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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Is there such thing as accidental Chords?


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mswlogo - Posted - 02/25/2012:  11:18:31



I think I'm finally starting to understand Chords, Major and Minor chords etc.



Sorry if this is a dumb question.



But just like you can have accidental notes out of Key is there such thing as accidental Chords?



If so, do they happen often in Fiddle Music?



If so, do they happen as often as accidental notes?



If any note in a chord for a particular key is notated as accidental does that make it an accidental Chord?



How would it be shown with the Chord letter above the stave to indicate it's accidental?



 


mad baloney - Posted - 02/25/2012:  12:26:47



yep there sure are, they come up everywhere in jazz. a little in bluegrass but not so much in OT & 'Celtic'



For expample If you had a Dmajor chord with a D# in the root it would be noted as D#/D.



Diminished 7th come in handy at places like that usually noted as a Ddim7 or D7°


Swing - Posted - 02/25/2012:  13:25:59



Yes, they are sometimes called passing chords .  Playing in the key of A, I sometimes will use the G chord on the way to the E chord making a passage out of it...



Play Happy


mswlogo - Posted - 02/25/2012:  13:39:21



quote:


Originally posted by Swing




Yes, they are sometimes called passing chords .  Playing in the key of A, I sometimes will use the G chord on the way to the E chord making a passage out of it...



Play Happy






Are you basically saying that you tend not to stay in them very long?



 


alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/25/2012:  17:02:54



I've played many an accidental (oops) chord, but I don't think that's what you meant.



There are chords where the individual notes of the chord are not in the scale to the key you are in. An easy example is using the II chord - In the key of G the progression includes a A7 (with a C# note) chord rather than A minor (with the C). And it can stay on the A7 for more than just a passing. A more slightly complex example would be something like "Don't Let the Deal Go Down" in G, starts with a jump to an E major chord (using a G#), then to A major (using the C#). As well Chords can be in the form of chromatic progressions, just like notes can.



I have never heard of these chords being referred to as "accidental" 



In whether there are markings. When it's just the chord name (with or without fingering graphic) you just play what it says, their is no need to show any alteration. When the chord is actually written in the staff line, it shows each individual note, and will show, like all notation, if a note needs to be sharpend or flattened from the key signature; Sometimes comes in the form of showing a natural sign, for example the key of D shows a C#, if a chord in D needs a C note a natural symbol is shown next to the C note



Edited by - alaskafiddler on 02/25/2012 17:14:26

richdissmore - Posted - 02/25/2012:  17:07:17


if you have ever meet joe pass he is a grate jazz player and teacher i like what he said there is no such thing as a wrong chord its only missed placed i meet him once out standing guitar player heard him play with jazz fiddle play man what music

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/25/2012:  17:22:06



Forgot to add about chord names - as written, they are what they are no matter what key; a Em7 for example, does not change. Same I believe is true if they are represented by Roman numeral I, IV, V7... However, the Nashville Number System is much like the aural calling out of chords; it just says 2 or 3 or 6; so in written form, they do modify to demonstrate that instead of 6 being the relative minor, it is major. But I can't recall how they do that.


SamY - Posted - 02/25/2012:  22:11:06


I too have never heard of "accidental" chords. One thing I have learned about chords is there are no rules. The chords of a song can go literally anywhere. I had played gospel guitar for many years without encountering a song that the first change was a half step down. For example, in the key of D, the first chord change is from D-major to Db-major. Didn't seem like a likely way for a song to go to me. But I encountered a very beautiful song that does this entitled "What a precious friend is He".

I started learning guitar from my mother. She called a number 2 chord the "off" chord. For example, in key of D, the off chord would be E. I suppose someone she learned from used that term.

DougD - Posted - 02/25/2012:  23:35:13



I've never heard the term "accidental chord" either. There are many chords that are built on, or contain, notes not part of the diatonic scale. "Ragtime" chord progressions, like Alaskafiddler mentioned - G-E7-A7-D7 are one example. I'd call these "chromatic" chords, i.e. "any music or chord that contains notes not belonging to the diatonic scale," and they're the reason these tunes (the beginnings of jazz) don't sound like old time fiddle tunes (or "The Old Oaken Bucket," for that matter). There are simpler examples too - even i,iv, and v minor chords (c, f and g in the key of C) contain thirds that are not part of the C major diatonic scale, or of their own major scales either.



Where I've found this term online its always defined as "a chord containing one or more notes foreign to its proper harmony." This seems to be a jazz term, and I don't understand it either. What is meant by "proper harmony?" A diminished seventh chord, say a Cdim7 (C,Eb,Gb,A) follows its "proper harmony" exactly, as far as I can tell. What about an augmented fifth chord, like a Gaug (G,B,D#)? That needs an accidental to write it, but its "proper harmony" includes an augmented fifth by definition.



