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I've previously posted that Brad's 2nd Melvin variant is just a shifted version of your smoothshuffle.  But this time, I realized that I had been wrong about that ... they ARE very similar, but they aren't exact shifted versions of each other.  Brad's first Melvin variant IS identical to your sawshuffle (which I know you already know).

The reason that Brad doesn't rename each of the two variants of each  of his patterns, is that he always gets the second variant from the first variant, by slurring the last two sawed notes into the first note of the following measure.  So he just sees the two variants (of each of his patterns) as two versions of the same pattern, and so he doesn't give them a separate name.

It's also worth repeating (for those who haven't seen this mentioned before) that 3-slurs have the very useful property that they can be substituted for ANY group of three sawed notes (no matter where in the measure those three sawed notes appear, or even when they are spread across a bar line), without changing the downstream bowing directions.  That makes them very flexible, and is probably one of the reasons that there are so many variants of 3-slurs in patterns.

oldtimer - Posted - 03/20/2012:  15:31:56

Changing from the old key of C to D is one reason that the tune has lost some of its appeal. The Texas Panhandle fiddlers I grew up with all played it and I have vivid memories of the tonalities of the unusual double-stops...some of which have become lost in the recent versions. I might make a little video to show what I mean.

BTW, no one has mentioned that "Chinese Breakdown" is almost identical to the "Looney Tunes" cartoon theme...and Chinese Breakdown came first!.

stay tooned....

Glenn Godsey

OTJunky - Posted - 03/20/2012:  16:07:47

I'm inclined to agree with Glenn about the key - but these things are always a matter of taste.

If you'd like to hear a fine version of it in C, the FHO video library has a video of Mark Campbell fiddling Ed Haley's version of it - posted by bj some time ago.

Just go to the "Video Library", put Chinese Breakdown in the "title" search box and two version will come up. Both of'em are pretty good though I've a preference for Campbell's - again just a matter of taste.

Mark Campbell is a fine fiddler and probably includes some of these key of C "tonalities" oldtimer mentions, though I suspect it was played a bit differently out in Oklahoma and Texas.

--OTJ

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/20/2012:  16:31:31

Okay, I got out my fiddle, turned on the video, learned the tune (not much to it really).

3-3-1-1 on the long notes, but after I had done it with mostly that, and listened again, I heard something else-

the ending phrase has a syncopation... and she's doing something different on that.

One thing that works for me is a shifted SAWSHUFFLE-

instead of 1-1-1-3-1-1,  make it 1-1-1-1-1-3, and the 3 is the last note before the final resolving D note.

Or it could be 1-2-2-3. (which I don't think I've ever used before, but it sounds like it could be a good raggy strategy- I'll have to work on it!

One of the reasons why I like bowing questions is that it gives me new ideas on the way to the answer!!!)

To me, the 3 note slur based syncopated bowings are what MAKES this version of the tune.  Otherwise, it's just a polka! And I'm not too fond of polkas

(My parents listened to Lawrence Welk too much for me not to overdose on them!!!).  And up to now, all the other versions I've heard have had a polka feel, which is probably why I haven't learned it yet.

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/20/2012:  16:32:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldtimer



[...]

---

Sure is nice to see your posts coming in again, Glenn.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/20/2012:  16:34:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldtimer

Changing from the old key of C to D is one reason that the tune has lost some of its appeal. The Texas Panhandle fiddlers I grew up with all played it and I have vivid memories of the tonalities of the unusual double-stops...some of which have become lost in the recent versions. I might make a little video to show what I mean.

BTW, no one has mentioned that "Chinese Breakdown" is almost identical to the "Looney Tunes" cartoon theme...and Chinese Breakdown came first!.

stay tooned....

Glenn Godsey

---

LOL!!!  You're right... thanks for bringing that up... after I'm done learning Chinese Breakdown, I need to learn the Looney Tunes theme and MEDLEY them... see if anybody in the audience picks up on it!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/20/2012:  16:37:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldtimer



[...]

---

Sure is nice to see your posts coming in again, Glenn.

 

---

I'll second that!!!

ironworker - Posted - 03/20/2012:  16:51:20

mark's interpretations of Mr. Haley's tunes are a constant source of inspiration in these parts.

