Brian J - Posted - 05/16/2011:  18:28:46

Don't know how to describe this any other way than to say that I have one place on the finger-board - C note, first position on the G string - where my fiddle is just 'dead' - has no resonance.  I had the same issue with my first fiddle, although a different note/frequency, but wrote it off to the fact that it was a pretty poor excuse for an instrument.  This one is a considerably better fiddle, presumed German from the turn of the last century, that I bought from Steve at Gianna's so I'm pretty confident that the set-up is good.  Or at least was when I got it.  Everywhere else, the instrument has lovely resonance - or maybe it's sustain, i.e. it 'rings' after I lift the bow from the string - and there's just more character or dimension to the sound when I'm on the string.  But at the C note on the G string it's just dead.

My question; is it a common occurrence to have one frequency where a fiddle just doesn't want to resonate?  Or has something in the set-up on my fiddle gone out of whack?  I don't recall this happening from the get-go when I got the instrument, but I may have missed it.  I was so ecstatic to have a nice fiddle to play that I likely wouldn't have noticed anyway.

Is there any adjustment that a competent luthier could do to get all the notes to have a similar sustain or resonance?  Gets on my nerves to have this one note that I just can't seem to make ring.

Thanks

Brian

Poco50 - Posted - 05/16/2011:  19:08:22

My fiddle does the same thing Brian, I have a cheap fiddle to i kinda wrote it off to that at first. i started with black diamond strings and was going to string my fiddle left handed but was told not to because of the sound post and bass bar, so im learning right handed..i actually thought the black diamond strings sounded pretty good, it went down hill from there....i bought  a set of John Pearse fiddle strings and installed them and it sounded like i had a muted fiddle and some of the notes actually sounded more muted....so i played it that way for about 3 weeks or so and then ordered a set of John Pearse Artiste string and just got through puttin them on tonite....the projection is quite a bit better but i still have those dead or muted spots on the fret board like u are talking about.....so i figured it was just me and the way that i was bowing, then came on here and ur having the same problem....Im "really" interested seeing what others have to say about this topic....

Gary.....

Poco50 - Posted - 05/16/2011:  19:14:57

Shoot i forgot to say thst my friend has a late 19th century conservatory fiddle and has John Pearse Artiste strings on his fiddle and it belts the notes out like crazy.....but i did notice one thing playing his also, when i was playing his some of the notes sounds odd too, so i had him play the same the and the notes sounded the same from a distance 6 ft or so...so i was wondering is it just because the fiddle is close to our ears or is it actually dead spots....

Sorry bout the doulbe post

Gary...

mudbug - Posted - 05/17/2011:  01:52:27

I'm fairly new to fiddle and haven't played many,  and probably aren't discerning enough at this point,  but I've got a funny note in first position.  I don't know if it's due to soundpost or fingerboard issues,  but I remember reading how Fender basses in the 1960's were notorious for having dead notes.  Avoidance of those notes  gave bassist's their individual styles.  Kinda hard though on a fiddle to avoid a note in first position.

bj - Posted - 05/17/2011:  06:16:12

Did you try burping the bridge? Sometimes if the bridge feet aren't in full contact you get stuff like this happening, and bridges do shift over time.

Poco50 - Posted - 05/17/2011:  07:18:54

I knew it would be something simple........I gave my fiddle its evening bottle of warm milk, put it in the case, but forgot to burp it...not wonder it wouldnt give  me a nice clean note....this fiddle stuff is gettin easier every day....rofl...

Gary....

chippyvan - Posted - 05/17/2011:  08:15:13

Gary

 I have had some dead notes as well on my fiddles. Some more severe than others. One of my old fiddles had a real dead spot around C-C# on the A string.  I was helped alot by using different strings. I had so mess around with a few different brands but I found one or two brands that made it much better.  

woodwiz - Posted - 05/17/2011:  08:17:31

Are you sure you are playing in tune?  Not in tune with the tuner, but in tune with the fiddle?  When you play notes that are really in tune, the fiddle sings along.  When you are not in tune, the fiddle sounds deader, less resonant.

Try rolling your finger back and forth a little bit to see if there isn't a "live" spot really close by.  Might just be a matter of intonation.

Fiddles are often stronger on some notes than on others, but "dead" notes are pretty uncommon. The first thoughts that come to mind are intonation, fingerboard irregularity, and string problems.

Diane G - Posted - 05/17/2011:  15:54:05

Hi...the first thing I would do is to try a new string...a different brand. Try a better brand and not steel core but  maybe a rope core (braided) string or  a perlon (synthetic core).  Do you know if your fiddle is setup for steel or perlon strings..you might ask the lutheir or shop you brought if from.  You can order separate strings on several website.  The other thing to consider might be a "wolf" tone....a wolf tone can be strong enough to cancel out the C tone...leaving it flat.

