aerobob427 - Posted - 03/07/2012:  08:25:25

I am a rank beginner, been practicing for about a month and just bought a Gliga Gems 1 Antiqued. The finish has several bumps and divots, I asked Gliga about this and the luthier says this is typical. The bumps are in the wood and to sand them down would compromise the integrity of the wood. Doesn't sound right to me, after all isn't that why violin tops are scraped and sanded? There are also scratches across the entire back - rounded scratches in the finish around the entire perimeter and long vertical scratches up and down the center. Is this typical in this price range, or are there better quality violins out there? I tried a Silver Creek first and it had cracks throughout the finish. I am starting to get the feeling I have to get up over $1,000 to see violins of actual quality. My local store has an Eastman Strings 300 that looks gorgeous. But I sure like the sound of the Gliga!

Any help appreciated, I am brand new at this and have no idea.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/07/2012:  08:28:20

PS - there is also one streak of excess stain along the left f-hole. This and the scratches simply cannot be "in the wood," so I wonder if this is just typical for an "advanced/beginner" violin.

MikeyBoy - Posted - 03/07/2012:  08:47:31

If you like how it sounds, that is the most important thing.  Hard to tell without pics, but sounds like the scratches are cosmetic (from being handled poorly perhaps?).  I wouldn't say it's typical of new fiddles in that price range, but especially since it's been "antiqued"  it may be intentional on the manufacturer's part - again hard to tell without pics. I would have been more concerned about the cracks in the finish of the Silver Creek - to my untrained minds eye, that suggests more of a problem with workmanship and/or materials.  As to being only able find a "quality" violin for $1000+ - not true.  I have played fiddles that cost that much or more that I would not trade for my Jackson-Guldan (which I could sell for maybe $300-$400 at most).  Do some searches through the forums here, there are many testimonials of players - beginners and experienced fiddlers alike - who are perfectly happy with their under-$500 fiddle. 

Good luck!

richdissmore - Posted - 03/07/2012:  08:52:35

i think you should try Kennedy violins or Elderly vintage fiddles you will find some thing that will be rigth for you

SamY - Posted - 03/07/2012:  10:07:42

Special finishing (antiquing) to make a violin look "old" or "used" is very common at all price ranges. Different brands will use different techniques. I haven't seen any that intentionally put the kind of scratches you are describing, but it's possible. I know that many will put dents (distressing) in the surface of the wood. This is done AFTER sanding to get rid of the smooth surface. Many buyers apparently want this. I like it so long as it's not too much, that way if I accidentally put in a new dent it doesn't show up, just blends with all the others. I recently examined a Jay Haide priced at $2350 that was HEAVILY distressed, way overdone for my taste. My Scott Cao 017 is lightly done, just right, but it's a $400 violin. I wouldn't mind trading it for the Jay Haide!

If you like the sound of your Gliga, I would say just enjoy it.

stew692 - Posted - 03/07/2012:  10:29:26

If you are in Conshohocken, then try Mt. Airy Violins on Germantown Avenue. Samuel can help you out.

Kathy

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/07/2012:  10:36:30

aero -- I have a distinct feeling that you got what your ordered -- an antiqued violin.  Maybe a little too enthusiastically antiqued for you, but antiqued just the same.  Of my three fiddles, two are antiqued, including the expensive one.  Pictures of the expensive one are in my gallery.  Note the distinctively crooked grain, too.  Bottom line, if the violin's looks offend you, get another.  But if it sounds good and fits well under your fingers, you might have gotten yourself a happy mutt companion.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/07/2012:  10:50:25

Wow thanks for all the help! Gliga tells me the scratches are not done intentionally for the antique finish, to which I am surprised. Sure looks like some effort was made to scratch it up. They are going to check stock for a Gems 1 that has as few cosmetic flaws as possible and send me pictures. So far they're dealing with this pretty well. I'll see what happens with that, but yes, the finish does offend me and this particular one will not do, not for $450. I see a Sherl and Roth for $300 at the local store that has no finish defects on the top or back. Although, there is an Eastman Strings 100 for $698 that has one stain drop on the top and two other blemishes in the finish. So a "perfect" violin to my scrutiny may not be reasonable. But not dripped, scratched, and stain-streaked like this! I've attached a couple of photos for the curious! (Hope I did that right.)

brya31 - Posted - 03/07/2012:  16:21:03

The scratches and dents turned it from a violin into a fiddle.  

mswlogo - Posted - 03/07/2012:  18:27:06

It's a lot harder to find fiddle that sounds good than looks good. It probably should not be "scratched" even if it's antiqued though.

Bumps might be possible, some companies do wacky stuff to make them look old. Sounds a little odd though. I tend not to like "fake antique" on anything, including fiddles.

Ask them to send you another, and if it looks cleaner and sounds as good return the other. if looks similar then you'll know your ok and can sleep better and return the second one.

Eastmans are pretty nice too.

Don't give up the one you have until you find one that sounds as good or better.

Also you could bring it to a teach or professional and let them assess it.

Edited by - mswlogo on 03/07/2012 18:28:34

Sevensisters - Posted - 03/07/2012:  19:48:32

I have a Gliga Stradivari student model with the oil finish, there are no bumps dents or scratching.  In looking at the photos of the antiqued violins on violinslover.com  I can see where the stain is applied to look "worn" in areas but I don't see the dents and bumps or scratches.  

Diane G - Posted - 03/07/2012:  20:49:46

Here's the thing about these violins. BEWARE: The Gliga company WILL NOT honor the warrantee on their instrument if it has been touched by an outside luthier or music technician. Diane in SoCal

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/07/2012:  22:34:17

I think maybe you're being a bit unreasonable. In the $400 price range, you've stepped up from super thick lacquer finishes, and the scrolls and pegboxes may be done with a little more care than the $100 eBay specials that come in blue, green and purple, but you're still talking about something that is essentially slapped together by workmen, NOT craftsmen! People are working at a fast pace on instruments at that price level, and corners WILL be cut. Applying varnish, in particular is something BEST to be done carefully and slowly by someone who knows how.

"Carefully and slowly by someone who knows how" = more hours invested by more highly paid labor = EXPENSIVE.



Think about it. If someone walks in off the street, and gets a job in China or Romania in a violin factory, they are going to put the noob on the $100 kid-fiddles, or whatever their bottom of the line is. $450 is just not that far above the bottom rung.

Most of my fiddles have been in the $400 to $450 price bracket (at least when they were new) Plenty of drips and flaws in the finishes.

The particular model I have and like best has been called "the high end of student rental fiddles"!!!

In that price range, if they sound good and play well, I think you got a deal.

If you keep on playing, you could use it as a trade in, or keep it as a "beater".

I know a concertmaster (#1 violinist in an orchestra) who tried my $400 Knilling and nodded approvingly at it's sound- for a BEATER fiddle- the one he had with him was quite comparable to mine- he only takes his high priced violin to orchestra gigs!!! For mariachi gigs and Civil War reenactments, he takes the beater.

The reality is, if you progress.... where are you most likely going to be playing??? AT JAMS!!! And there are people pushing into the circle with guitar necks and banjo necks sticking out a couple of feet, with metal knobs sticking of the headstock, and you're lucky if that banjo or guitar headstock doesn't suddenly try to occupy the same physical space being occupied by your fiddle!!! Frankly, a $400 fiddle is about all I'd want to take into a crowded cafe, living room, or pub jam. And then there are FESTIVALS.... do you really want to take your multithousand dollar violin investment to a CAMPGROUND???? Also keep in mind that many people at music events are in altered states of consciousness due to too many caffeinated drinks ... or various other legal and illegal substances.

Once while I was hosting a jam at a cafe, only TWO other musicians showed, up, BOTH guitarists, and they were BOTH "sloshed" on arrival!

As usual, I'm belaboring the point, beating the proverbial dead horse, etc. In summary, consider the risk factors in the likely places it's actually going to be played.



A few years back, I went up to a neighboring city to a REAL violin maker to have my lowly fiddles' soundposts adjusted and to see if he thought they had any other issues. Well, I tried some bows, and he let me try a bow on one of his $18,000 hand crafted violins. Same color (orange), same shape, but oh what a difference in the sound (HUGE!) and the DETAIL!!! Made mine look like a toy! Kind of like going from a Ford Pinto to a Mercedes Benz....