The late night work of some deaf, possibly drunk guitarists might be called "accidental," but unfortunately its usually deliberate, at least in my experience.



Edited by - DougD on 02/25/2012 23:39:23

Sue B. - Posted - 02/26/2012:  06:14:53


There's no term "accidental chord" with the meaning you intend, but anytime you have an accidental in the melody,and then play two notes at once, (or if you're playing w/someone seconding, or an accompaniment instrument), you're, in effect, making such. "Accidental chords" are also necessary for how we most commonly transpose to a new key. Sue

Dick Hauser - Posted - 02/26/2012:  07:23:23


Generally speaking, fiddlers focus on melody instead of rhythm and chord structure. When I played guitar and banjo, I spent a lot of time working on chord progressions. Effective use of chords can make backup more interesting. Edly's "Music Theory for Practical People" does a good job of discussing chords. If you get your hands on a copy, read the chapter on chord inversions.

Sue B. - Posted - 02/26/2012:  12:43:45


Oh- also listen to Bruce Molsky play harmonized melodies on his fiddle, or two parts on the fiddle while singing a third part. Opens a whole new world.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/26/2012:  13:15:10



quote:


Originally posted by DougD




Where I've found this term online its always defined as "a chord containing one or more notes foreign to its proper harmony." This seems to be a jazz term, and I don't understand it either. What is meant by "proper harmony?" A diminished seventh chord, say a Cdim7 (C,Eb,Gb,A) follows its "proper harmony" exactly, as far as I can tell. What about an augmented fifth chord, like a Gaug (G,B,D#)? That needs an accidental to write it, but its "proper harmony" includes an augmented fifth by definition.



The late night work of some deaf, possibly drunk guitarists might be called "accidental," but unfortunately its usually deliberate, at least in my experience.






I think "proper harmony" is referring to using chords with the notes in the scale. I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii

In G  would be G/Am/Bm/C/D/Em/ and then F#mb5 - all of which can be modified with their proper (major or minor) seventh, and extended to include ninths, elevenths, thirteenths using just the notes from the scale of G.



As far as the late night work, maybe some of the "accidental" is they thought it sounded good.


Tom Berghan - Posted - 02/27/2012:  04:08:24


No, there are no "accidental" chords. There are "substitution chords," which are simply chords that share some common notes. For instance instead of playing a G major, one can play a E minor which shares two notes (g and b). Sometimes the chord substituted does not share any notes, but merely implies a relationship. This occurs a great deal in jazz music from about 1950 forward, but never in "traditional" Old Time or Blugrass. Of course "extended harmonies" occur often in "Progressive Bluegrass."

Of course there is reason we call it "music theory" because if it sounds good to you, then you should do it! Then the theortisians will debate wahat you did and try to define rules for it!

But seriously, each genre of music has a set of a kind of rules which is why each one sounds different from each other yet you can always tell country music from flamenco music from Balken Folk Music, and on and on.

mswlogo - Posted - 02/27/2012:  08:54:42



I sort made up the term "Accidental Chords" to get my question across. But the term does exist.



en.wikisource.org/wiki/Complet...al_chords



websters-online-dictionary.org...%20Chords



 


scusigurl2011 - Posted - 03/12/2012:  08:13:08



"Accidentals" normally refer to sharps, flats, naturals, double sharps and double flats.  [ I've been cautioned that these symbols are only called "accidentals" if they're added to the music, in addition to the ones in the key signature, but not to the symbols in the key signature.  I hadn't made that distinction in teaching and I still don't, though perhaps I should.  I don't know.] 



But "accidental(s)" doesn't refer to chord structures.  What you may be referring to are non-harmonic tones



This may be another case of a poster requesting a cornbread recipe (I make really good cornbread, BTW), and I give them a chemistry text.  But I can only tell you what I know in connection with these issues, FWIW.  Nice analogy, however.



I would put it like this:  if you build a triad (a three note chord with root, third and fifth) on every note of a major scale, I, IV and V will be major and ii, iii, vi will be minor chords.  The vii° is a diminished chord or the top three notes of the V7 (dominant 7th).   



It takes a little while to learn how to do this, but if you analyze a piece, you will have lots of notes which do not exactly fit into the root-third-fifth configuration of each chord.  These are the non-harmonic tones.  They are divided loosely into accented and non-accented, but the most often ones you see are Passing Tones and Neighboring Tones. 



In university, students spend hours marking these things PT and NT, to distinguish between notes which fit exactly into the harmony and those that pass between the chord tones.  This issue is also related to ornamentation, as the various ornaments are often not notes in the chord structure.



 




 



From:   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonchord_tone



 



Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 03/12/2012 08:14:33

richdissmore - Posted - 03/12/2012:  12:57:05


the grate jass guitar player joe pass there no such thing as a wrong chord only miss placed i like to think thats pertty cool

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