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Summlan - Posted - 01/27/2008: 05:52:31
I am new here and new to the fiddle but I have listened to Old-Time music for several years. I also know elementary music theory (major and minor scales, chord theory and so on).
I have seen a lot of the word "modal", for example modal music, modal tuning and so on, and I have difficulties to real understand what it is? In the more basic music books I have there is no mentioning about modal.
Have I understand it right if modal scales is something between major and minor scales? Where can I learn more about modal music and modal theories?
Thank you.
Summlan
Edited by - OTJunky on 05/30/2008 17:35:30
allenadale - Posted - 01/27/2008: 11:00:24
Simply put, modes are different scales played all in the same key. They were first defined by the ancient Greeks, and latter redefined by the church.
Modes are defined as a particular series of half and whole steps.
If you have a keyboard handy, this can be easily illustrated using the white keys. Playing from C up to the next higher C, we have a major scale in the key of C. In modal terms, this is the Ionian mode.
If we start and end on D, then we have the Dorian mode.
E to E gives us the Phrygian mode.
F to F gives us the Lydian mode.
G to G gives us the Mixolydian mode.
A to A gives us the Aeolian mode (the same as a minor key)
B to B gives us the Locrian mode.
You can transfer the modes to any key so long as you know the relationship between notes and on what note the mode begins and ends.
Here's a little table for mapping out where the modes begin and end in relation to the major key, and the relationship between notes.
H = half step; W = While step
Ionian - Tonic - WWHWWWH
Dorian - Second - WHWWWHW
Phrygian - Third - HWWWHWW
Lydian - Fourth - WWWHWWH
Mixolydian - Fifth - WWHWWHW
Aeolian - Sixth - WHWWHWW
Locrian - Seventh - HWWHWWW
Each mode has a distinct sound; sort of like its own personality. If you have a mountain dulcimer, you can get a feel for these different sounds.
Dulcimers are modal instruments. By setting the drone strings to different pitches, you can change the mode in which you are playing. Normally the mountain dulcimer is tuned into the Mixolydian mode. This is a very common mode in folk music. There are lots of Irish fiddle tunes in this mode. It is almost a major key, but with a wild hint of the minor.
Here are dulcimer tunings for the different modes. Tuning is given in relationship to the melody string(s), where x + is so many steps up from the open string, and X is an octave lower than the open string. Try retuning your dulcimer in these various modes and then play around with it, fretting only the melody string and using the drones to establish the mode. You will quickly familiarize yourself with the differing personalities of the modes.
Melody string / middle drone / lower drone
Ionian: x / X+3 / X (or x / x / X+3, or x / x / X)
Dorian: x / X+4 / X+1
Phrygian: x / X+5 / X+2
Lydian: x / X+6 / X+3 [or x / X+3 / X+6 (Double Octave)]
Mixolydian: x / X+4 / X (or x / x / X+4)
Aeolian: x / X+5 / X+1 (or x / x+1 / X+5)
Locrian: x / X+6 / X+2 (or x / x+2 / X+6)
On the last three modes, you will probably want to use the first suggested tuning to avoid string breakage.
mikey - Posted - 01/27/2008: 11:35:19
Well I certainly agree with the above posts, but more simply put, A mode defines where the half steps are or change from within the scale. In a practical sense, it makes more difference for the person chording than it does to follow the melody line. Many people don't recognize that they are playing in a different mode, and perhaps don't really need to know. There are a gazillion pages of music modes if you do a google search, I'm pretty sure that of the many explanations and diagrams, one will satisfy and give you an understanding of it.
MIKEY
M-D - Posted - 01/27/2008: 11:48:57
You may also hear the terms "playing in the minors", or "playing in dischord" to describe a modal tune, depending upon what part of the country you're in.
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/27/2008: 12:35:24
Good stuff so far, but maybe a little complex.
Only two modes are used much at all in Old Time, Bluegrass, and Irish music.
Dorian and Mixolydian.
The proof is in the pudding-
play D to D, all white keys on a piano-, like Allanadale said, that's Dorian.
Used for June Apple and Old Joe Clark.
play G to G, all white keys on a piano, that's Mixolydian.
Used for Shady Grove, and many others.