Stay tuned. Diane

Brian J - Posted - 05/17/2011:  18:19:20

I did a bit more investigating and here's what I've found.  The lack of sustain happens on the C note - on the G string, on the A string and on the E string.  It's something about the frequency.  It's quite noticeable.  I think because the amplitude of the vibration is that much greater on the G string than the others, it is more noticeable to me there.  I can actually feel that the instrument isn't vibrating as it does for other notes. 

Although my intonation is good, I did as Michael suggested and rolled my noting finger back and forth a bit to see if the effect would disappear.  The effect occurs over a range above and below the C that I would normally play; perhaps 15 or 20 cents either way or so, diminishing the further from C I get.

I took out a magnifying glass to have a good look at the bridge feet and it did appear that the bridge may have had a backward lean a bit, so I dealt with that.  It may have helped some, but the effect is still quite noticeable. 

I've been trying Flexocors the past while so, to test out the string theory, I changed back to the Helicore heavies that I usually play.  The dead C is still there.

Not the end of the world, but I'd sure like to figure out what's happening.

mudbug - Posted - 05/18/2011:  01:48:23

Brian,  are there any other fiddlers or violinists or a string shop close by,  that you could have someone else play it to rule out the player ( you) as opposed to the instrument?

woodwiz - Posted - 05/18/2011:  09:16:46

If the C is "dead"on 3 strings, that's probably a resonance problem, and could yield to a sound post tweak, moving the chin rest, changing afterlength, or altering the basic body resonance by strategically adding or removing mass in different spots.

One of the hallmarks of a good violin is evenness of response, but even the best ones are a not perfectly even, IME.  They all seem to have notes that ring out louder than others. Setup can deal with most of that on a good fiddle; the player can deal with the rest.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 05/18/2011:  11:01:07

It's possible that it isn't so much that the C is a dead spot, but that the other ones are "live" spots.

I'm not joking.  By that I mean that the other notes are picking up sympathetic resonance from the other strings, but the C is not.

I think this is one of the reasons I don't like playing in the key of C.  The fingering isn't hard... but the fiddle just doesn't resonate like it does with the other keys.

The solution may be to do something to cut the ringiness... and moving away from solid steel core strings could do that.

Another thing might be to use something like those tube string protectors or those little rubber doughnuts that used to come with some strings.

You could cut a rubber band, loop it under the string on both sides of the bridge, tie it off, and cut off the excess- that would give you the equivalent of the rubber doughnuts.

hi2125 - Posted - 05/18/2011:  11:34:13

I have the same exact problem.  The 1st position C and C# on the G string have this deadening sound.  B and D are fine so as any notes on any other strings.  It's as if the entire violin vibrates with conflicting frequencies.  I changed the strings from Dominant to Vision Solo to no avail.  I will try Pirastro strings soon but I don't think it will fix it.  My violin teacher confirmed the problem is there.  He is also a luthier so he tried adjusting the bridge and sound post but that didn't fix it.  None of his violins have this problem.  He told me to be prepared to spend some money to get a decent violin.  I don't mind too much because this is a cheap student violin.  I just want to make sure I don't have this problem with my next violin.  Is this issue common with cheap student violins?   

chippyvan - Posted - 05/18/2011:  11:58:35

The first fiddle I bought had some wonderful resonance, especially when cross tuned. It sounded like it had built in echo. It sold me on that fiddle over the others in my price range. It had some real peaks in the response as well as some real dead spots.  Playing in AEAE was amazing. Playing in G, not as amazing.  I do think that your fiddle sound will make you prefer one key over others. 

Eventually I came to really dread the resonant notes and ended up selling that fiddle. I tried all kinds of strings, bridges and sound post moves but nothing helped that much.  I am sure a competent luthier could have made a difference, but I ended up getting a different fiddle rather than spend the money on that one.  (I do miss it sometimes)  

I was told that the sound it has was a characteristic of the top being thinned too much and that was the fate of many older fiddles that had been "improved" somewhere along the line.

Brian J - Posted - 05/18/2011:  17:30:48

Thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions. 

I wondered too, as fiddlepogo suggests, about sympathetic resonance with open strings as being limited for a C note as compared with other notes.  Certainly, the C and D are dissonant.  I'm not sure, but I don't think one can expect much sympathetic resonance between a C and either an open A or E.  That could account for some of what I'm sensing. 

It also seems like Michael is suggesting that there is generally some variation in resonance across frequencies on any given instrument.  That's what I kind of expected to hear when I first posted this question.  It sort-of makes sense that there might be certain frequencies, or harmonics of those frequencies, that are dampened by out-of-phase vibrations arising in the instrument.  Reflected vibrations must be generated all over the place inside a fiddle.

Luthiers are a little thin on the ground where I live, but perhaps I'll get down to Toronto one of these days, and have an expert give a listen and see if some adjustment would help.  I guess the trick would be to try and move the 'dead' spot to somewhere between two true notes, by adjusting the vibrating characteristics of the fiddle somehow.  Working on these things is a black art I think.  Eye of newt; that sort of thing.

