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FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/01/2008: 23:59:29
(edit - This first draft was deleted when I uploaded the new one below.)
Hi all,
I've been working on understanding modes and chords better. Got to goofing around with the circle of 5ths and editing my tunelist / cheatsheet. On the way to having something small and handy in my pocket, I came up with the table shown here. It doesn't have all the keys. For most of my jamming, all I really need is a cheatsheet for G, D, A, and a C from time to time. In case I stumble into a bluegrass jam, I guess the info for F and Bb might come in handy. :-)
But, here's my question... I'd love some error checking on this. If anyone spots something that's incorrect, I'd like to know. Or, if there's a glaring omission, too.
For you self-teaching types, I found this to be a good exercise towards getting this info into my head. ie, drawing my own circle of 5ths without looking at another source. Beyond the basic info, I wandered into trying to figure out the dorians and mixolydian chords, so I included that in my 'rectangle'. It all makes sense when I read about it, but I'm trying to understand it better in application. There's been some really good explanations in previous threads here and I found that very helpful.
It's in JPG format here, but it will be in PDF on my one page tunelist, available at my blog address below in a few days.
Thanks in advance.
2008!
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
Edited by - OTJunky on 05/30/2008 17:36:34
ladymuse - Posted - 01/02/2008: 03:57:23
OOH Kitchy and valuable!!!!!
Looks great to me! Mind if I print it?
magnuscanis - Posted - 01/02/2008: 05:23:56
Looks good to me.
The only thing I'm not sure about is that you seem to be applying the mode names inconsistently. For the mixolydian mode, it appears that you're giving the common chords and the key signature for the mixolydian mode built on the same tone as the major (e.g. for the C row it's C mixolydian which, as you say, has 1 flat and would commonly be found with the chords C (not so sure about Cm, but I'll take your word for it) and Bb). When it comes to the dorian, the chords you've given are the ones for the dorian mode with the same notes as the corresponding ionian/major scale and a tone centre one tone higher (e.g. on the C row, Dm and C would be chords for D dorian, which has the same notes as C major but centred around D instead of C).
To my mind it would be clearer to go for one of those two approaches and apply it consistently. It probably doesn't make too much difference which one you go for, although I'd probably incline towards keeping the tone centre fixed on each row (e.g. the dorian on the C row would be C dorian, with chords Cm and Bb - incidentally, I can't see any particular reason why it should be C, Bb since all the others are listed as Im, VII and the dorian is an essentially minor mode).
- Magnus
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/02/2008: 07:45:18
Thanks Magnus.
Yeah, whoops, I typo'd that C instead of a C minor in the Bb row.
The minors for the mixolydians are based on what I saw in the Fiddler's Fakebook, mostly looking at the old timey tunes. Some had majors, some had minor chords as alternates. So, I thought I'd include that in the chart.
I'm drafting another up, with the number of sharps or flats consistent across rows, but putting the name of the key in a cell. We'll see how that goes.
Hey, don't anyone print it until I work it out better. Or, make it your own, but fix it up first. :-)
2008!
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
fiddlerJ - Posted - 01/02/2008: 12:19:56
very good Terri, my piano/theory teacher would be proud. :)
OTJunky - Posted - 01/02/2008: 13:30:48
Well - I'm a bit confused I guess....
Remembering back to my rhythm guitar days, the chords I used to back up a Mixolydian mode tune in A were typically A-major, G-major and E (major or 7th) depending on your mode. These are the chords that Bluegrass players use for Old Joe Clark for example.
Similarly, "Paddy on the Turnpike" which is in G Mixolydian is typically backed up using G-major, F-major and D (major or 7th).
I don't think minor chords are typically used when backing up tunes in Mixolydian mode.
Similarly I think the V chord is sometimes used when backing up Dorian mode tunes - just on the "turn around" at the end - though I guess an argument could be made that if this is done, you're briefy modulating to another mode.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/04/2008: 00:47:01
Edit - There's a better version of this chart further down the thread...
]-link removed- it turned into an ad for web hosting-
(The display here is not good, but here's a larger view in the photo section of my Fiddle Hangout homepage. Or, just click this link-
-link removed- it turned into an ad for web hosting-
OK, this is what I've got so far. I see the pattern and, thanks to Wiki and the FiddleHangout, I've got a better grasp on what makes a mode a mode.
I used the # of accidentals to determine what's in the rows. ie, all the modes with 1 # run across the same row. Easy enough to find a particular mode by key in the associated column from the way it's labeled. But, also, notice how each start note gravitates up diagonally in this arrangement?
One of the last places that I looked was in the Fiddler's Fakebook, and don't you know it, there's a similar, simpler, chart there.
Like I said, it was a good learning experience. Fine by me if anyone want's to copy it.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
Edited by - FiddleJammer on 01/07/2009 14:23:14
mikey - Posted - 01/04/2008: 08:33:53
I had a similar learning experience some years ago by trying to sort these things out on paper, but at the end of the day i never really made a chart that was useful or any more useful than ones already available in books or internet sites. The Circle of Fifths has long been memorized and I can recall any of the sharps/flats or minors by the simple rhymes that children learn in music class.