And now, due to the economy tanking, you can get them for a MERE $15,000!!! And that actually IS about half the price many big city luthiers would charge.



FWIW, I've noticed a big jump in sound and some in the detail in instruments in the $700 range... in particular Scott Cao violins in that range, and also a Yamaha violin I tried today. Reading product descriptions, it's in that price range you starting seeing mentions of "graduated" tops.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 03/07/2012 22:36:41

bj - Posted - 03/08/2012:  06:39:56

Why do I have the feeling you will get an instrument you like the looks of only to find you prefer the sound of the one you gave up?

Sound is EVERYTHING. (and actually that's why I prefer older fiddles, many of which can be bought for the same or less than mass produced new fiddles.)

OldNSlow - Posted - 03/08/2012:  07:03:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by bj

Why do I have the feeling you will get an instrument you like the looks of only to find you prefer the sound of the one you gave up?

Sound is EVERYTHING. (and actually that's why I prefer older fiddles, many of which can be bought for the same or less than mass produced new fiddles.)

---

Maybe fiddles should be purchased while blindfolded.  After all, what you are after is the sound, not the looks (provided it is in one piece).  Pogo is correct about price.  Below 4-500 bucks, you will get something more appropriate for a bat than a fiddle, and the price goes vertical right after that.  Go for the best sound that you can afford.  Very few people admire you for how nice your fiddle looks, as opposed to how you play.  Fiddles with dings and scrapes seem to abound in old time music, and somehow they always manage to sound good.

DeamhanFola - Posted - 03/08/2012:  10:32:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by richdissmore

i think you should try Kennedy violins or Elderly vintage fiddles you will find some thing that will be rigth for you

---

I definitely agree with this. If your Gliga isn't satisfying you, there are tons of old fiddles out there under $1K that sound great and have good workmanship. It's probably tougher to get a good new fiddle for a beginner's budget than it is to get one of the old ones. Plus the old ones can have 50-100 years of playing in/ aging time and thus can sound better than a new one whose wood hasn't aged. Just be sure that the old fiddle is checked out by a luthier: places like Elderly do this before they're put up for sale.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/08/2012:  10:39:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by bj

Why do I have the feeling you will get an instrument you like the looks of only to find you prefer the sound of the one you gave up?

Sound is EVERYTHING. (and actually that's why I prefer older fiddles, many of which can be bought for the same or less than mass produced new fiddles.)

---

First sentence: +1... as usual, you managed to distill into FAR FEWER words what I was feeling in my gut!

Second sentence;  Qualified +1.  From looking at his home page, he may be as likely to wanna play violin along with Beatles songs than to play in an Old Time jam.  So WHICH sound.... I don't think he knows yet, and he'll really need to learn to play first before he can really KNOW which sound he's aiming for.

Phrase in parentheses.  True in one sense.  There are some great sounding old fiddles out there.  But there are also a lot of severely ailing old fiddles out there.  How to tell the difference?  It's not rocket science, but there's a lot to learn, and if you can't play, how can you tell if it's playable.  The only way of being SURE you got a playable one is to buy one from a reputable shop, and they've got to get out of that violin the labor and parts they put into it to bring it up to snuff, AND make a profit.

And you also have these good sounding odd duck fiddles:  Homemade ones with no purfling, and little resale value- some with really narrow fingerboards, OldnSlow just bought a nice sounding old fiddle with a short neck.

So a $400 something beginner instrument is a good option for getting the ball rolling quickly, IMO.

Or maybe the same instrument that's only had one owner and little use is a good option if no problems have developed.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/08/2012:  10:46:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sevensisters

I have a Gliga Stradivari student model with the oil finish, there are no bumps dents or scratching.  In looking at the photos of the antiqued violins on violinslover.com  I can see where the stain is applied to look "worn" in areas but I don't see the dents and bumps or scratches.  

---

You know... something just occurred to me... in the Fender guitar factory they would sometimes take a body that had already been painted one color, and repaint over it... can't remember what the reason was, but it might have been something wrong with the first attempt, or maybe they just needed another color to fill an order.

Okay, here's an ever-so-slightly-educated guess... you don't suppose that in the Gliga factory on the lower end lines, they've got finishes that look really nice, and some that have drips and bumps.... which ones are they going to leave plain, and which ones are they going to "antique" in the hope that it will cover something up???  This is just a guess, but I'm guessing it's the ones with more flaws that are going to get "antiqued"... it makes good camoflage.

boxbow - Posted - 03/09/2012:  07:40:11

What you need, aerobob, is playing time.  For me, that was measured in years.  If it takes a near-perfect finish to keep you playing through the awful early stages of fiddling, then insist on a near-perfect finish.  As for me, my pickup trucks have all been more dent than shine, and my fiddles, too.  As bj said ever so succinctly, sound is everything.  OK, so fiddlepogo has made some telling points concerning smell, but we'll leave that aside for now.  The advice that would have been most helpful to me in the beginning would have been to find a fiddle that was easy to get sound out of, and a bow (THIS IS VITAL!!) that makes it easy to do.  This means handling a lot of fiddles and bows.  Do your hunting with another fiddler of greater skill, if possible.  Meantime, play whatever the hell you can git yer mitts on, because the best fiddle in the universe is gonna sound like c**p for a while in your hands.  That's just how it is.  Consider renting a student fiddle until you find the one you want to run away to Tahiti with.  By the way, my two fiddles together aren't worth the powder to blow them to hell, yet I find myself strangely bonded to them, and I will cause great bodily harm to anyone who threatens them in any way.  My Chinese fiddle is easy to get sound out of, but is a little annoying.  It's looks are unremarkable.  My German fiddle is kinda pretty in a manly sort of way, but it takes everything I've got and a bit more to get good sound. I wouldn't even know it was hard to get sound out of unless I had the Chinese to compare it to.

Perfection is elusive.  Play lots.  Polish no more than you absolutely feel compelled to.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/09/2012:  09:56:50

Wow these are all great responses and a lot of good information for a beginner. Maybe this thread should be bound and sold as a pamphlet for virtuoso wannabes like me! I think I should elaborate a bit on my background, I've been playing guitar for over 40 years and recently decided to give violin a try, and this is my second attempt. The first one ended when I realized the neighbors were doing an all-out search for whoever was strangling chickens in the basement. That was about 10 years ago when my daughter handed me her old student violin and left behind an 1890-era German violin. Now the bug has bitten again and I am much more determined this time. In fact, I am halfway through the beginner book and can actually play tunes! Of course, my wife prefers it if I can practice when she's out. She as well does not like the sound of fowl shrieking out its last breath.



My tastes - it looks like I neglected to mention that I have always loved classical music - anything Tsaikovsky or Mahler will do, but my favorite is Rimsky. Although, yes I'm quite sure at some point I will try to play along with "Yesterday."



So I have 1) my "student" violin, a 1986 Scherl & Roth that's ok at best. I just replaced the fingerboard and that was a successful project. 2) The old German which I affectionately call "Klaus." 3) A post-WW2 "Czecho Slovakian" that I picked up on eBay a couple of weeks ago as an experiment and an opportunity to restore, while learning about the mechanics of the instrument. I was able to clean up years of crud and actually bring back a shine, cut a new bridge, replace strings (I put Helicores on it), and put a finetuner on the E string. Also polished and buffed the tailpiece, which was slated for replacement, but it cleaned up like new so I left the original on. I failed miserably at fitting new pegs (sans the proper equipment) so it is out to the shop for that. I think I'm going to enjoy that violin when it comes back next week. Nice aged wood, not quite as dark as Klaus but then again, Klaus can be too dark at times. Klaus is probably best fit for the dark Tsaikovsky compositions, once I get there, and big boomy symphonies like The Planets. Look out, Bringer of War, here comes Klaus! But I'd also like something in the middle of the bright S&R and Klaus. The Czech sounds just right.



4) Now, my Gliga, which replaced the bobo Silver Creek with the cracked finish. There was also a void in the stain on the Silver Creek right above the right f-hole, so that was an eyesore. I am discovering that I am tough when scrutinizing a violin that is sold as, and should look like new. My assessment of the Gliga Gems 1 turns out to be no exception. After considering all the advice I got here (and once again THANK YOU ALL, it's great to get some help so quickly!) I decided to return to my local shop and take another look at the Eastman Strings 100 and 300-line models there. And voila! They too have the same type of finish defects I see on my Gliga. I just hadn't looked with as much scrutiny. And I also like the tone of the Gliga better - it's fuller and deeper while still maintaining nice overtones so it sounds clear. Too my rookie ear the Gliga has more frequency response, a wider range of tones although not screechy like your typical student violin with steel strings and not so dark as to inspire thoughts of jumping off a bridge.