A telltale difference is revealed in the guitar backup.
Both have a minor 7th step in the scale, so in the key
of A, both will use a G chord a lot.
But since Dorian has a minor third, it'll use an A minor for the A chord,
while Mixolydian will use the A major since it has a major third as well.
You could also say, since there are three places where a major scale differs from a minor scale,
that Dorian is 2/3 minor and 1/3 major,
and Mixolydian is 1/3 minor and 2/3 major.
Neither one has a minor 6th step like Aeolian (full minor) does.
Because "Mixolydian" is such a mouthful of a word, and because some tunes mix the two modes
(Kitchen Girl, among others) it's easier for many to just use the grab bag term "modal" rather
than name the specific mode used.
But technically, since full major is "Ionian" mode,
and full minor is "Aeolian" mode-
EVERYTHING IS MODAL!
Michael
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
"Natchez Under The Hill-
it sounds a lot like Turkey in the Straw, but still there's a difference"- Lon Jordan
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/27/2008 12:40:40
DougD - Posted - 01/27/2008: 20:02:07
fiddlepogo - Not that I think about this very much, but I do think that "June Apple" and "Old Joe Clark" are mixolydian, at least the way I play them, and I've seen them described that way - they have a major third. "Shady Grove" has a better chance of being Dorian, but it might be just pentatonic.
Edited by - DougD on 01/27/2008 20:02:50
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/27/2008: 21:14:16
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
fiddlepogo - Not that I think about this very much, but I do think that "June Apple" and "Old Joe Clark" are mixolydian, at least the way I play them, and I've seen them described that way - they have a major third. "Shady Grove" has a better chance of being Dorian, but it might be just pentatonic.
ACKKKKKK! THPTTHFTTHH!
(to quote Bill the Cat!")
I said:
"The proof is in the pudding-
play D to D, all white keys on a piano-, like Allanadale said, that's Dorian.
Used for June Apple and Old Joe Clark.
play G to G, all white keys on a piano, that's Mixolydian.
Used for Shady Grove, and many others."
I GOOFED!!!!
I reversed what I meant to say-
like you said June Apple and Old Joe Clark
are mixolydian (minor 7th)
and I meant to say Shady Grove is Dorian!
(you may be right about the pentatonic too...)
I obviously need to spend a little more time on editing posts
for errors due to late night brain-fade!
Good catch!
(said Michael, wiping virtual egg off face...)
Michael
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
"Natchez Under The Hill-
it sounds a lot like Turkey in the Straw, but still there's a difference"- Lon Jordan
bowbag - Posted - 01/28/2008: 08:44:39
This is some great info guys. I've learned some Dorian tunes in the past and I'm actually work on one now but I've never really thought out the theory behind it.
rastewart - Posted - 01/28/2008: 11:15:23
Very interesting and informative thread, though it's making my head spin. What's kind of cool is that I had all those years of piano lessons, band, chorus, et cet'ry, but now fiddling is going to push me into a whole new level of understanding of theory.
It does remind me, though, of a woman fiddler I used to hear sometimes. She knew all those modes backwards and forwards, and if you put your finger on a string and said, "Play me a Locrian scale from there," she'd reel it right off. Knew at least a hundred tunes and played them all modally, one way or another.
Equal to her talent was her striking appearance. She was tall, elegant-looking, and skinny as a rail, and when playing she would just stare straight ahead with this perfectly blank expression on her face.
She was, in fact ...
a super-modal.
_____________________________________________
... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/28/2008: 13:04:12
Ewwww!!! Groan!
Good one!
Wait a minute.... maybe I shouldn't be <encouraging> you!
quote:
Originally posted by rastewart
Very interesting and informative thread, though it's making my head spin. What's kind of cool is that I had all those years of piano lessons, band, chorus, et cet'ry, but now fiddling is going to push me into a whole new level of understanding of theory.
It does remind me, though, of a woman fiddler I used to hear sometimes. She knew all those modes backwards and forwards, and if you put your finger on a string and said, "Play me a Locrian scale from there," she'd reel it right off. Knew at least a hundred tunes and played them all modally, one way or another.
Equal to her talent was her striking appearance. She was tall, elegant-looking, and skinny as a rail, and when playing she would just stare straight ahead with this perfectly blank expression on her face.