In practical terms, half the Key signatures of no use at all other than theory. There are a few chord charts that come in handy for discussions of new chords , but in all practical purposes I've never needed to know what Mode is being used. If I know what Key the tune is in, I can play it, both chords or melody, or by ear or sheet music. I do however carry a copy of a chord chart with me for guitar and mandolin, but I've cropped away the non-essential stuff and keep it basic with principle chords, minors, and 7ths.
Modes are a great theory discussion, or you write music for multi instruments, or if you need to pass a music exam...but the average jam with your buddies? no place for it.
MIKEY
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/04/2008: 08:53:08
From time to time, I feel like I could help some novice chord-ers if I understood better about chord patterns. Myself included in that group when I'm searching for chords on the fiddle. Also, I get asked about what makes a tune modal, and I'm scratching for a better answer than "it sounds sad and wailing". :-) If I can point to a piece of paper and describe how the modes are derived, the information might come across more clearly.
I hear you about theory not being much during a jam. It's most helpful, I reckon, after the fact to describe what has happened.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
DougD - Posted - 01/04/2008: 10:37:52
Thanks for posting this Terri, it certainly got me thinking. I liked your first chart better, with the improvements Magnus suggested. Glad you got rid of the minors in mixolydian, I don't think they're common (Glancing through the "Fakebook" I found only one setting with a minor, and I'm not sure its correct). I think its easier to see all the modes that start on the same note together, because they're really related scales, not key signatures. I agree with OTJ that common chords would also include a V or V7 in Mixolydian and Dorian. (Wonder why Old Joe Clark is not described as mixolydian in the "Fakebook"?) The V chord in both those modes should be minor, but a major is usually played. When we play "G" in A mixolydian, BTW, we're playing the relative major of that minor V, whatever that means. Also the IV chord is handy, like in "June Apple."
I liked this quote from the "Fiddler's Fakebook": "There are many tunes which show a lack of commitment to a single mode. Although faithful to a single tonic they will flirt with other scales." Very romantic, but I think there are very few American old time tunes that are truly mixolydian, for example. Traditional guitar players, at least southern ones, do fine with the I-V-I cadence, but "other" chords can be a problem. Lots of times a IV was the limit, and minor chords are rare, with majors substituted. I've noticed that as more people learn from books, obviously written by folks who read and write music, the chords are "corrected" or cleaned up to be theoretically right but maybe not what was traditionally played.
Something to remember about the "Fiddler's Fakebook" is that its based on notations from the "real" world or at least the recorded world. Descriptive rather than prescriptive I guess. But there can be errors in the notation from missing something in the listening, or the recording may have included something other people might not consider "correct" to begin with.
Edited by - DougD on 01/04/2008 10:42:26
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/04/2008: 16:46:32
Hey, thanks Doug. That is very helpful information. I'll play around with the chart some more.
Interesting about Old Joe Clark, though, eh? The G# is flatted throughout, except for the last measures of the A and B part. And, there's a comment to the effect that G could be flatted, with an alternate G chord substituted for the E. Makes me think I should start a thread about errata and idiosyncrasies in the commonly used tunebooks. :-)
Now see, with my handy-dandy chart and the time I've put my brain into it, I can actually understand this conversation about Old Joe Clark. Previously, I was at a disadvantage not understanding how the common chords came about.
10 years of piano lessons in the 1960's and I'm finding this stuff out now!
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/04/2008: 23:03:53
Link- http://www.hangoutstorage.com/fiddl...20412008.jpg
Okeedokee. I'm thinking this is close to good. :-)
I took some advice from here-
http://www.mandolincafe.com/niles2.htmlAs well as Doug's, Magnus's, and OTJ's insights. Thanks, guys!
So much for my tiny cheat-sheet. No, but, I could just take the more commonly used modes and shrink it down, I know.
Hey, I think I'll actually go play my fiddle for awhile now.
Cheers,
Terri
[Edited to correct links - Brad]tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
Edited by - BanjoBrad on 01/09/2009 14:05:38
rastewart - Posted - 01/18/2008: 18:16:06
Thanks, Terri (belatedly), for posting this and for all your hard work on it. I'm printing it out for the Struggling Fiddler's Library and will see what I can make of it.
Rich
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/18/2008: 20:45:25
Hey, thanks for the feedback, Rich. I hope it's accurate enough for prime time. Comments and corrections always welcomed.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
lucky - Posted - 01/07/2009: 16:48:12
I'm getting a page error on the link.
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/07/2009: 19:03:59
quote:
Originally posted by lucky
I'm getting a page error on the link.
Yes, I know, me too. That's why the thread started up because I was deleting bad links. If you go directly to my FH homepage and look at the photos, you'll see the graphic directly. In the meantime, I noted the errors in the web troubleshooting section.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