So I broke out a little violin polish and (very tentatively and carefully) chose a test spot on the Gems 1 and went for it. That went well so I continued. The deepest scratches are now a shadow of their former selves and only noticeable if you know where to look. (They look, with the light at just the right angle so you can see them at all, just like the teeny tiny faint finish streaks on the backs of both Eastmans) The big long light ones that covered the back are gone altogether! It seems I finished the job Gliga had left half done. So "MY" violin (whew! FINALLY!) now looks as good as the Eastmans I see at higher price, and as a bonus, sounds better to me. And I have achieved my objective of buying a European-made violin with Carpathian wood.



All this after Gliga agreed to a return for refund and I was actually packing it up. I got this sinking feeling that I really did not want to part with it so that's when I decided to try working on the scratches. The other little funnies here and there are no worse than what I see on much higher-priced instruments. The violin I really want is the Eastman 305. If I actually keep to this, that's in the cards down the road a bit. But for now, I wanted ONE new, nice looking (and a couple of you reminded me that this is important to me) and nice sounding violin to call my primary instrument, on which I will learn. To those of you who reminded me that SOUND is the thing, well that's why the sinking feeling at the thought of parting with this. And that's why this all worked out. I am in love with the sound of this Gliga! And that will keep me wanting to play.



OK, enough out of me! That's it, that's all, the Gliga is in and I am looking forward to that chicken giving up the ghost once and for all. I am close! Wish me luck, and again, thank you so much for your experiences, observations, and empathy to my situation.



Bob

Edited by - aerobob427 on 03/09/2012 10:03:29

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/09/2012:  10:58:04

You sound a lot like me.  I want to be able to play everything, from the earthiest mountain music to the lightest, airiest Mozart and everything in between.  I had 30+ years on the guitar and other instruments before I took up the fiddle, and I'm honestly frustrated by the fact that the instrument is so difficult to play.  Now, about 12 years on from first picking up the fiddle, I'm finally beginning to be able to express myself on the instrument...but I'm still not quite ready to air my Gypsy, Tango and Jazz ramblings in public.  I'm getting comfortable with vibrato, and with playing up the neck.

Anyway, I found that the best way to really knuckle down and concentrate on the playing and not the hardware is to (if you can afford it, of course) buy an instrument that costs twice as much as your conscience allows.  The guilt generated from the purchase will keep the fiddle under your chin.  You will also know unequivocally that it's not the fiddle that's to blame but that it is you that is to blame for all those dying chickens.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/09/2012:  11:37:06

Oh I take full responsibility for that anyway! Well you hit it on the head, I too play bass, drums, and a little keyboard as well, and used to play trumpet as a kid (fist trumpet in my junior high). But the violin is different altogether. I look at and listen to great violinists and am amazed at how they get vibrato. I have tried it but find my left hand is busy holding the violin still, but I'm sure in time my chin will take care of that and free up my left hand to be more expressive. It is all quite physical - posture, grip and bowing technique plus all the usual manipulation. This is why I enjoy the challenge. Whenever I have played a song and it sounds like music, I feel I have accomplished something. Imagine the 14-15th century musician trying to cope with crude instruments and still managing all of this enough to make music in the king's court! It takes a lot of patience and determination.

I think a good bow is essential in getting tone, mine bounces a bit as opposed to the better ones in the shop. I'll soon be looking for a better bow.

giannaviolins - Posted - 03/10/2012:  03:08:16

I really don't see these issues on violins as being "defects" in the common usage of this particular trade.  Violins are complex to finish and they generally are not new-car perfect. Not that new cars are perfect!  

On bows, a good bow indeed makes a difference.  I had a fellow come in the other day, owned a Coda NX bow.  I had gone through his rather nice Horner violin, just a setup and stage 1 adjustment.  Filled the gap along the edges of the fingerboard, got the neck shape better, planed the fingerboard to rid it of a big hump, and cut a decent bridge and post.  The usual setup work.  Really good fiddle.  The adjustment went well.  I think it may have been the best Horner I've had through the shop.  Regardless, even not being a highly skilled fiddler, the owner could tell the clear difference among the different grades of wood bows and went home with a nice silver-mounted Arcos bow.  This is typical.

Do try a range of bows, if possible, or have a range sent to you!  Well worth the effort.  If you have a skilled fiddler to help select one, that would be good.  Or actually, given your classical bent, a skilled classical player.

bullrambler - Posted - 03/10/2012:  09:18:13

Greetings all...! I also played guitar for over 30 years before I went to the fiddle. As a glitch, I started playing guitar right handed and decided to play fiddle left handed. I'm glad I did, and it feels quite natural to me, as I'm left handed. Everybody knows that as a general rule, left hand fiddles are harder to come by. Anyways, I started with a student level fiddle Strunal Model 260, played it for two years and felt it was time to move up a notch. I explored the hand-made segment here, and I owe some words of thanks to Steve at giannaviolins for his patience and comments, which clarified some important factors about fiddles. But, I didn't feel I could justify the cost of a hand-crafted fiddle, so I moved up a level form my Strunal 260 to a Gliga Gamma model. It was a good step for me, and I've noticed how the Gliga Gamma has much better sound then my student level instrument. Of course my playing has improved from my starting point just over two years ago to now.

As mentioned by Lonesome Fiddler above, it takes time, patience and a lot of practice to learn how to play the fiddle. So if your Gliga gems sounds good to you, keep it and learn as much as you can from that instrument. Play every day, but take a break from it, when you need too. Then, in time, move up to a higher quality instrument, when it's more feasible to do so.

As far as doing the "tune-up" on a fiddle, I think it better to leave that to someone who is trained and can adjust the nuances as they best know how. All for the owners benefit of course. I'm not suggesting that it's impossible to do, but it could be tricky for a beginner that kind of work on an instrument. Keep playing and have fun... I think I'm more or less ready to post something up on the music threads. ..!

justme - Posted - 03/14/2012:  02:04:12

not too familiar with Gliga, although all i have heard they make well made, mellow sounding violins. Can you get one that isn't antiqued?

giannaviolins - Posted - 03/14/2012:  03:51:30

Gliga are available straight finish.  They also provide instruments "in the white" to spec for numerous folks, so they're in all kinds of trim.

forestabri - Posted - 03/14/2012:  09:26:50

I have a Gliga, a "Gama Guanerius" model, antiqued. I would have sent it back if I knew then what I know now. It isn't that it is bad, it's ok, its just that it isn't worth the money I spent. If it had a good set-up, my opinion might change. Their sales method reminds me of Carvin guitars, base price looks great, but to get something you can live with gets pricey. The "extras" drive the price up. For a better case, fine tuner bridge and better strings, tax and shipping, it cost a lot more by the time it was at my door. Over $950! Add to that the cost of a set-up with a nicer bridge and it adds up to lot of money for an average student fiddle, IMO. It was supposedly set up, but not much time spent on it, I think.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/14/2012:  19:46:26

In that price range, I think the Eastman 305 or 315 would be competitive, but in that case you get "Asian" wood, and they don't say from where. Word on the street is that only Northern China can grow decent wood (NOT southern Chinese wood, which actually loses tone over the years rather than maturing into richer tone). Eastman dosn't say exactly where the wood is from, so you take your chances. One of the main reasons I went with Gliga is they tell you exactly where the wood is grown and you can rest assured your violin is going to improve with age. I think that tilts the scale despite the fact that Eastman does a little better job on cosmetics.

I did a side-by-side with the Gliga Gems 1 vs. both the Eastman 100 series and 300 series. The Gems 1 sounded as good as the Eastman 305 and far better than the 100 series. In fact, the 100 was put down rather quickly as it was no contest against the Gliga. And the price was higher too! Imagine if over the years the Gliga richens up even more and the Eastman 100 loses what little tone it had. IMVHO you'll have something of value for a long time in the Gama and won't have to wonder if the tone is a "limited-time offer" like some Chinese violins.

giannaviolins - Posted - 03/15/2012:  02:56:54

The Eastman VL315 uses European wood, rather plain, carved and varnished exactly like the VL305.  

