pinch - Posted - 02/19/2008:  09:53:50

---

In the 17th measure of Lovers' Waltz there is a half note G with a minature quarter note G touching it. What is this called and how is this supposed to be played? In fact, that whole measure confuses me. There are two minature bridged quarter notes in that measure too. Aren't there too many beats in that measure, right?

__________________
Simplify, less is more.

---

Edited by - OTJunky on 05/30/2008 17:32:09

FiddleJammer - Posted - 02/19/2008:  10:00:00

---

I'm thinking you might be looking at some grace notes. Here's more info from Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_note


Cheers,

Terri

tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com

allenadale - Posted - 02/19/2008:  10:00:53

---

This sounds like a grace note from your description. It is an incidental note that is just barely played. Grace notes are usually given just a fraction of the time at the beginning of the note to which they are connected. Irish music is full of grace notes. Most of their ornamentation consists of grace notes. I'm sure someone else can post a sound file to illustrate how grace notes are played.

As for the two miniature bridged quarter notes. From your description it sounds like they may be grace notes as well. I'd really have to see the measure to explain it. Can you scan and post the musical notation?

bowbag - Posted - 02/20/2008:  08:37:39

---

It sounds like a grace note as the others suggested. If you're new to fiddling and you don't want to tackle them right now you could just ignore them. That's what I did for quite a while. You can always go back and tackle them at a later date. They can be a little confusing. Rather then try to define them from scratch here's a definition I found for grace notes on the web...

A grace note is a musical ornament, that is, a short note played just before a main one. It falls within the broad music-theoretic category of ornaments to which, for example, trills belong as well. In the musical score the duration of these notes is not indicated, their actual length is left to convention and the performer. They are not part of the metrical hierarchy, they are overlaid on the rhythmical structure, as one would expect of an ornament. There are different types of grace notes, depending on their musical context, the most important classes are appogiatura, so-called time-taking ornaments and acciaccatura, timeless ornaments.

telln - Posted - 02/20/2008:  08:40:15

---

Pinch, go to dearoldillinois.com They have a very helpful section on different ornamentations, how they are written and also a sound file so you can hear them.
Teln

jonno - Posted - 02/20/2008:  13:53:34

---

Telln,

That's a nice set of examples on the dear old illinois site. Thanks for pointing it out.

Here is a direct link to the page that explains the ornaments.

http://www.dearoldillinois.com/orn.html

FiddleJammer - Posted - 02/20/2008:  19:29:43

---

Dang, that site is the best thing since fine tuners!!!!

Cheers,

Terri

tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com

Monkey - Posted - 02/29/2008:  11:32:13

---

No doubt that is a grace note, but it is odd to see the grace note and the following note are the same (value/tone). I would be tempted to play that as a "cut" on the fiddle (See ornaments under: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whistle). Something similar to what a flat picker would call a "pull off" - you flick the string with a free finger without attempting to stop an actual note, with no bowing changes.

session savage - Posted - 03/01/2008:  05:22:05

---

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but....

on that list of ornaments (excellent page, thanks for the post)
there is no roll. I think from glancing at the page that, what we call cuts, ye call punches. So maybe ye have a different name for rolls or don't ye use them?

"A violin sings.... a fiddle dances!"

coelhoe - Posted - 03/01/2008:  12:07:42

---

The ornament in Irish fiddling that is called a"roll," to my knowledge is not typically used in North American fiddling, though there may be some Canadian styles that do use it.

Dennis




"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

coelhoe - Posted - 03/01/2008:  12:14:33

---

As I look at measure 17 of "Lover's Waltz" Key of G, I see two sets of grace notes (lower case for the grace) d e D g a G F#. Looks like you have the option of bowing to the opn string, or playing to the prime with the pinky. My guess is that Ungar does the latter.

Dennis




"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

Monkey - Posted - 03/04/2008:  15:13:41

---

"Session Savage" - now that looks like a familiar name from another site ;-)
I have to agree - from what I've seen, variations of the classic "turn" ornament (what Irish players evolved into "rolls") just didn't seem to survive the boat trip across the Atlantic and the climb up the Appalachians. It seems a lot of that was dropped in favor of non-flowing bow styles. Once you quit slurring more than a couple of notes at a time a string of 4 grace notes becomes a bit of an obstacle. Texas fiddling started re-introducing ornaments and "long bows". I'm hard pressed to think of where I've seen/heard the use of turns though - but it isn't a style I'm widely familiar with. Someone else might set us straight...

Fiddlechickaroo - Posted - 03/11/2008:  20:01:20

---

Take a listen to Jay Unger, who wrote the tune, and Aly Bain. Might as well go all the way to the source, Jay Unger, to figure out how to play it.

Fiddlechickaroo

Fiddlechickaroo - Posted - 03/11/2008:  20:02:16

---

Wooops! Forgot to add the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0xYp_xnhwI

Jay Unger/ Aly Bain

Fiddlechickaroo

mike jarboe - Posted - 04/03/2008:  00:56:42

---

I saw Jay at a session tonight and asked if he could settle this. I told him I would e-mail him the
thread, so perhaps he will send me a response or even sign up here and give an answer.

mike

mike jarboe - Posted - 04/03/2008:  11:29:59

---

Oh, and for accuracy's sake, his last name is Ungar, not Unger.

