Dock Jekel - Posted - 01/06/2011:  14:58:42

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I know there are historical differences in the way fiddlers sound all over the USA. I'm somewhat familiar with the way Southern Appalachian fiddling sounds, of say,... North Carolina. I would have a tricky time describing how it sounds different though than somewhere else, perhaps. Texas swing style is easy to recognize. But, how does an experienced ear distinguish Midwestern fiddling??? Without regard to the different repetoires, somebody out there, please, explain to me, how fiddlers from different regions sound different. Generallities of course! Dock

Swing - Posted - 01/06/2011:  15:55:50

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No that I can reply to the topic, but I find the question really interesting...

Play Happy

ucalldatmusic? - Posted - 01/06/2011:  15:58:44

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While I am a musician that grew up in Michigan, I would by no means consider myself any kind of an expert on this subject. But my personal observations over more than 30 years around fiddlers is, I don't hear any distinct style. We tend to borrow from many of the well known styles. There is a strong tradition of playing music that folks can dance to. But we make an attempt at almost any kind of style and repertoire.
While not necessarily a book about the sound or style of mid-west fiddlers, this book has a lot of information that rings true to about the neighborhood that I grew up in. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and would recommend it to anyone with an interest in the subject.
amazon.com/Farmhouse-Fiddlers-...883953065
I am interested in what others think of the question of mid-west style.

Dock Jekel - Posted - 01/06/2011:  16:44:21

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One of my favorite fiddlers, Billy Mathews, I have heard refered to as a Midwestern style fiddler. Why?

VivianW - Posted - 01/06/2011:  17:12:16

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A good place to start for listening to Midwestern fiddlers (Indiana & Illinois) is at drdosido.net/

OTJunky - Posted - 01/06/2011:  17:18:45

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dock Jekel

One of my favorite fiddlers, Billy Mathews, I have heard refered to as a Midwestern style fiddler. Why?

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Because he lives in the "Midwest"?..

Seriously though, you're asking a lot here. Missouri alone has at least three distinct fiddling styles - "Ozark", "Little Dixie", and "Missouri Valley". You can read about them at Charlie Walden's site

missourifiddling.com/MO_FID_TRADITIONS.htm

and I think we have a "Missouri Fiddling" thread from the earlier days of the FHO.

There's an entire book about Illinois fiddling traditions - "Dear Old Illinois".

Jeff Titon has written an entire book on Kentucky fiddling traditions that's available on Amazon.

Several authors, Miles Krassen and Alan Kaufman, have written books about Appalachian fiddling traditions and how to play one or more of them.

Dave Reiner's book, "Old Time Fiddling Across America", is probably the best source for a much broader view of American old time fiddling.

In Texas we have an old time fiddling tradition that existed prior to the rise of Western Swing, and the more modern "Texas Contest Style" that began it's evolution probably in the 40's.

Probably similar stories exist in many states. We haven't even mentioned the early Atlanta contest style that generated players like McMichen and Stokes.

Voyager Records has done a remarkable job and a remarkable service to us all by documenting and recording a marvelous collection of fiddlers from the Northwest - though their reach is broader than that. You can access those materials here.

VoyagerRecords.com

And, of course, we have the Berea College collection, the Lyons College collection (Arkansas Ozarks) and the FieldRecorders collection - to name just a few more.

I don't even know if it makes sense to try and describe all this using the written word. If you want to understand the essence of the "Round Peak" style from North Carolina just go to Amazon or YouTube and listen to snippets from Tommy Jarrell's playing.

If you want to understand the "Missouri Valley" style there are videos of Cyril Stinnett available on YouTube and audio recordings of him as well - probably American's best ever "hornpipe" fiddler.

My own view of "Midwestern Fiddling" is mostly derived from the playing of Bob Walters, Cyril Stinnett and Dwight Lamb. But I'm no expert and am probably myopic in this regard.

FHO member, Chirps Smith, qualifies as an expert as does FHO member, Charley Walden. who played with some of the greats.