I don't know about "word on the street."  I also don't know how most folks selling instruments or importing instruments to here would know where particular wood came from.  That's an interesting question.  There seems to be a substantia amount of nonsense presented as fact in the trade.  Generally in the form of "mine is better because X and his isn't because Y."  Sometimes concerning the same thing, just different labels.

There's no reason to think that European wood will improve more than wood from elsewhere, at least not that I'm aware of.  Seems a myth to me.  Violins improve with age to some extent, these cheap trade violins less so.  

As to instruments "sounding as good" as other instruments - I often hear this stated and frequently disagree greatly.  Usually relatively inexperienced testers make this claim.  There's no objective criteria in there.  A key factor is that relatively inexperienced players and sometimes people with certain styles want a fat, warm, rich sound (in their words), while more advanced players and people with different tastes want a focused, brilliant instrument.  I find that frequently (all too frequently) a step up player gets a warm, rich, mellow instrument (that I recommended against), but returns a couple of years later wondering why their instrument is now sluggish, muddy, and generally unsatisfactory.  Sometimes the instrument just needs a tuneup (post loose or something), but often the instrument has actually improved.  The player has changed.  

In comparisons, one also needs to take into account that the setup may not be equivalent, the adjustments are unlikely to be equivalent, different individual violins have different characteristics, players have different skill sets and demands, and the player isn't in the best position to hear the instruments.  

Tone isn't, in my experience, a "limited time" thing with any violin.  The VL100 violins have, in my shop, performed exceptionally well for the most part, but take a good deal of setup over and above the stock.  The Gliga line has also performed well enough, but it's more difficult to get fast response and brilliance.

I can't see much reason to distinguish the Gliga and Eastman lines at the low end.  At the top end, the Eastman lines leave the Gliga instruments in the dust.

Much reduction in potential for both lines lie in the finishes and detailing.

Gligas often suffer from very clubby necks, thick fingerboards, finish that seems to deaden the sound ("rich & warm"), marginal fittings (heavy tailpiece is especially annoying), and terrible setup (by my standards).  Tend to have a warmish but sluggish tone and a bit of a lag in setting off.

Eastman VL100 to 300 tend to have slightly thick neck, too thick fingerboard, finish that's nice but coated with lacquer, better fittings, better stock setup.

I have had both the VL100 and Gliga lines in the white (can't get the VL100 in the white any more) and have graduated and varnished them in my shop.  The performance then is absolutely equivalent, but I favored the Gliga a bit.  On the other hand, that took hogging more wood out!

One can play the Gliga line in many other isotopes.  JR Euro, etc - many trade lines have Gliga products with importer labels.  

I don't mean to be too critical, but please do watch jumping to conclusions based on marketing hype and nonsense promoted on the web.  I suggest relying on hands on examination once one has a decade of experience in the trade.  That gives one a bit of tooth.  

Something else to consider is that these are very low end trade instruments that are being played by those who play low end trade instruments.  Tastes will differ and there's really nothing in those lines that will appeal to really advanced players, for the most part.  Nice instruments, all.  I like them, but there are many better out there!

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  07:49:06

I don’t think I need to play for years before I can recognize nice sound. I have spent countless hours listening to violin music over the last 30 years and I know what quality violins sound like. That being said, I was going for an upgrade to my Scherl and Roth Model 30 without spending a grand. I also wanted to avoid Chinese wood. Look at the difference in the marketing materials for the Eastman 401: Crafted in Romania from select Carpathian tonewoods vs. the 305: Entirely hand-crafted from select tonewoods. No mention of Europe at all. I saw a chart (forget where) that stated the 100 and 305 were made from “Asian wood,” which is consistent with the above. Several people in threads here and elsewhere commented on the substandard quality of Southern Chinese wood and prefer European. I did find one supplier who states the Eastman 315 top is made from “Alpine Spruce,” and it is over $1,000 while with the Gems 1 you get Carpathian wood for under $500. I think the finish on the Eastman is a little nicer but the sound quality of the Gliga wins out.

But you’re right, my tastes may change over the years. However, if I don’t like my instrument, I will not pick it up. If I had bought the Eastman 100, I’d probably lose interest in violin altogether. I didn’t like it in the shop, it was shallow and tinny, end of story. If there is a certain tone quality typically preferred by beginners, as you put it warm and fat, then certainly an instrument that can deliver that is of choice. My 40s-era Czechoslovakian violin has the big and bright sound you describe as one preferred by those with more experience. Maybe later I’ll be ready for that. For now, I need the warm, sweet and full-bodied tone I get from the Gliga. It sounds a lot closer to the violins I hear in classical recordings done by world famous orchestras rather than that strangled chicken I mentioned earlier. At times, even I sound like a violinist, and that’s the inspiration and encouragement I need.



Setup is a science and an art. I’m sure it would take a bit of time and effort to set up two or more violins to our exact tastes, but that is not practical, pre-sale, in the low end. I suppose this could be done once we are ready (and few of us ever are) to spend several thousand on a violin. I can easily understand a concert violinist going to this length. However I rely on the manufacturer and retailer to have an instrument that appeals to me as it is sold. That's the one I am going to buy. Additionally, if setup were the end-all, concert violinists would all be playing Cremona SV-65’s set up for their specifications. There is more to a violin than setup, even in the low end. We cannot discount quality wood and construction.



Mine is in fact “better than X” because it gives me what I want. Of course we all think ours is better, that’s why we buy them! They are most suitable to our needs and preferences as well as budgets. Yes, my Gliga Gems 1 is better than the Eastman 100 in my local shop. I know, I heard them side by side, same bow, same player, but a world of difference in the sound. If there is a better 100 out there with a better setup, great. But even at that considering what I heard I have no expectation that another one would be so much better than this example that it would sound as good as my Gliga. Like I said, no comparison, not even close. In terms of the "nonsense" that is out there, if you're careful you can get hard specifications on the instruments you are considering, and you can tell a lot by the sound. I am a thorough shopper, I took my time, bugged my local dealer until he offered to have my mail sent to the shop, and I am quite comfortable in saying the Romanian-made Gems 1 with Carpathian wood is a better sounding violin than the Eastman 100, and on par with the 305, with its Chinese wood, at twice the price. I am happy with my purchase.

mudbug - Posted - 03/15/2012:  10:40:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by giannaviolins

The Eastman VL315 uses European wood, rather plain, carved and varnished exactly like the VL305.  

I don't know about "word on the street."  I also don't know how most folks selling instruments or importing instruments to here would know where particular wood came from.  That's an interesting question.  There seems to be a substantia amount of nonsense presented as fact in the trade.  Generally in the form of "mine is better because X and his isn't because Y."  Sometimes concerning the same thing, just different labels.

There's no reason to think that European wood will improve more than wood from elsewhere, at least not that I'm aware of.  Seems a myth to me.  Violins improve with age to some extent, these cheap trade violins less so.  

As to instruments "sounding as good" as other instruments - I often hear this stated and frequently disagree greatly.  Usually relatively inexperienced testers make this claim.  There's no objective criteria in there.  A key factor is that relatively inexperienced players and sometimes people with certain styles want a fat, warm, rich sound (in their words), while more advanced players and people with different tastes want a focused, brilliant instrument.  I find that frequently (all too frequently) a step up player gets a warm, rich, mellow instrument (that I recommended against), but returns a couple of years later wondering why their instrument is now sluggish, muddy, and generally unsatisfactory.  Sometimes the instrument just needs a tuneup (post loose or something), but often the instrument has actually improved.  The player has changed.  

In comparisons, one also needs to take into account that the setup may not be equivalent, the adjustments are unlikely to be equivalent, different individual violins have different characteristics, players have different skill sets and demands, and the player isn't in the best position to hear the instruments.  

Tone isn't, in my experience, a "limited time" thing with any violin.  The VL100 violins have, in my shop, performed exceptionally well for the most part, but take a good deal of setup over and above the stock.  The Gliga line has also performed well enough, but it's more difficult to get fast response and brilliance.

I can't see much reason to distinguish the Gliga and Eastman lines at the low end.  At the top end, the Eastman lines leave the Gliga instruments in the dust.

Much reduction in potential for both lines lie in the finishes and detailing.

Gligas often suffer from very clubby necks, thick fingerboards, finish that seems to deaden the sound ("rich & warm"), marginal fittings (heavy tailpiece is especially annoying), and terrible setup (by my standards).  Tend to have a warmish but sluggish tone and a bit of a lag in setting off.

