Ivan Rorick - Posted - 03/09/2011:  21:21:37

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Could someone provide me with an easy to understand explanation of the differences between these three time signatures (2/4, 4/4, and 2/2)? They sound the same to my untrained ears...

My knowledge of theory is very limited.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/10/2011:  02:24:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ivan Rorick

They sound the same to my untrained ears...

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You have good ears. They sound the same, because there isn't any difference in sound.

The same fiddle tune can generally be written in any of those, and it won't affect the actual feel. Why you would choose one over the other has to do with readability, and a certain amount of psychology.

mudbug - Posted - 03/10/2011:  02:28:20

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Hey, Ivan! Yeah, it can get a little confusing. Let me see if I can explain it.

When I think of 2/2, I think of Sousa Marches. Very Strong. Counted 1-2, 1-2, Left-Right, Left Right, " I don't know , but I been told..."

When I think of 2/4, I think of early New Orleans or Dixieland jazz.. Upbeat and swinging. Counted 1-and-2-and, 1-and 2-and, "Oh, When the Saints...'

Things can get complicated, because two different transcribers could write out the same tune in either time signature. Quarter notes in 2/4 will be written as eighth notes in 2/2. As 32nd and 64th notes are hard to read in 2/4, music with a lot of notes might more easily be read in 2/4.

4/4 is a little smoother, and easier to dance to, for the uninitiated, so jazz changed in the 1930's to mostly 4/4. That's also when the double bass started being used as opposed to the tuba ( it's hard to blow 4 beats to the bar ( anouther word for measure). Count 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, think "String of Pearls" or most Country Western tunes. You could also count 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and, or 1-e-an-a-2-e-an-a-3-e-an-a-4-e-an-a, but they would be counted in the same time frame, so you count faster, all depending if you want to imply guarter notes, eighth notes or sixteenth notes.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/10/2011:  06:04:43

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Mudbug has a good explanation!

Theoretically, the top number tells you the number of beats, pulses, felt/ written per measure... in a march or something fast and driving, you'd probaly see a 2 up there.

The bottom number means what kind of note carries the beat, or pulse that you feel. Most of the time it's a quarter note, which is a black note without a flag on the stem... that's represented by the number 4. Sometimes, because composers try to configure the music they're writing to make it the most logical way to get it on paper, another type of note would get the beat... so 2 means the half note, the white note with a stem... takes the beat instead of the quarter note. In that situation all the notes shift their timing, and the quarter notes start behaving as eight notes, eight notes as sixteenth, whole as half, etc. to accommodate the time signature the composer has chosen.

In 4/4 time.... there are 4 beats that repeat over and over, so 4 beats to a measure... this might be kinda subjective, since the three is a strong pulse too, and some might hear it strong enough to think of things in 2/4 time. Anyway, the 4/4 means it's written so that 4 beats fall into each measure, and the quarter note takes the beat.

Like Mudbug said... if you were marching, and you counted a strong pulse for each foot, it would sound like 2/2 or 2/4 time. If you walked more relaxed, and you just counted a pulse for everytime your left foot hit, it would have a sound more like a 4/4 tune... your right foot would also be a pulse, but the milder pulse that the 3 beat gets in 4/4 time. Just in a nutshell.

If you're playing country or old time you wouldn't really need this info so much... I guess if you've got written out music you do need it...

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Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 03/10/2011 06:06:40

hanknc - Posted - 03/10/2011:  06:23:34

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I like alaskafiddler's explanation.

cstewart - Posted - 03/10/2011:  06:50:01

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I asked my teacher about the difference between 4/4 and 2/4. He said that in 2/4 time the accent is on beats 1 & 2. In 4/4 time the accent is on beats 1&3 but with more stress on 1.
2/4 - 1 + 2 +
4/4 - 1 2 3 4

Learner - Posted - 03/10/2011:  07:21:30

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quote:

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Originally posted by cstewart

I asked my teacher about the difference between 4/4 and 2/4. He said that in 2/4 time the accent is on beats 1 & 2. In 4/4 time the accent is on beats 1&3 but with more stress on 1.
2/4 - 1 + 2 +
4/4 - 1 2 3 4

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From my limited experience, starting with playing a little trumpet in elementary school, I have to agree with this. 2/4 time definitely has a different "feel" than 4/4 time.