So, I could go on and on - but I only went on this long to illustrated the magnitude of the problem. I suppose it might be worthwhile for a professional folklorist to try to document and analyze the whole thing. But for most of us fiddlers the thing to do is to just listen long enough until you find sounds that you like, the try and make those sounds yourself... Any of us will be lucky to get good at just one of these kinds of fiddling...

Oh, I forgot to mention New England and Down East fiddling.

Sigh...

--OTJ

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Edited by - OTJunky on 01/07/2011 04:03:21

wooliver - Posted - 01/06/2011:  17:21:51

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Touch on my username, then the video tab to find the best example of Missouri river valley style. Then google Bob Walters & Dwight Lamb. Western side of midwest, but I'm sure you'll hear difference, between this style, compared to Appalachian, or round peak. First time I heard Cyril, I figured it was virtually impossible to play.

bsed - Posted - 01/06/2011:  17:42:32

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While not a complete answer, I'd say Midwestern fiddling has these qualities:
1. It's ethnic (Polish, German, Norweigian, French influences. You name it!)

2. You learn there are riffs or bowing patterns that are common to many of the tunes that you won't often find in, say, southern tunes.

3. A lot of the tunes are generally notier. Listen to Cyril Stinnett or Bob Walters.

4. There are different types of tunes, like hornpipes, jigs (some "jigs" in 4/4 time).

OTJunky - Posted - 01/06/2011:  17:50:34

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quote:

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Originally posted by bsed

While not a complete answer, I'd say Midwestern fiddling has these qualities:
1. It's ethnic (Polish, German, Norweigian, French influences. You name it!)

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How about "American" influences...

--OTJ

RobBob - Posted - 01/06/2011:  18:08:54

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I prefer the term, "central American" fiddlers since they don't get to the left or right of the country. That makes Matthews and anyone in those land locked states also mid-western if you must use that term.

Dock Jekel - Posted - 01/06/2011:  18:54:28

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Seems like bsed is getting close to an understandable description of Midwestern fiddling. I've been trying to learn Billy Mathews version of "Ducks on the Millpond" as posted on his website. It is VERY notey!

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Edited by - Dock Jekel on 01/06/2011 18:55:47

Dock Jekel - Posted - 01/06/2011:  19:00:15

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OT Junky. Thanks for all the references! This could quickly get on the scholarly side, and way over my head! The plot has definately thickened!

tiquose - Posted - 01/06/2011:  20:22:20

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Vivian Williams, at Voyager Records, seems to suggest that one of the earliest roots of NW fiddling was Missouri, being the start of the Oregon Trail.

And in the regional classifications of Voyager Records, you'll read: Southeastern U.S. and Missouri - The fiddle styles of Southeast U.S. are perhaps the best known popularly as they have had much more popular exposure than other traditional U. S. fiddle styles. Many younger generation old time musicians emulate this style. We are including "Missouri" style fiddling in this category as it has much in common with Southeast fiddling. Artists in this category include: Gid Tanner & His Skillet Lickers, Jim Herd, Howard Marshall, Pete McMahan, John White, John Williams, Lee Stripling, Leroy Canaday, Billy Lee, Kerry & Sheila Blech, Allen Hart, and Howie & Lori Meltzer.

Vivian Williams (vivianw), Howard Marshall (timberhill) and Chirps Smith (Midwest Fiddler) are FHO members and all very knowledgeable on this topic. I hope they chime in. I will prod Rusty Marshall as he doesn't frequent these parts much.

eric marten - Posted - 01/07/2011:  04:44:42

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Specifically mentioning Midwestern i.e., Missouri, fiddling, there is a young man who has had a few of his performances from Youtube posted on this website, by the name of Roger Netherton. It is so nice to hear such a young person carrying on the tradition, with that smooth, relaxed Missouri sound. Do a search of this excellent proponent of Missouri fiddling.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/07/2011:  06:02:01

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This is an interesting question... there's a guy on youtube from Michigan who plays the old tunes a lot and I love to hear his playing... his talking also... he has a very distinct Michigan accent in his talking, and I "think" I hear that in his playing too. Can't remember his name, but if you look up Flop Eared Mule... there's only two or three fiddle youtubes of that I think... Rex McGee is there and also this Michigan feller.