Eastman VL100 to 300 tend to have slightly thick neck, too thick fingerboard, finish that's nice but coated with lacquer, better fittings, better stock setup.

I have had both the VL100 and Gliga lines in the white (can't get the VL100 in the white any more) and have graduated and varnished them in my shop.  The performance then is absolutely equivalent, but I favored the Gliga a bit.  On the other hand, that took hogging more wood out!

One can play the Gliga line in many other isotopes.  JR Euro, etc - many trade lines have Gliga products with importer labels.  

I don't mean to be too critical, but please do watch jumping to conclusions based on marketing hype and nonsense promoted on the web.  I suggest relying on hands on examination once one has a decade of experience in the trade.  That gives one a bit of tooth.  

Something else to consider is that these are very low end trade instruments that are being played by those who play low end trade instruments.  Tastes will differ and there's really nothing in those lines that will appeal to really advanced players, for the most part.  Nice instruments, all.  I like them, but there are many better out there!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

---

 Nice info,  as always.  I know you deal with a lot of instruments,  in varying levels of quality,  as well as musicians,  also varying.  Your observations are appreciated.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  10:48:06

I agree. I can use all the input I get get, just want to make sure I've described what I've observed thoroughly. I hadn't done that in the beginning.

KCFiddles - Posted - 03/15/2012:  11:05:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by aerobob427

I don’t think I need to play for years before I can recognize nice sound. I have spent countless hours listening to violin music over the last 30 years and I know what quality violins sound like. [/quote]

Unless you've played quality violins with a high level of skill, you know what quality players sound like, not necessarily violins. Chances are the players would sound the same to an untrained ear, pretty much regardless of what instrument they were playing.  That lesson has been driven home to me time and time again in the shop. Good players sound like themselves, regardless of what they are playing on.  On top of that, many good professional players play surprisingly modest instruments, especially as backups.  Audiences usually can't tell the difference.

That being said, I was going for an upgrade to my Scherl and Roth Model 30 without spending a grand. I also wanted to avoid Chinese wood. Look at the difference in the marketing materials for the Eastman 401: Crafted in Romania from select Carpathian tonewoods vs. the 305: Entirely hand-crafted from select tonewoods. No mention of Europe at all. I saw a chart (forget where) that stated the 100 and 305 were made from “Asian wood,” which is consistent with the above. Several people in threads here and elsewhere commented on the substandard quality of Southern Chinese wood and prefer European. I did find one supplier who states the Eastman 315 top is made from “Alpine Spruce,” and it is over $1,000 while with the Gems 1 you get Carpathian wood for under $500. I think the finish on the Eastman is a little nicer but the sound quality of the Gliga wins out.

What Southern Chinese wood?  Where do spruce and maple grow in Southern China? As far as I know, Southern Chinese forests are primarily lowland rain forests and monsoon forests.  Mixed coniferous forests grow in inner Mongolia and in the Northeast.  Wood is also procured from Siberia and the Himalayas, environments that are pretty good for producing tonewoods.

At the price level you are talking about, the making of the instrument and the setup have about 100 times more influence on sound than does the selection of the wood (as long as the wood is decent), and none of the lower priced instruments get any attention paid to tonal adjustment, before they leave China.  They are made "to the numbers" with varying degrees of precision, and that's about it. Setups are cursory at best.  I'm speaking from the standpoint of one whose colleagues spend a significant portion of the year in China, working with our suppliers on maintaining and improving quality.

I can quote a number of top makers who don't set a lot of store by any special wood, as long as it's decent tone wood.  For that matter, you can find a lot of "golden era" Cremonese violins that look like they were made from old fence posts. People who talk about "special wood" in low end violins are just blowing smoke.

But you’re right, my tastes may change over the years. However, if I don’t like my instrument, I will not pick it up. If I had bought the Eastman 100, I’d probably lose interest in violin altogether. I didn’t like it in the shop, it was shallow and tinny, end of story. If there is a certain tone quality typically preferred by beginners, as you put it warm and fat, then certainly an instrument that can deliver that is of choice. My 40s-era Czechoslovakian violin has the big and bright sound you describe as one preferred by those with more experience. Maybe later I’ll be ready for that. For now, I need the warm, sweet and full-bodied tone I get from the Gliga. It sounds a lot closer to the violins I hear in classical recordings done by world famous orchestras rather than that strangled chicken I mentioned earlier. At times, even I sound like a violinist, and that’s the inspiration and encouragement I need.

If you've been listening to recordings, you know what good recording engineering sounds like, not necessarily good instruments. Some of the best performance instruments don't record well at all. Also, what a violin sounds like under the ear is often VERY different than what it sounds like across a room, or even in a concert hall.  You should have heard Heifetz close-up!  Things aren't always as they seem....



Setup is a science and an art. I’m sure it would take a bit of time and effort to set up two or more violins to our exact tastes, but that is not practical, pre-sale, in the low end. I suppose this could be done once we are ready (and few of us ever are) to spend several thousand on a violin. I can easily understand a concert violinist going to this length. However I rely on the manufacturer and retailer to have an instrument that appeals to me as it is sold. That's the one I am going to buy. Additionally, if setup were the end-all, concert violinists would all be playing Cremona SV-65’s set up for their specifications. There is more to a violin than setup, even in the low end. We cannot discount quality wood and construction.

Setup's not the end-all, but good setup is essential to getting anywhere near the best out of an instrument.  With some instruments, their best is none too good, but a lot of lower priced instruments can sound quite surprisingly good. As I mentioned above, you might be surprised and how many pros actually do play pretty modest instruments, especially as backups for when their "good" instruments aren't up to snuff..

Mine is in fact “better than X” because it gives me what I want. Of course we all think ours is better, that’s why we buy them! They are most suitable to our needs and preferences as well as budgets. Yes, my Gliga Gems 1 is better than the Eastman 100 in my local shop. I know, I heard them side by side, same bow, same player, but a world of difference in the sound. If there is a better 100 out there with a better setup, great. But even at that considering what I heard I have no expectation that another one would be so much better than this example that it would sound as good as my Gliga. Like I said, no comparison, not even close. In terms of the "nonsense" that is out there, if you're careful you can get hard specifications on the instruments you are considering, and you can tell a lot by the sound. I am a thorough shopper, I took my time, bugged my local dealer until he offered to have my mail sent to the shop, and I am quite comfortable in saying the Romanian-made Gems 1 with Carpathian wood is a better sounding violin than the Eastman 100, and on par with the 305, with its Chinese wood, at twice the price. I am happy with my purchase.

Side by side comparison is indeed best. I don't think it makes much sense to buy specifications; they are simply not a reliable predictor of performance.  As a player, I buy sound, playabilty, response, and to some extent looks. I don't pay any attention to hype, and pay very little to "specifications".

I agree that a person should by what they like, and what works for them at the time. I'm not set on any hard rules about what an instrument should or should not sound like. But, I would recommend that anyone reading should buy the instrument, and not the story, and be aware that your tastes might change a lot as your skill develops.

I won't comment on individual brands, but in general my experience has been much the same as Steve's (Giannaviolins) posts above. We'll see whether some of the other luthiers here concur. In general, if you can get three or four people who actually do a decent job building and / or setting up instruments to agree on something, you can treat that opinion as fairly reliable.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  11:43:48

Thanks, I agree that the musician is a huge factor. I can take a $100 guitar and the owner (maybe a 12-year old beginner) will pop his eyes open at what his guitar can sound like. Doesn't mean my fingers appreciate the abuse! I can't say about the source of info on the Chinese wood, but I read that in a couple of places and it made sense. Some argue that the Southern Chinese wood does not grow in favorable conditions, others argue that it has not been used long enough for violin-making to be able to tell how it will age. So I decided to stay on the safe side and stick with European. I also have experience with Chinese guitars and based on that I made a decision to avoid that quality. I admit I do not know all there is to know, so I am careful. Chinese quality is under debate. European wood, tried and proven. I took the safe road.

I did consider specs as a starting point for the above and other reasons. After that, the side-by-side tests, and a lot of them, many times with the same instruments. And relative to your final comment, this was actually a key step in my decision-making. I heard of Gliga quality from so many sources I checked into it, and then the comparisons confirmed what I was hoping to find. I was not excited about the cosmetics, but the sound and the fact that I know where the wood came from puts my mind at ease that I made a good decision for a beginner. I do think I traded off finish for sound and it was a good trade. The Eastmans in the same price range look better but sound poor next to my Gliga.