To me it's like the difference between up bowing and downbowing in fiddle music. Most people play a downbow stroke with slightly more emphasis than an upbow, which helps "drive" the rhythm. Reversing the strokes in a fiddle tune can give it a weird sort of cadence.

Similarly, 2/4 "drives" the rhythm slightyly differently than 4/4. When I play 2/4, I tap out only 2 beats per measure with my foot.

Frank

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Edited by - Learner on 03/10/2011 07:22:44

Learner - Posted - 03/10/2011:  07:31:58

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2/2 and 2/4 will basically sound the same, as I understand it. All that is changing is the value of the beat note, a half-note versus a quarter-note. 2/2 tends to be used for fast orchestral music (and some marches) where it simplifies the writing of the music. Mudbug's explanation about this was very good.

Frank

mswlogo - Posted - 03/10/2011:  12:37:32

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I consider them the same but they may be hinting at what beats to emphasize (in some cases).

Also sometimes you can get a tune in 4/4 that is mostly written say as quarter notes or a 2/4 version written as 1/8 notes. In this cases it's exactly the same.

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Edited by - mswlogo on 03/10/2011 12:39:14

Fiddler - Posted - 03/12/2011:  05:42:10

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Where were you guys 50 years ago when I was struggling through hours of piano lessons!!! I got what the theory or what the "fraction" meant, but how to interpret this into playing was a pure mystery --- until I starting playing fiddle.

Kudos to mudbug and groundhogpeggy for some great explanations!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/12/2011:  08:04:22

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50 years ago I was 7 years old and probably couldn't have helped you any! Glad to be of help in now, though!

mudbug - Posted - 03/12/2011:  13:20:04

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Thankyou, Fiddler! Glad it helped.

Fiddler - Posted - 03/12/2011:  16:04:39

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quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

50 years ago I was 7 years old and probably couldn't have helped you any! Glad to be of help in now, though!

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I was 7 years old then, too. I guess my career as a concert pianist (which my Mom really wanted!) was never in the cards. Oh, well, better late than never.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/12/2011:  20:13:44

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Fiddle is so much better than piano!

Fiddledroid - Posted - 03/17/2011:  20:31:26

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Instead of explaining each one, I'll explain how to "read" different time signatures.

The top number represents the number of beats per measure, while the bottom number represents the note value that gets the beat. For instance, in 4/4, there are 4 beats per measure, and the quarter note gets the beat. in 2/4 there are two beats in each measure, and the quarter note gets the beat.

So, a time signature such as 6/8 (common in a lot of "jig" tunes") there are 6 beats in each measure, and the eighth note gets the beat. 2/2 would be two beats per measure, and the half note gets the beat. And so on and so forth.

Also, you subdivide the beats accordingly.

In 4/4 you have one quarter note per beat, two eighths per beat, four sixteenths, etc. In 2/2, it would be one half note per beat, two quarters per beat, four eighths per beat, eight sixteenths..........You get the idea!

Hope this helps!

:D

Ivan Rorick - Posted - 03/18/2011:  02:24:37

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Thanks for your advice everyone, especially Mudbug! Good stuff!

mudbug - Posted - 03/18/2011:  04:23:17

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You're welcome, Ivan!

VivianW - Posted - 03/18/2011:  13:33:59

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The main difference between 2/4 and 2/2 is in the convenience of writing them, as well as the conventional ways of writing different kinds of tunes.

Polkas are usually written in 2/4.
Reels can be written in either 2/4 or 2/2. 2/2 is the same as what is called "cut time", indicated by a C with a slash through it. A reeI written in 2/4 will probably have a lot of sixteenth notes. The same tune written in cut time will be played exactly the same way, but will indicate those notes with eighth notes instead, which saves ink and prevents eye-strain.

4/4 time is sometimes indicated with a C (no slash). I've seen schottisches written in that time signature; I even write them that way myself sometimes, but I think it's not correct - they should be cut time. Or maybe not; after all there is an accent on beats 2 and 4. Oh well......