As far as the Jeff Tilton book on KY... I've heard it mentioned many times, but have never seen it (some day if I ever get time...) ... but I'd be curious to see what somebody found studying the fiddling styles of KY, because the state has a lot of different cultures within it... the Southeastern coal fields evern have a lot of variation in culture... where we lived, down on the TN line, is pretty different than on up a few counties... and then when you get to the part where one side of my family comes from, up in Lewis County, you get a much more West Va kinda culture, really.... then up here where we are it barely seems like Kentucky at all... just generic Americana... then go toward Lousiville and that's all different... central KY around UK, Lexington, Richmond is different... not to mention out in Western Kentucky where the thumbpickers are... and it just gets very southern, yet you're getting really close to Missouri out that way... so... I'm wondering how many styles might be in this state or some other states that have a lot of culture variations within the same state... what defines the fiddling then? But a bigger region, say midwest... don't know how large an area would really do things, say things, hear things in the same way.

Anyway, the feller from Michigan who plays many tunes, Flop Eared Mule for one... is very good, and maybe that's at least one style of midwest playing... or possibly Great Lakes playing or something. Same tunes, but sound like the way he talks, to me!

EDIT had to look up that youtube... here's the flop eared mule: youtube.com/watch?v=XXAUp1HoNWM

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Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 01/07/2011 06:05:47

DougD - Posted - 01/07/2011:  06:43:03

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Peggy, you can get a taste of "Old Time Kentucky Fiddle Tunes" here: books.google.com/books?id=mmbq...q&f=false How big a taste apparently depends on how often you look through it, but you can get an idea. He distinguishes melody types that are more or less common in three regions of the state, much as you have. Some people have referred to these distinctions as styles, but the book is really about fiddle tunes.

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Edited by - DougD on 01/07/2011 06:46:07

coelhoe - Posted - 01/07/2011:  07:37:51

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You can get Titon's book on Kentucky fiddling through your local library by inter-library loan. I've had it ordered twice for me over the last few years.

As to "Mid-West" fiddling, I think the primary problem is one of geographical definition: where exactly do you place the region identified by those terms? In Idaho folks talked about Indiana and Illinois as "back east." From NYC the same region is often called "out west." I like to think in either historical terms like "The Old Northwest," or in relation to historically significant geography like the Ohio River Valley, or the Ozarks, or the central high plains, or the inter-mountain Rockies, or the Pacific northwest, and there is a distinct "northern tier" pattern of culture forms moving westward along the Canadian border from the Great Lakes all the way to the Pacific.

To my mind, the term "Mid West" is far too vague to have any real use.

There are some man-made features that can define an area as well, for example the Union Pacific line from Omaha to Salt Lake as a culture region, the Oregon Trail, and other historic routes of population movement such as the Bozeman, Chisholm or Cherokee Trails. If you draw lines from Regina to Winnepeg and then to Witchita and west to St. George and north again to Regina you can define a culture region that is in some sense "mid-" west though I would rather think of it as the Plains, an area with immigration largely from central and northern Europe. Wyoming , and eastern Montana, on the other hand, are more similar to West Virginia in that a very diverse ethnic population was drawn in before WW1 by the Union Pacific because of the mining industry, mostly underground coal mines. Until recently, the newspapers in Sheridan twice a year ran double issues completely in Polish at Easter and Christmas. The largest outdoor expenditure recently for recreation by county commissioners in Rock Springs was for a dozen clay bocce ball courts demanded by the Italian population.

How this affected dance music is complex but it seems that community dances organized around the one common dance form that all European cultures shared, and that is the polka. Many different styles with some historical oddities, such as where the polka played by railroad workers from New Mexico was most similar to that played by miners from Serbia. Go figure. How fiddlers kept from going musically bonkers in such an environment in anyone's guess. But by WW2 there was a real leveling of repertoire as the most common forms were maintained and more parochial ones lost.