I have mixed sound for many, many rock bands, churches, events, etc. Your point about recording fidelity is certainly valid, but I try to "listen through" the recording equipment as much as possible. I have also made comparative recordings between several violins using the same equipment to get a sense of the point of view of the listener. I also play the violin in my lap to get it out from "under the ear." Still, I am the one who will hear this instrument most, so maybe in the case of a beginner or student as opposed to a concert violinist, my ear, right where it is, is the one I should aim to please.

So many under-$1,000 violin makers don't mention where the wood came from, or how long it was aged. That says to me it's cheap wood with no chance of producing good tone no matter what the setup. These may as well be made from leftover firewood grown alongside the subways of New York and "aged" a month and a half. I like knowing what I can about origins and such... specifications. I can name a dozen violin manufacturers who dare not divulge this information, and I decided it would be a good idea to steer clear of those. Once I am as knowledgeable as some of you career industry insiders, I'm sure I'll be a little less leary about what I'm getting into. For now, I am a cautious newbie so the information provided by Gliga and some of the other well-known makers helps demystify things a bit. Gliga has no problem advertising type of wood, its origins, what kind of materials are used throughout, finishes, structural details, etc. I can point to the shop where mine was made and the forest where the wood was grown. Try finding that out on some of the other instruments made for the masses -- Scherl & Roth, Silver Creek, Cremona, etc. They offer violins in the same price range I paid but with too many question marks.

Again, thanks to all for a TON of useful info, what a great place to come with questions! Next up... bows! I am going to need some help there. For starters, what is all this fuss about balance? My bows balance nowhere near where I hold them! I also have a "fiberglass" bow and wonder - does this mean the stick or the "horsehair?" A strand came loose on that bow and I swear it's not anything natural. I just got an Eastman BL60 - once again just bought a starter bow from a well-known, trusted name. It bows smoother than my fiberglass bow, and my eBay special "Genuine Horsehair Brazilwood" bow.

giannaviolins - Posted - 03/15/2012:  11:56:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by aerobob427

[1] I don’t think I need to play for years before I can recognize nice sound.

[2] I have spent countless hours listening to violin music over the last 30 years and I know what quality violins sound like.

[3] That being said, I was going for an upgrade to my Scherl and Roth Model 30 without spending a grand. I also wanted to avoid Chinese wood.

[4] Look at the difference in the marketing materials for the Eastman 401: Crafted in Romania from select Carpathian tonewoods vs. the 305: Entirely hand-crafted from select tonewoods. No mention of Europe at all.

[5] I saw a chart (forget where) that stated the 100 and 305 were made from “Asian wood,” which is consistent with the above.

[6] Several people in threads here and elsewhere commented on the substandard quality of Southern Chinese wood and prefer European. I did find one supplier who states the Eastman 315 top is made from “Alpine Spruce,” and it is over $1,000 while with the Gems 1 you get Carpathian wood for under $500. I think the finish on the Eastman is a little nicer but the sound quality of the Gliga wins out.

[7] But you’re right, my tastes may change over the years. However, if I don’t like my instrument, I will not pick it up.

If I had bought the Eastman 100, I’d probably lose interest in violin altogether. I didn’t like it in the shop, it was shallow and tinny, end of story. If there is a certain tone quality typically preferred by beginners, as you put it warm and fat, then certainly an instrument that can deliver that is of choice.

[9] My 40s-era Czechoslovakian violin has the big and bright sound you describe as one preferred by those with more experience. Maybe later I’ll be ready for that. For now, I need the warm, sweet and full-bodied tone I get from the Gliga.

[10] It sounds a lot closer to the violins I hear in classical recordings done by world famous orchestras rather than that strangled chicken I mentioned earlier. At times, even I sound like a violinist, and that’s the inspiration and encouragement I need.

[11] Setup is a science and an art. I’m sure it would take a bit of time and effort to set up two or more violins to our exact tastes, but that is not practical, pre-sale, in the low end. I suppose this could be done once we are ready (and few of us ever are) to spend several thousand on a violin.

[12] I can easily understand a concert violinist going to this length.

[13] However I rely on the manufacturer and retailer to have an instrument that appeals to me as it is sold. That's the one I am going to buy.

[14] Additionally, if setup were the end-all, concert violinists would all be playing Cremona SV-65’s set up for their specifications. There is more to a violin than setup, even in the low end. We cannot discount quality wood and construction.

Mine is in fact “better than X” because it gives me what I want. Of course we all think ours is better, that’s why we buy them! They are most suitable to our needs and preferences as well as budgets. Yes, my Gliga Gems 1 is better than the Eastman 100 in my local shop. I know, I heard them side by side, same bow, same player, but a world of difference in the sound. If there is a better 100 out there with a better setup, great. But even at that considering what I heard I have no expectation that another one would be so much better than this example that it would sound as good as my Gliga. Like I said, no comparison, not even close. In terms of the "nonsense" that is out there, if you're careful you can get hard specifications on the instruments you are considering, and you can tell a lot by the sound. I am a thorough shopper, I took my time, bugged my local dealer until he offered to have my mail sent to the shop, and I am quite comfortable in saying the Romanian-made Gems 1 with Carpathian wood is a better sounding violin than the Eastman 100, and on par with the 305, with its Chinese wood, at twice the price. I am happy with my purchase.

---

I would like your answer again in 10 years of hard playing and work. 

[1]  You would likely be surprised at what little agreement exists on "good sound."  Good for what?  A complex question.  I hazard that you will be very surprised at your current state of ignorance once you have played a few hundred instruments and gained some hands-on skill in listening.

[2] Pretty much ditto, with Michael's point on recordings being well taken.  Recordings are not instruments, let alone instruments in the hand.  I suggest you read up on directional tone color for amusement.

[3] One can only upgrade so far for a modest price.  I'm not entirely sure how one avoids Chinese wood.  The Chinese make violins from wood that's sourced all over, including from Siberia, Canada, Alaska, etc.  Some of that wood is extremely good.  And some isn't.  

[4] You said it: "marketing materials."  Have you examined and played these?  You realize that the 401 is a Gliga product made for Eastman and varnished by Eastman?  You realize that much of the other Alpine spruce is considered by many to be superior?  Presuming these things are indeed what they purport to be.

[5] A "chart" is hardly evidence.  Especially when those importing instruments can't tell me where the wood comes from, except a market in Beijing.  

[6] I cannot imagine what southern Chinese wood is or how one would tell.  Poppycock.  Carpathian wood ranges from firewood on up.  As does most.  

[7] Of course you won't pick up an instrument you don't like.  And your tastes will change.  That doesn't change what an experienced worker and listener, and observer of violin players and students will bring to the party.

"An" Eastman VL100.  Not every VL100.  Perhaps not even an average one. These are rather decent when set up a bit.  The usual stock setup is the rental type and makes almost anything sound thin.  I've had them apart, had them in the white, and set up a goodly number.  I've sold them for over 10 years.  Some are better than others, I've not had a "bad" squeaky one, and I've certainly had some rather nice ones!

[9] I doubt your bright Czech has the brilliant sound I'm referring to.  Distinguish "brilliant" from "bright"

[10]  Recordings.  As you play.  That is a personal perspective from a minimally skilled player.  But you cast it as an absolute in much of your posting.

[11] Decent setup isn't rocket science.  All the instruments coming out of my shop have decent setup when they leave.  Comparisons here are fair and rational.  It's simply unfair to judge marginally set instruments.  Unless you're judging the shop.  Keep in mind that few instruments enter the country set.

[12]  I can easily understand any reasonable shop going to this length.  It's a problem comparing mail order brides, though.

[13]  Need to pick a good retailer then.  A real violin shop that handles step up instruments routinely.  Quite a few suppliers to the retail market do not provide good setup, and the importers often provide none, or several stages of setup.  Hard to make sure one is comparing apples to apples.

[14] Did I say setup was everything?  Setup equivalence is important for rational and equitable comparison.  That's hard to argue with.  Just as testing cars with randomly inflated tires isn't equitable.

And so on.  Come back in a decade, let me know how knowing everything ahead of gaining experience works out.