Chinese Breakdown in a key other than C? MADNESS!!

learn it from multiple sources, then make it your own tune.

oldtimer - Posted - 03/20/2012:  16:52:12

Thanks, guys. I'm happy to be here (or anywhere at my age).

stay tooned....

Glenn Godsey

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 03/20/2012:  18:09:56

Groovy.

ironworker - Posted - 03/20/2012:  18:53:37

i like the Scotsdale ver., doug.

at the risk of annoying everyone, i'll once more (tonight) suggest a little research, for instance listening to period recordings, then seeing which of them you like, (and why) based on your own playing style, then work it up on your own the old fashioned way, by playing it till you are done.

i get it, when a tune grabs you and you want to learn it- happens to me all the time. i'm just happier when i actually do the work to see how the tune has evolved over a period of time, and then learn to play it .

Andah1andah2 - Posted - 03/20/2012:  19:39:45

Wow, I had a long day at work.  Just came home to find this thread had grown legs.  Thanks for all the comments.  I know I like this version and I like Melvin Wine, perhaps there is a connection.  I need some time to digest Pogo's breakdown (no pun intended) of the bowing patterns.  I get lost in the explanations.  I need to listen to your related tune.

BTW, yes Glenn, I have made the connection with this tune and the Merry go round broke down.  In fact, Dan Levenson discusses it here in his banjo version:

youtube.com/watch?v=7stjwPjk8s0

Glenn, I bet your wrist could do this tune some justice.  Love to hear it in any key.

Andah1andah2 - Posted - 03/20/2012:  19:47:15

And if I ever heard a tune that would make me want to break into some flat foot, this would be it.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/21/2012:  02:46:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by ironworker

i like the Scotsdale ver., doug.



at the risk of annoying everyone, i'll once more (tonight) suggest a little research, for instance listening to period recordings, then seeing which of them you like, (and why) based on your own playing style, then work it up on your own the old fashioned way, by playing it till you are done.



i get it, when a tune grabs you and you want to learn it- happens to me all the time. i'm just happier when i actually do the work to see how the tune has evolved over a period of time, and then learn to play it .

 

---

GREAT IDEA.... ironworker, since you thought of it, YOU get to post the links to the period recordings of Chinese Breakdown!!!

Seriously, I wasn't about to do any research, 'cause I thought I hated this tune....

when people would post "tunes you really hate" threads, I ALMOST posted Chinese Breakdown on a couple of them, cause like I said, up to now every version I had heard sounded like a polka until this one.

One time I think I even started to write the post, then erased it because I really don't like to be negative, and so often, when I don't like a tune, it's just that I haven't heard a good version or MY version yet.  This one was a long time coming, but I'm so glad it did-

IN FACT, there is something about this performance that is making me fall in love with Old Time music all over again... I'm bookmarking it!

I think it doesn't hurt them at all that (based on the names) the uke player is probably Elizabeth Fitch's hubby, and the guitar player is likewise probably married to the other fiddler.  Or brothers and sisters???  Well, whatever, having another musician of the same style in the family gives you an edge, cause you get more jamming/practice time in with another live musician.

DougD - Posted - 03/21/2012:  05:19:49

GREAT IDEA.... ironworker, since you thought of it, YOU get to post the links to the period recordings of Chinese Breakdown!!!

He doesn't have to - I included the link to the Scottdale String Band recording in my earlier post. I was wrong though - I think the first version I heard was this one by the Spooney Five, who called it "Chinese Rag"  amazon.com/gp/product/B007FH3Q...mp;sr=1-3

The version in the initial post has a rather sedate "groove" to my way of thinking of this tune.

OTJunky - Posted - 03/21/2012:  05:39:03

Doug,

That recording of "Hawkins Rag" - attributed to the Skillet Lickers has a mandolin lead.

I don't think I've heard a mandolin lead before on a Skillet Lickers recording - probably just another hole in my education. Any idea who played the mandolin in that band.