She was, in fact ...
a super-modal.
_____________________________________________
... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft
Michael
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
"Natchez Under The Hill-
it sounds a lot like Turkey in the Straw, but still there's a difference"- Lon Jordan
Midwest_Fiddler - Posted - 01/28/2008: 15:25:39
When talking modal scales one need s to be cautious when proclaiming a mode's name. If the scale is gapped, (pentatonic, hexatonic) i.e., missing a note in the scale, the mode becomes ambiguous. They are, as stated before, defined by the arrangement of whole & half steps. So, if notes are missing from the scale, the provebial wrench is thrown in the works. 
(at least this is what I recall about the subject)
Chirps
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/28/2008: 18:33:52
Chirps, thanks for that. Now, I'll go read more about gapped scales.
Just when I thought I knew everything. :-)
Here's a direct link to the chart I was working on...
[link removed - it was now pointing at a godaddy.com ad WTF?]
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
Edited by - FiddleJammer on 01/07/2009 14:21:12
bsed - Posted - 01/28/2008: 20:59:05
quote:
Originally posted by Midwest_Fiddler
When talking modal scales one need s to be cautious when proclaiming a mode's name. If the scale is gapped, (pentatonic, hexatonic) i.e., missing a note in the scale, the mode becomes ambiguous. They are, as stated before, defined by the arrangement of whole & half steps. So, if notes are missing from the scale, the provebial wrench is thrown in the works.
(at least this is what I recall about the subject)
Chirps
Can you think of a tune that uses a pentatonic scale? That'd be interesting to know.
And while I'm at it, I have a question about Old Joe Clark:
OJC is a tune in A. But look at the third note of the tune. Gb (Low 2nd finger on the E string).
Now in the key of A you would expect to play G# in keeping with the A-major scale. So this note would be called an "accidental" in the world of written music, because it's an exception to the rule. BUT.....Is it actually the case that OJC is really a modal tune?
I'm going to try to answer my own question. According to the charts that
Allanadale posted earlier in this thread, the only mode that fits OJC is the Ionian. But I still don't think OJC fits the Ionian mode.
So the question might become this: Why does a Gb sound better than a G# ?
"I can, and do, cut my own hair."
-Dwight Shrute
"I convinced my boss of my acumen in sales, and he rewarded me with these two plaques of recognition in lieu of a pay increase."
-Dwight Shrute
Edited by - bsed on 01/28/2008 21:05:00
OTJunky - Posted - 01/28/2008: 21:07:14
I think we once said that "Angeline the Baker" uses a pentatonic scale - though I'm no expert on this kind of esoterica.
The note you mention in OJC is not a "G flat" it's a "G natural" - half step down from G#.
Yes, the A-part of OJC is modal (Mixolydian mode).
So, is the B-part when played by most modern fiddlers.
But there are OT versions of OJC played in AEAE where the B-part does not include a G natural. I think oldtimer recorded a version like this and posted it on his music page.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
ghopper - Posted - 01/28/2008: 21:48:08
New here, first post. This may be useful.
http://www.zentao.com/guitar/modes/modes-2.html
Primarily a guitar site, but down towards the end of the page are pedal tone backing tracks in each of the following modes:
C - Ionian
D - Dorian
E - Phrygian
F - Lydian
G - Mixolydian
A - Aeolian
B - Locrian
I found listening to these pedal tones to be a great way to both get the feel of the different modes, and also find the fingering patterns relating to each. Guitar, fiddle, any instrument.
I'm new to the violin and was wondering if anyone has a chart of the violin fingerboard with the fingering patterns for each mode?
Hope this helps,
ghopper
DougD - Posted - 01/28/2008: 22:27:24
OTJ - The way I know it, the melody of "Angeline" uses all the degrees of the scale except the seventh. I guess it could be hexatonic, but I just think of it as a major tune.
For a pentatonic melody, think of something by Dock Boggs, like "Country Blues" or "Honeybabe Blues" ("Red Rocking Chair"), or "The Cuckoo" by Tom Ashley. I guess it could be any five notes, but the usual scale is I, flat III, IV, V, flat VII i.e G, Bb, C, D, F. Theses could come from the Dorian, Phrygian, or just plain old Aeolian (minor) modal scales. A fiddle tune with a pentatonic melody might be "Cluck Old Hen."