​Bas

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  12:52:29

1) You would likely be surprised at what little agreement exists on "good sound."

My opinion on the sound I like and want is the one that counts. You can stand next to me and tell me "this other one sounds better to me"" and I'd tell you, "Then you should go ahead and buy it."

2) The sound that matters to me, as I said, is what I hear as I am plying. Later on I'll be more concerned with what goes out to an audience, or onto a recording. Now is simply not the time for that. I have no audience other than me!

3) My Gliga sounds tons better than the Scherl and Roth.

4) I think you missed the point. Eastman does not say on their product description where the wood is from on the 305. Gliga does for all of their violins.

5) The chart listed sources of wood. I believe it was published somewhere (not in product description, but in a comparison chart). I am simply saying the 305 is made from Asian wood.

6) Again, I went with advice I got from may sources, who all prefer Carpathian, or at least European wood.

7) I'm not concerned about what an experienced violinist would bring to the party. I wanted an instrument I like. So I got one.

8) ...considering what I heard I have no expectation that another one would be so much better than this example that it would sound as good as my Gliga. Like I said, no comparison, not even close.

9) Moot. I can describe it all day long and until you hear it you can't really say.

10) Again you miss the point. I like the way I sound using the Gliga, so I am happy with it. I see no reason to buy something I don't like because someone told me a more experienced player would like it, or 10 years from now I'd want it. My point is this - if I don't like it now, I won't play for 10 years.

11 and on... yes, oranges and apples. You'd have to set up all instruments under consideration and o it with the same brand and type of strings. Let me boil this all down for you - I looked, I listened, I read, and I made a decision I'm happy with. I think that's enough.

giannaviolins - Posted - 03/15/2012:  14:03:39

I understand your position that you've bought what you like.

But you're by your own admission "a rank beginner" with a month of experience.  Yet you lecture those with rather decent amounts of experience, professionals in the trade, as if your highly limited experience rates extreme weight in general terms.  You did side-by-side comparisons of a few violins.  You read specs.

How many side-by-side comparisons have Michael and I done?

How many violins have you made?

It's your lecturing that's a problem here and sticks in my craw, especially when you have a number of facts rather wrong.  I know those "facts" may be out there on mysterious charts and so on.  I prefer to have the objects in my hands - and I have.  Eastman?  I've had numerous VL80, VL100, VL200, VL305, VL405, VL605, VL928 and even a poor performing VL501 through my shop. In the Romanian instruments, I owned one of the earliest Gliga's into the US and have worked on more than I can count.  I've directly imported small-shop Romanian instruments.  

Seems everyone here knows more than you do about this matter.  

If you like the Gliga, great, but that doesn't mean that every Gliga you would like better than every VL100 or every Eastman violin.  It certainly doesn't mean European wood is uniformly more effective in instruments than Chinese wood, if there is a consistent thing.  Maybe "Asian" captures most of it, but I know that north American wood ends up in China, certainly Siberian does, and a few builders are using good quality European wood to make rather dishy instruments in China.  Try a Ming Jiang Zhu sometime, once you can play.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  14:25:51

I'm not lecturing, actually it is you who has been lecturing, from this standpoint of infallible opinion. I'm simply responding to your questions, and your incessant contradictions. It seems every time I express what I decided and why, I need to defend it to you. I don't need to be reminded that I am new. I don't need to be reminded that you are king of all violinists and everyone should do as you do. I get it. I bow to your supreme knowledge. I'll return my Gliga right away and call you to order the violin of your choice. You wait by the phone now...

OldNSlow - Posted - 03/15/2012:  16:11:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by aerobob427

I'm not lecturing, actually it is you who has been lecturing, from this standpoint of infallible opinion. I'm simply responding to your questions, and your incessant contradictions. It seems every time I express what I decided and why, I need to defend it to you. I don't need to be reminded that I am new. I don't need to be reminded that you are king of all violinists and everyone should do as you do. I get it. I bow to your supreme knowledge. I'll return my Gliga right away and call you to order the violin of your choice. You wait by the phone now...

---

You ain't off to a wonderful start, here.  One month experience, and you lecture to some of the most experienced luthiers (and players) on this site?  By the way, can you play anything yet? But then again, you are a journalist.  You don't need to know what you are talking about to go on about it incessantly.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  17:49:15

Keep in mind that in email or a message board, you cannot sense the humbleness with which one communicates. You can't hear voice inflections. You can't read body language or see facial expressions. I am not preaching or lecturing. Your readiness to go to the attack without considering what is intended does not speak well of these particular individuals. I didn't ask for an argument or to be made to feel inferior. A big part of this has been defending my purchase to those who have belittled it.

Let me recap for you the welcome I got here:

I hazard that you will be very surprised at your current state of ignorance once you have played a few hundred instruments and gained some hands-on skill in listening.

Recordings.  As you play.  That is a personal perspective from a minimally skilled player.

How many side-by-side comparisons have Michael and I done? How many violins have you made?

You have a number of facts rather wrong.

Seems everyone here knows more than you do about this matter.  

Try a Ming Jiang Zhu sometime, once you can play.

By the way, can you play anything yet?

But then again, you are a journalist.  You don't need to know what you are talking about to go on about it incessantly.

I am just looking to have some fun, not argue. I came here looking for advice and I’ve gotten some qualified opinions. I have also gotten some nasty attitudes from a couple simply because I enjoy talking about a subject that is of interest to me and my views are not yours. To those who love to argue, put down, and condescend, please feel free to take your egos and attitudes to another thread. Thank you to those who have been helpful, cordial, and welcoming. Oh, and if being a luthier or violinist means looking down your nose at newcomers and attacking so rudely, I’d much rather be a journalist. You guys are giving this whole hobby a bad name. Or at least this board.

Edited by - aerobob427 on 03/15/2012 17:55:10

KCFiddles - Posted - 03/15/2012:  18:02:37

I don't care about personalities or who's lecturing whom. I used to know everything myself, before I got old and ignorant, so I can empathize.   Got a fairly thick skin, a reasonable amount of patience, and even a working, if dry, sense of humor hidden away somewhere, too.

I don't have any problem with a person buying what they like, since they are going to be playing the instrument.  Indeed, I recommend it. There's no hard and fast "right" and "wrong" in the fiddle world as there is to some extent in the classical world, and I'm just here to provide people with what they want. But I also think it's a good idea to make as informed a decision as possible, and some of your "information" is just plain wrong. You're happy with your decision, and that's great by me, but for the benefit of others who read this, there are some  things I think need to be made as clear as possible. Not ganging up on you,  just correcting some of the "facts". The worlds of violins, wine, martial arts, and mysticism are buried in avalanches of BS, and I think it's best to try to avoid adding to it whenever possible.

First, among low end student violins, say under $3,000, it makes no functional difference whatsoever where the wood came from, compared with how the wood was selected, and what the maker did with it.  It's not that some makers "don't dare" say where the wood comes from, but rather that some honest dealers find it misleading and irrelevant. Other lines that you mentioned are just relabeled  low-end instruments with no attention paid to much of anything other than looks, and best avoided, IMHO --  but not on account of where the wood came from. 

My current favorite fiddles in my shop are made with Asian wood and finished out by us, and I've got a whole lot of fiddles, new, old, German, Asian, and American to choose among. I don't know who your "many" sources are but they are either speaking in a different context, or just misinformed. 

I can understand a high-end maker having a preference for wood from a particular region for a variety of reasons (primarily familiarity), but that's another story altogether.  Also OK with me if a person prefers a particular "country of origin" label, as long as they don't try to tell others that it determines the quality of the product.

Second - to the best of my knowledge,  there ain't no Southern Chinese tonewood. Spruce and maple don't grow in low-level rain forests, or in monsoon forests.  Whoever is talking about it is just misinformed. In general, the level of manufacturing quality in the Beijing area is better, but I get some pretty good instruments out of Southern China as well, so geography isn't a valid standard, either. ( As a company, we buy several 40 ft containers of instruments a year from China at a variety of price levels, as well as producing our own professional level American made instruments that are in at least 11 countries so far, so we have some basis for comparison.)

As an aside, I'm not familiar with your model Scherl and Roth, and I'm not a particular fan of the line, but there's a very good chance it could sound dramatically different with a different setup. Ditto with the Czech fiddle.