--paulm

DougD - Posted - 03/21/2012:  05:46:46

The mandolin player was Ted Hawkins. That's from a late recording session (1934 I think, and also their last IIRC). Riley is playing guitar, but I'm not sure who else is on those sides - maybe Gid's son Gordon Tanner too. "Down Yonder" b/w "Back Up and Push" from that session stayed in the catalog until the era of the 45 - I saw a copy in a store in Whitesburg once - should have bought it! There's more on this Document CD:  amazon.com/1934-6-Skillet-Lick..._1#disc_1 Some tracks were included on the Rounder Skillet Lickers LP too. 

PS - That session was for Victor (Bluebird) not Columbia. Here's the 45:  amazon.com/Down-Yonder-Back-An...p;sr=1-32

Edited by - DougD on 03/21/2012 05:55:09

Elizabeth Fitch - Posted - 03/21/2012:  18:40:58

Hell everyone,
A friend of mine spotted this thread and told me to take a look. That's me playing fiddle. I'm really flattered that you like the tune. :)

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/21/2012:  19:49:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

GREAT IDEA.... ironworker, since you thought of it, YOU get to post the links to the period recordings of Chinese Breakdown!!!

He doesn't have to - I included the link to the Scottdale String Band recording in my earlier post. I was wrong though - I think the first version I heard was this one by the Spooney Five, who called it "Chinese Rag"  amazon.com/gp/product/B007FH3Q...mp;sr=1-3

The version in the initial post has a rather sedate "groove" to my way of thinking of this tune.

---

Oh, I was kidding him, but I'm glad somebody did!

Sedate??? I'd rather say "old-fashioned".... it's a feel very similar to many string bands from the '20s.

To me, the groove they get is plenty danceable, but it's not so strong that it overwhelms a certain wistful, old-fashioned quality that to me is the emotional heart of Old Time music.  In fact, it's the fact that they manage to evoke this quality is what is making me fall in love with Old Time all over again.

"Festival Style" OT gets a very strong groove, but never gives me this emotional sense.  It's akin to listening to a a mournful Irish ballad, but the feel is distinctly American.

I remember getting a very similar feeling from hearing Tommy Jarrell and Fred Cockerham singing and playing "Big Eyed Rabbit" in the stock pens at Galax in about 1975.

And, no, it's certainly not as intense a groove as a certain string band from the '70's tended to get.... if I remember right, the bass player was  named Jenny, and the guitar player.... now what WAS his name????

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/21/2012:  19:58:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elizabeth Fitch

Hell everyone,

A friend of mine spotted this thread and told me to take a look. That's me playing fiddle. I'm really flattered that you like the tune. :)

---

Hi Elizabeth,

I THOUGHT you looked familiar in the video, and now I know why- I'd seen your picture here a couple of times!

Yes, great job on Chinese Breakdown... something magical happened on that one!

IF AND ONLY IF you care to do so... would you POSSIBLY be so kind as to talk about your bowing, as much or as little as you choose to reveal?

It could be about patterns- if you even think about 'em.

or it could be "who did you learn from?"

If you choose to say "Nope- top secret!" I'll be disappointed, but will understand!

Thanks for checking into the thread!!!

IdleHands - Posted - 03/22/2012:  09:43:29

Michael, please don't scare away the compny! ;^)

Andah1andah2 - Posted - 03/22/2012:  16:47:46

Hi Elizabeth,

I really enjoyed this tune also.  Your playing is wonderful, in particular your bowing.  I hope to have a "loose" wrist one day.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/23/2012:  05:45:57

Watching to see if Eli Fitch will respond to Pogo's question. I can't analyze bowing structure or patterns, but I've watched her Chinese Breakdown, which is really old timey. I might've heard John Morris play it in a similar way I guess it's been four years ago now in W Va...so I don't remember all that he played and my camcorder battery died before he was done playin. Anyway, like Pogo, I never cared at all for Chinese Breakdown until I heard it like this... Eli Fitch does a great job and plays it just right! But I'm wondering, suspecting not a pattern-like description, but how she would speak of the groove she gets in bowing...would love to hear it! And I really love her playing!

bj - Posted - 03/24/2012:  18:20:03

Most places I've heard this played it's AAB. The OP's linked vid is AABB. Just thought it might be good to point this out, since if you learn the AABB it might really screw you up if they play AAB in your area!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/25/2012:  05:58:43

I contined this discussion somewhat on the sound off forum on Pogo's latest post there: take it as an invitation, or a warning...lol...however ya see it!