And the scale beginning on A in the mixolydian mode has only two sharps, F# and C#, instead of the usual three. So the G natural is not an accidental in A mixolydian. Take a look at Terri's hard won chart.
And referring to the original post, as Chirps said, many tunes that are loosely called "modal" are really pentatonic.
Edited by - DougD on 01/29/2008 05:49:04
allenadale - Posted - 01/28/2008: 23:05:14
Late chiming in here. OTJ has it right, OJC Is in Mixolydian mode, as most folks play it nowadays. But when I play it in cross tuning, I usually play the B part in Ionian mode.
ghopper - Posted - 01/28/2008: 23:28:07
Thanks Mikey for the heads up on the fiddle scales 2.0
I'll put to good use straight away.
ghopper
OTJunky - Posted - 01/29/2008: 07:01:07
quote:
DougD wrote:
OTJ - The way I know it, the melody of "Angeline" uses all the degrees of the scale except the seventh. I guess it could be hexatonic, but I just think of it as a major tune.
FWIW - the way I know it, the melody doesn't use either the fourth scale degree or the seventh.
But I agree the melody sounds major and I've already admitted to having no expertise on what's pentatonic and what's not so I won't be pushing the claim that it's pentatonic.
And - again FWIW - I think I do use all the notes of the A-Dorian scale to play Cluck Old Hen. But the pentatonic classification always been a little fuzzy to me so if somebody thinks it's pentatonic, I'm happy to go along with it.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 01/31/2008: 04:58:29
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
For a pentatonic melody, think of something by Dock Boggs, like "Country Blues" or "Honeybabe Blues" ("Red Rocking Chair"), or "The Cuckoo" by Tom Ashley. I guess it could be any five notes, but the usual scale is I, flat III, IV, V, flat VII i.e G, Bb, C, D, F.
That looks like a "minor" pentatonic to me. There is also a "major" pentatonic, which I think is used much more in fiddle music, however they are really the same. The above pentatonic is actually a G minor pentatonic or a Bb major pentatonic. Same notes, but the root changes the feel. If you end up on a Bb flat note, it's likely to have a major (countryish) feel, whereas if you end up on the G it's going to sound minor (bluesy). The major pentatonic is just - do re mi so la .
Guitar players will recognize the ol' Lester Flatt G run, or a boogie woogie bass line.
Amazing Grace is from a major pentatonic scale. It begins ( so la do .....). Durham's Reel is also a major pentatonic.
If you're playing in G major you could think E minor pentatonic, but it's seems easier to me to just think G major, and skip the 4th (fa) and the 7th (ti) note.
ladymuse - Posted - 02/03/2008: 05:10:10
Try this link -
spelled out simply so you can see how they apply to all notes - easy and clear - and great definitions!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode
jen (ladymuse)
Edited by - ladymuse on 02/03/2008 05:10:40
Grassapelli - Posted - 02/11/2008: 11:54:58
Great thread! Excellent comments.
Uncle says, "One more thing."
Irish tunes use Mixolydian for major tunes more often than not,
and Dorian for minor tunes.
Red Haired Boy and Road to Lisdoonvarna are well known examples.
Grasssapelli
Elan Chalford
http://snapvine.com/Grassapelli
OTJunky - Posted - 02/11/2008: 12:23:51
quote:
Originally posted by Grassapelli
Great thread! Excellent comments.
Uncle says, "One more thing."
Irish tunes use Mixolydian for major tunes more often than not,
and Dorian for minor tunes.
Red Haired Boy and Road to Lisdoonvarna are well known examples.
I dunno...
I went over to
www.TheSession.org, did a quick count of A, E, G and D tunes using the Search function, and got these numbers.
A tunes...
Major - 510
Mixolydian - 240
Minor - 200
Dorian - 420
E tunes
Major - 40
Mixolydian 20
Minor - 350
Dorian - 310
G tunes
Major - 2100
Mixolydian - 40
Minor - 110
Dorian - 60
D Tunes
Major - 2070
Mixolydian - 210
Minor - 100
Dorian - 80
Now these numbers are "rounded" in the sense that I took the number of "Pages" of tune titles and multiplied the number of tunes per page - which was 10. So, any one of these numbers could be up to 9 higher than it should be.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 02/11/2008 12:25:17
Grassapelli - Posted - 02/11/2008: 17:43:28
quote:
I dunno...