Third,  I don't know of any confirmed instances of  instruments that have "lost tone" over the years due to a poor choice of wood. Makes no sense.  Cutting the tops too thin or treating hem with nitric acid as Vuillaume was said to do might have that effect, and all violin family instruments benefit from periodic adjustment and maintenance over the years, but I never encountered a situation where the wood itself lost its ability to produce tone.  More likely, the instrument was adjusted poorly, or the owner's ears got better..........

Finally, we used to do  business with Romanian and other European makers, including Gliga.  Not so much any more. Not knocking them -  they're still OK,  but we found people in China who are more cooperative and willing to provide us the product we want.  And I can tell you from direct knowledge on the ground in China  that some pretty big name European suppliers are either having instruments made for them in China by some of the same people we work with, or having instruments made in the white and finishing them out in Europe just as we do with some of our lines.  European laws about country of origin labels are pretty liberal, so "made in Germany" or "Made in Romania" or Poland may not have all the meaning that a person would expect, and is not even any kind of guarantee that an instrument was even "mostly" made in Europe, to the best of my knowledge.

If I were going to make a recommendation to a prospective buyer, I would say ignore the hype and  the so-called "specifications" other than the wood of the fittings and the choice of strings, compare LOTS of instruments from qualified sources, and buy whatever appealed to you as the best value, from people who are going to be there to back up your purchase. At least that's what I would do, knowing what I know.

Edited by - KCFiddles on 03/15/2012 18:04:26

giannaviolins - Posted - 03/15/2012:  18:16:27

I don't love to argue.  I apologize if I came off that way.  You might consider how you approached this subject, considering you have next to no experience in the field.  I don't know what your field is, but it can't be instruments or sound.   You will find that both Michael and I are very approachable.  You might consider that you are the one starting out putting down real experience of substantial depth by calling to rather superficial things that don't really count, and then promoting them.  

I understand that many of the facts and considered, well-grounded opinions presented don't match your current viewpoint.  That doesn't make them wrong.  Some of things you seem to like now are likely to bother you later, if you advance well.  Maybe you'll learn to make distinctions that are more useful than "good" or "bad," learn to compare apples and apples, and get more familiar with how the violin trade works.

Let's take the Gliga facility, for example.  Do you know much about them?  Do you know how they're set up?  Seen the videos?  They use Carpathian wood and promote it because it's right there.  It isn't particularly special, but it sounds great to say!  Is it better than the wood from around Kazanlak?  Or from the Alps?  Or from Siberia?  Or Bosnia?  Have you seen woods from those places?  Have you used wood from various places?  I don't think so, or you'd have mentioned that.  Yet somehow it's better than mere "Alpine" spruce.  Like Mr. Stradivari used.  Just an example.

Andah1andah2 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  18:47:39

I just came from the local jam.  I realized once again that it doesn't matter what kind of wood my fiddle is made of.  What I need to sound better is more practice.  It's going to be a long long time before I'm limited by the fiddle I play.  Now that doesn't mean I haven't been tempted by other fiddles.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  18:54:36

OK thanks for that, I do apologize if I came off "knowy," I really, truly did not mean to, I'm just excited about violin, and as one guy pointed out, I do like to write. Guilty as charged! And I will plead ignorance to most things violin, but not music, as I am a guitar teacher, musician, and have been playing 46 years. Locally I am probably as respected in guitar as you are here in violin.  I tried violin a decade ago and quickly gave up. Lately I've really gotten the bug. Please don't mistake my fervor for attitude! Maybe we can start this again.

OK so yes I do prefer certain things, again mostly due to the fact that I am in strange waters so I go with what I can grasp and what I can hear. I'm sure that will change over the years as it did with my other instruments. I won't mind that, I only spent $600 with Eastman BL60 bow so I won't be dismayed if I discover down the road I want something else. At some point I can see spending $1500 - 2000 but I am not ready for that yet. For now all I can tell is what a violin sounds like to me, and based on that I like the Gliga, Carpathian or Martian or whatever, as a starting point beyond the schoolboy Scherl and Roth. Yes the advertising of Carpathian wood appealed to me, and I heard (actually read) some very positive opinions on that particular wood, but if I heard that violin and didn't like the sound, wood origin would not have mattered. I also like what I hear about Eastman and believe me, it was a tough decision between the Gems 1 and the Eastman 305. But the Gems 1 was lower priced so again, as a newbie, I opted for the less expensive realizing there are other options out there of which I am not yet aware. So this is a safe buy for me at this point. *** I am not arguing your point or challenging your expertise, just explaining my thought process***

When you refer to what Stradivari used, are you referring to the Alpine spruce? Or the "it's?" I can't tell precisely. I would be interested in knowing what the world's best luthiers used.

Thanks again for the olive branch, much appreciated! I hope I can be understood better here as you all seem to have info I can use and I am all about hearing about it and talking about it right now! And I am really curious about the "balance" issue I keep hearing about bows, which I completely do not get.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  19:01:00

And thanks Woodwiz, sounds like you're plugged into the violin world pretty good too. Notes taken!

giannaviolins - Posted - 03/15/2012:  19:26:04

On bows, balance is one aspect.  There are also such things as the moment of intertia? something like that, around the balance point.  Stiffness, resilience, damping.  

You will very likely not like the better bows for quite a while.  They're rather responsive!

If you can get somewhere with a patient person and a range of violins and bows, then listen and try very very carefully, you'll learn a great deal rather quickly.  Usually a player isn't going to understand and explain the range of performance as well as someone who adjusts instruments very well.  

My personal interests at this point are in getting the most out of instruments through seemingly insignificant adjustments and scrapings.  It's a long story.  Became aware of the potential watching Doug Ching adjust classical guitars, back when I used to play.

I hope to shift my music business into some making, some restoration and repair, and some new instrument sales.  Probably concentrate on my own brand.  I may still do custom order guitars and mandolins.  Maybe not.  And of course, I'll have bows.  I just don't have the time i used to.  Got sucked back into "work" and it's fun.

You're welcome to visit.  Right near the Smoky Mountains in Tennessee.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  19:50:42

Oh ok, I was at a loss as to why balance is a factor, since the balance point is nowhere near the grip. This gives me some idea why. It's relevant to inertia at the balance point? It is starting to make sense. Thanks. Damping I guess is self-explanatory, meaning the effect of the hair and weight of the bow on the string and down through the violin. But resilience? I have heard of it but have no clue.

I played it safe and got the BL60. I trust this will get me going and a bit better than a student fiberglass bow. It does seem to give me less of that groaning sound when I start a bow stroke - it fires up into a note instead. Maybe it's the quality of the hair. Anyway it was another small step toward better playing. I have read various opinions on bows, some say spend about 1/10 the price of the violin, some say spend equal amounts, and some say spend more on the bow than on the violin!

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/15/2012:  19:52:51

Admittedly, I haven't waded through every word on this thread, but I'm going to pop off, anyway.  My advice -- Yes, it's important to be faithful to your significant other, but you don't have to exchange vows with your fiddle, unto death do you part.  As you progress on the instrument your tastes will change.   The way you hold the instrument and the bow will change.  Your shoulder will change.  So will your neck, your chin and your ears. Your whole approach to the instrument will change. 

Be promiscuous.  If you have the cash, don't be afraid of putting down the fiddle you've gotten tired of and buying the one that tickles your fancy...making sure, of course, that you audition it several times on several different days.  Buy another cheap one.  Or take the plunge and buy an expensive one, one that has the tonal qualities that Mr. Gianna and Mr. Woodwiz describe as being of the expensive type.

Lemme go off on a useless tangent.  For a good 35 years I was strictly a Martin Guitar guy.  I thought Gibsons sounded like somebody had stuffed them with old rags.  A couple years ago, a particular Gibson L-00 said hello with its dry, weathered voice.  Two years on, my two Martin guitars spend most of their time in their cases.  It's the Gibson I automatically reach for these days.

aerobob427 - Posted - 03/15/2012:  20:52:04

I can relate Lonesome, I was always a Gibson man, then back in 1994 I walked into a guitar shop looking for a 12-string acoustic and fell in love with a Stratocaster. That's all I played for about 15 years, and I forgot all about the 12 string. Only recently I picked up an Epiphone Les Paul and an SG. Now the Strat sits in the closet. Yes, we are a fickle lot. But it keeps things interesting! And geez, I haven't played a guitar in over a month now other than when I'm giving lessons. My own time is spent playing violin. So I am a promiscuous polygamist!