Minim Miser - Posted - 05/24/2011:  16:08:48

I was reading some stuff on classical playing recently and I think it's well known in those circles that some places on the fingerboard are much more resonant than others. The C-C# region is particularly dead. You can usually hear enough resonance on either of these notes to check your intonation, but it's by no means as obvious as with other notes. It's all to do with the opportunities that other strings have to resonate (either their fundamental or any of their harmonics).

The most resonant notes tend to be G (on the D string), D (on the A string) and A (in the E string) because they are right next to an open string tuned an octave lower that just loves to resonate with the played note. Notice that C (on the G string) isn't as resonant because there's no lower string to vibrate. Another issue is that when fingering a string it's quite common to damp adjacent strings with the side of the finger. That stops them resonating. Generally it seems to be not too bad to damp the adjacent higher string, but touching the adjacent lower string can really deaden the tone.

BTW I also came across a really nice tone-improvement exercise that exploits these resonances. You start by plucking one of the really resonant fingered notes (like D on the A string) and listen for the ring after the note. Adjust the intonation to maximise the ring so you know you're playing exactly in tune. Then bow the note with short bows, lifting the bow after each note. Adjust the bow pressure/speed to maximise the ring as you lift the bow off the string. Once you've got that, play longer notes and try to get that ring sounding while you're actually bowing the note.

Once you've got the feel of it, try other notes. Then try maximising the resonance on every note as you play a tune. It realy made a huge difference to the tone I could produce inside about 10 minutes. A very neat little exercise.

faithwalk - Posted - 06/05/2011:  05:38:46

Other factors that can make a difference are:

Smaller or larger diameter sound post. They do come in different diameters.

Tighter fit post, or looser etc. can change how much it vibrates.

Aged wood sound post. Smells like graham crackers vs. newer wood sound post.

I've had fiddles that really changed with the time of year. I think it was the humidity level. Rather than dead notes, I had HOT notes pop out, especially going into Winter. Then it seemed to go through another thing in the Spring.

I totally understand the frustration. I fit a new sound post in my fiddle a few days ago. It was in too tight. It sounded kind of nice like a button box. I knew it was too tight so I shortened it a little. Now I've got a zezzle on the open D string, that I've never had before. I may put the old sound post back in which is dated from the 1950's and smells like graham crackers.... because it's old.

faithwalk - Posted - 06/05/2011:  08:15:57

Just thought of something else. To get more resonance on the C note, try a touch of vibrato on that note. It seems to help on my fiddle.  A lot of nice violins have wolf notes ... the player just learns what to do on those certain notes to give the best sound... amount of bow pressure, bow speed or what ever works. I don't think there's a fiddle out there that is perfect on every note. Some not very resonant violins may go dead as you get in upper positions on the G string. Then more resonant violins may have hot spots, wolf notes... Some student violins may sound pretty even in general, but may lack projection. If you like your violin other than that one note, experiment with vibrato and bow pressure. That C note on my fiddle vibrates but doesn't have the sustain that the G note on D string has. And it won't because there is no open C string.  The C note has growl though. It vibrates even more when adding a bit of vibrato or digging in a bit with my bow.

If you really want us to analyze it, post a little sound clip of it, and try different amounts of bow pressure. There isn't a perfect fiddle out there. Try to work with it. A lot of the sound is technique too. Keep us posted.

ScotsJim - Posted - 06/07/2011:  17:37:25

Interesting discussion. I've had a "muted" D note on the A string for years. Better with some strings but always there. But I've never heard it played by someone else. I'm told that sound from a fiddle will be better a few feet away form the instrument. And I must admit that amplified my fiddle sounds great in the monitors. So maybe hearing it "from a distance" tells a different story.  Jim

faithwalk - Posted - 06/08/2011:  07:53:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by ScotsJim

Interesting discussion. I've had a "muted" D note on the A string for years. Better with some strings but always there. But I've never heard it played by someone else. I'm told that sound from a fiddle will be better a few feet away form the instrument. And I must admit that amplified my fiddle sounds great in the monitors. So maybe hearing it "from a distance" tells a different story.  Jim

---

Jim,

Record your playing from 10 ft. away. See if that D note sounds muted or not from that distance.  What you hear in your ear isn't what is hear further away. It's a good test to do, so you know what other people are hearing. It may surprise you!

tarheel - Posted - 06/14/2011:  20:34:44

HITTING THE NOTES IN c IS HARD FOR BEGINNERS,BUT THAT C NOTE ON THE G STRING SHOULD BE THE PRETTIEST NOTE ON THE FIDDLE!  keep at it and make sure you are in tune, tuck your arm in and pay attention to your position

3fiddles - Posted - 06/18/2011:  20:29:08

My fiddle sounds totally different when i hear the recorded version. the ear itself is a tricky instrument...and a mind is a terrible thing to haste.....