I went over to www.TheSession.org, did a quick count of A, E, G and D tunes using the Search function, and got these numbers.
My first day of posting to this forum and I've already put my foot in it!
Seeing the evidence made me question my opinion. Why did I think that so many tunes were modal in the Irish fiddle repertory?
I took a look at the first ten tunes from handy sources to get some real data. That's not exactly a scientific sample, but better than nothing.
My criteria:
1. If a tune is predominantly major and cadences, or resolves from the5 to the 1, then it's "Major." (I don't know how thesession.org determines this.)
2. If a tune is major and does not clearly cadence 5 to 1, it's modal. If the tune uses the lowered 7th, it's mixolydian.
3. If a tune is minor and cadences from 5 to one it's "Minor."
4. If a tune is minor and does not cadence from 5 to 1, it's modal. Again, if the lowered 7th is prominent, it's Dorian.
The results of the survey:
O'Neill's, the first 10 jigs. 6 are minor and 4 are Dorian.
The first 10 reels. 6 are major and 4 are modal, of those, 3 are Mixolydian.
The Irish Session Tune Book, Mel Bay.
The first 10 reels. 3 are major, 7 are modal, of those only 1 was clearly Mixolydian and 1 Dorian. The other 5 were mixed in their scale and ambiguous in the melodic implication of harmony. Cadences could be 4 to 1 or 2 to 1 in some cases.
Under the Moon. Of the first 10 tunes 3 are clearly major or minor, 7 are modal.
My conclusion: I overstated the case for Dorian and Mixolydian modes. The typical Irish tune may be modal, but not necessarily one of those modes.
I appreciate, now that I have done a little research, the challenge offered by the moderator, OTJunky. It's his job to keep an eye on wild statements.
My understanding of this repertory is a little deeper now on the intellectual side. Whether that means I won't have to play a tune so many times to learn it remains to be seen.
You might notice that Martin Hayes, one of my favorite fiddlers, uses modal tunes at the rate of 70% in my survey. My guess is that Liz Carroll also does.This is a slightly higher percentage than I found in O'Neill's. The Irish Session Tune Book also shows the higher percentage.
My intuition is that the best players gravitate towards the modal tunes, as do the players who follow their example.
Grasssapelli
Elan Chalford
http://snapvine.com/Grassapelli
FiddleJammer - Posted - 02/11/2008: 18:05:35
Elan, That snapvine site is cool. I hadn't seen anything like it before.
Perhaps the modal tunes are just quirkey enough that they catch our attention more than the standard, western, major and minors keys. Seems like there's more that way?
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
OTJunky - Posted - 02/11/2008: 18:32:11
quote:
Grassapelli wrote:
My first day of posting to this forum and I've already put my foot in it!
One of FHO's redeeming traits is that we try not to take ourselves too seriously and - as for putting your "foot in it" - this is nothing compared to some the posts I've made. So, please, don't give this a moment's thought.
Besides, the numbers I gathered say nothing about the percentages among just the tunes that are most commonly played and heard. So, you might still be right in that regard.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 02/11/2008 18:39:22
allenadale - Posted - 02/12/2008: 10:48:55
Grassapelli,
Don't fret . We all put our feet in our mouths here.
Personally, if I'm playing with a celtic session somewhere and we start an unknown tune with D as a tonic, I will lean towards playing it in Mixolydian mode. More often than not this seems to work better than trying to take it in straight D major.
Often times our impressions are not backed up by a statistical analysis.
best wishes,
Dale
edited for typos
Edited by - allenadale on 02/12/2008 10:50:15
Sue B. - Posted - 01/08/2009: 07:29:23
To be quite correct, major and minor are also modes. But in common practice musicians refer to tunes not major or minor as "modal." Yes, typically mixolydian or dorian. There are a handful of interesting Cajun mixolydian tunes. You can pick them right out when you hear a chord progression that goes G-F-G-F. Sue