And there is so much more to all this. Take for example the Mennonite string bands in Mound Ridge, Kansas, that play a typical dance repertoire though dancing is not allowed by their beliefs. Or the music on the various Reservations in this area which is also complicated by non-Native influences, for example the fiddle and CW bands at the Turtle Mountain Reservation in North Dakota with Metis and Nashville influences.

Midwest_Fiddler - Posted - 01/07/2011:  08:20:50

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Howdy all. I feel that the term encompasses many styles of fiddling out here in the "Heartland". Midwestern styles are influenced by the migration patterns. Illinois was settled from the bottom up mainly. Early settlers, such as my ancestors, came down the OH River. My Smiths came from NY and settled in Jefferson Co. and my grandmother's family, Milburns, came from SC/TN, through southern IN and into Jefferson Co. None of my ancestors were musical that I know of, but, had thery been they would have brought different musical styles I imagine. Because the "frontier" was settled by folks from all over- south, north, different countries, etc.- I feel the different styles are are all represented and probably blended in various ways.
Folks have already mentioned lots of good Midwestern fiddlers. I would the following if you can find them (they were LPs but may be out in CD or online somewhere): Old Time Fiddler's Repertory recordings, Now That's a Good Tune, I'm Old but I'm Awfully Tough (these three came out of MO and represent MO, Ozarks, and perhaps IL/IN/IA etc. too), For IN, look for John Summers, Lotus Dickey, and Paul Tyler (Dr. Dosido). Paul is a fine fiddler and a folklorist with extensive well-documented knowledge on the subject - unlike my general gut feelings. The Upper Midwest seems to retain much more of the ethnic background- Swedish, Norwegian, German, Native Peoples, etc. Listen to Leonard Finseth, Leizime Brusoe (winner of the 1926 fiddle contest in Chicago), Otto Rindlisbacher, the Foot-Notes, Leroy Larsen's band, Jasper Bisbee from MI, etc. Also check out a film called Medicine Fiddle. Also fiddlers from central Canada- Calvin Vollrath, Metis fiddler John Arcand, April Verch, etc.
Generally speaking I think along the lines that others have mentioned- notier, melodic, more variety of key & time signatures and more dance types. Of course this all has many more exceptions than rules. Think of WV fiddlers- Melvin Wine, Burl Hammons, etc.- that conjurs up one idea. Then listen to Clark Kessinger- that's a bit different. That's how it is out here in the great Heartland, or, as the "coasters" say, "The Fly Over Zone".
Good luck on your search. I hope you enjoyed my ramblings.
Chirps

Midwest_Fiddler - Posted - 01/07/2011:  08:27:39

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I forgot to mention it but if you scroll down this forum a bit you'll see one called "Chirps Videos". There is a link there that takes to some video of my playing. Also there are some audio selections at my home page. Just in case you might want ot hear my style.
Chirps (Midwest_Fiddler)

Dock Jekel - Posted - 01/07/2011:  08:28:38

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Sounds like it is hard to make generalizations! I couldn't. I do know, that I know almost nothing about the different fiddle "styles" around the country. Though, I am curious to get a basic understanding.

Paul Gifford - Posted - 01/07/2011:  08:36:05

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Here's my two cents.

I agree with Dennis that "Midwestern" is so broad as to be meaningless. Better to consider the region in terms of historic settlement patterns. I'm pretty familiar with fiddling in Michigan, having been around it for many years, played with many musicians, involved in organizing associations, etc.

It's hard to make strict, fixed boundaries. But, taking the Old Northwest states (Ohio, MIchigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Minnesota), and adding Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, the Dakotas, you get the "Midwest." But obviusly, as anyone can tell from hearing people's accents, there is difference from North to South in this region. This is no surprise, and it's no surprise that Missouri may have three regions, simply because of th original settlement patterns.