FiddlerJay - Posted - 04/03/2008:  12:27:15

---

Mike Jarboe sent me a link to this thread. Pinch wrote " In the 17th measure of Lovers' Waltz there is a half note G with a minature quarter note G touching it. " That sounds like grace note, but Molly and I looked through the published versions of our tune The Lovers' Waltz and can't find one with ornamentation. What's your source Pinch? I play it a little differently each time and consider written versions (unless part of an orchestral arrangement) to be a good way to transmit the tune, but only an approximation of my actual playing. I'm happy when people learn my tunes and then find their own interpretation, but if you do want to copy my style, recordings and videos are good, or better yet, come join us at Ashokan some summer. See http:ashokan.org

pinch - Posted - 04/03/2008:  18:17:21

---

I am honored and humbled by all the expert attention my newbie question is getting. You can see an image with the measures of interest with the grace notes here:

http://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhang...31&albumid=0

The image came from the Lovers' Waltz version that I purchased online from Swinging Door Music as a PDF file:

http://www.jayandmolly.com/prodmus.shtml






__________________
Simplify, less is more.

---

Edited by - pinch on 04/03/2008 18:38:46

Johnny Thomasson - Posted - 04/03/2008:  18:45:07

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mike jarboe

I saw Jay at a session tonight and asked if he could settle this. I told him I would e-mail him the
thread, so perhaps he will send me a response or even sign up here and give an answer.

mike

---

Now, how cool would that be? What I wouldn't give to see some of the big boys sign up and share their knowledge and experience here.

Johnny Thomasson
Aledo, Texas

DougD - Posted - 04/03/2008:  19:15:57

---

So Johnny, did you notice the post two above yours?
Hi Jay - welcome to the forum. Do you have any questions about fiddling we can help you with?

---

Edited by - DougD on 04/03/2008 19:17:15

Johnny Thomasson - Posted - 04/03/2008:  19:25:43

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

So Johnny, did you notice the post two above yours?
Hi Jay - welcome to the forum. Do you have any questions about fiddling we can help you with?

---

Nope, I surely didn't!!! Jay, WELCOME to the FHO! I and I'm sure many others are excited to see you here, and hope to hear from you often! Love your playin', man! I'll make you a deal... you keep makin' CDs, and I'll keep buyin' 'em!

Hot dang!

Johnny Thomasson
Aledo, Texas

Edited to say, Jay, if you are ever in my neck of the woods (Fort Worth, Texas), I would give anything to play harmony with you on the Lover's Waltz. It's the most beautiful waltz I ever heard.

---

Edited by - Johnny Thomasson on 04/03/2008 19:32:41

mike jarboe - Posted - 04/03/2008:  20:20:04

---

I'm a hardcore old-time player. Lovers' Waltz is so beautiful that it is one of a very few that I play.

kyfiddler1 - Posted - 04/03/2008:  20:50:15

---

Welcome to thr FHO Jay! I do play one oy your tunes ashokan farewell. I love that tune.

Practice only on days that you eat!!

Kyfiddler1

---

Edited by - kyfiddler1 on 04/04/2008 21:59:00

amwildman - Posted - 04/03/2008:  22:17:58

---

That's a grace, note, all right. A grace note before the low G, but that borrows time from the higher G. It would probably be ok to even hit a bit of a double-stop in the transition. Depending on style, of course.

John Gent - Posted - 04/03/2008:  22:31:47

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by FiddlerJay
... The Lovers' Waltz ...

---

Sigh. Now I'm almost embarrassed to leave my version on my music page.

But y'know what, I'm leavin' it anyway!

Welcome to the FHO Jay. If y'all are ever out in Oregon ...

- John

mike jarboe - Posted - 04/04/2008:  02:50:12

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kyfiddler1

Welcome to thr FHO Jay! I do play one oy your tunes ashokans farewell.

---

It's Ashokan Farewell. No S. Just for the record. And is there anyone anywhere who doesn't love that tune?

DougD - Posted - 04/04/2008:  05:30:09

---

Jay will know for sure, but I don't think those are grace notes, pinch. It seems to be an attempt to show an alternate or improvised way of playing those phrases, or maybe an accompaniment/counterpoint part on the same staff. The large notes with the stems up are the basic melody - half note, two eighths; half note, two eighths: half note, two eighths. The notes with the stems pointing down (some of which are the same ones) are the variation or accompaniment - quarter note, four eighths; quarter note, four eighths; quarter note, four eighths. The extra notes are the ones below the staff, (low G, B and C) and the first note of each measure changes from a half note to a quarter to make room for them.
The alternate/accompaniment part is written smaller than the basic melody except for the G,F(#?) eighths at the end of each measure, which have stems going both ways, meaning they're to be played in both versions.

---

Edited by - DougD on 04/04/2008 10:53:21

FiddleJammer - Posted - 04/04/2008:  17:52:51

---

I could be wrong, but that might be a left hand accompaniment for a piano. Sounds like how Molly might play it. Maybe Jay could ask her. :-)

Cheers,

Terri

tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com

FiddlerJay - Posted - 04/04/2008:  18:07:02

---

Aahhh, now I see what Pinch was looking talking about. I wrote that pdf file, sorry if it's confusing. Those little notes are definitely NOT grace notes. The bigger notes with the stems all up are played the first time through, the smaller notes with the stems down are played (instead of the larger ones) the second time through. It's a little shortcut to make it all fit on one sheet of paper. This is more or less how I played it on our original recording. But as I said earlier, once you think you've learned the tune have fun and do it your own way.

FiddlerJay - Posted - 04/04/2008:  18:10:02

---

I hadn't seen all the nice welcoming messages till now. THANKS!!!

Jay Ungar

ladymuse - Posted - 04/05/2008:  19:27:37

---

Does Lover's waltz have lyrics? You could be looking at the straight music line with the vocal syllables marked into account -

grace notes are always generally miniaturized 16th notes, and usually start above or below the note - (and connected by a slur)

jen
*see my homepage (blog) In Defense of music theory-whether you know it or not - you use it everytime you play!! -