People from New York State, coming through the Erie Canal and Lake Erie, settled in the northern tier of Ohio, the Lower Peninsula of Michigan, southern Wisconsin, northern Illinois, and much of Iowa. Pennsylvanians went to central Ohio, northern Indiana, Illinois. Virginians (and West Virginians) settled in eastern and southern Ohio. Kentuckians settled in much of Indiana, in southern Illinois, in Missouri. This is a general pattern, but you get the idea. The further West you go, the more the population got jumbled, but still the pattern remains. Then 19th-century emigration from Europe to the region brings in another element. In some areas, especially in the western and northern parts of the region (parts of Wisconsin, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Iowa, MIchigan, etc.), they were the dominant settlers. Germans were heavy in many areas, Scandinavians in others, British in others, etc.

But, curiously, although many settlers came from (West) Virginia and Kentucky, early accounts (that is, 1800-1860---and I've got several hundred pages) don't mention banjos, This means that whites in the Appalachian area adopted the banjo from slave musicians AFTER most of the migration to Ohio and Indiana and Illinois (1800-1850). Slave musicians, of course, never went to the Midwest (Missouri being an exception; it should probably not be considered "Midwestern" in the same way as the Old Northwest). Black musicians, however, did settle in towns and cities.

Anyway, my feeling is that one style starts in western New York and Pennsylvania (probably northwestern PA), goes through northern OH, the Lower Peninsula of Michigan, northern or northwestern Indiana, northern Illinois, Wisconsin; te western boundaries are a little unclear, but it certainly includes Iowa and it fades into Minnesota and the Dakotas. The characteristics would include influences from quadrille bands (such as the second fiddle), contra dances, especialy Money Musk and the Opera Reel, the Fireman's Dance, {Hammeed ] dulcimers were manufactured in this region in the mid-19th century and distinctively used as a seconding instrument with the fiddle. Tunes for square dances used a mix of tunes in 2/4 and 6/8; many of the 6/8 tunes are nameless and in two keys (like G & D). Cross-tuning was unknown. I could probably mention some other characteristics.

Further north of this region, in areas with a lot of Indians and Metis, such as the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, northern Wisconsin, Minnesota, and North Dakota, and where there was early settlement of French-Canadians, the core early style would be French-Canadian. Some characteristics include tunes with extra beats.

In th region north of the Ohio River settled predominantly by people from West Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennessee----southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois---it seems to be partly an extension of the styles in the neighboring states, plus influences from the north. There seem to be characteristic tunes -- "Birdie" in Ohio, "Sugar in My COffee," "Hell Along the Wabsh," etc. "Dear Old Illinois" seems to indicate a mix of these influences. It also documents the presence of some cross-tuning.

In some areas, like Wisconsin, polkas seem to have pushed square dance music out of the way. See Jim Leary's book "Polkabilly." However, in the past, I see lots of evidence to show that Germans adopted square dance music there. In northeastern Michigan, for example, a lot of Polish immigrant musicians were square dance fiddlers.

Then there might be characteristics valid for the whole region. Except for some areas (like southern MIssouri and probably elsewhere), square dances consist of three changes, and round dances (two-steps, schottisches, polkas, waltzes, rye waltz, varsovienne, etc.) were a regular part of the fiddler's repertoire, and "ethnic" tunes often so as well. Accompaniment instruments that were common to other areas, such as reed organs, pianos, and the fretted instruments, began to be used mostly in the 1880s and 1890s.

Paul GIfford

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/07/2011:  09:45:54

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I really think the way you talk is the way you would naturally play, unless something intervened that caused a conscientious learning of a different fiddle dialect.

Paul Gifford - Posted - 01/07/2011:  10:41:38

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Maybe this isn't the place to do it, but, based on lists of tunes from fiddle contests held around 1900-1920, before there was a chance for tunes to spread through radio or records, as well as other sources, I've thought that one might identify an "Old Southwest" style, roughly taking in the western Ohio RIver (and hinterlands), southern Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Texas. I can't think of all the particular examples at the moment, but this includes such tunes as "Eighth of January." Also, this region in the early 19th century was tied into the rivers that led to New Orleans, and there was a lot of transportation to and from there by fiddlers on flatboats.

I mentioned the "Great Lakes" style, which starts somewhere in New York state (probably like Syracuse-Utica, where the accent starts), takes in northern Pennsylvania, northern (and probably most of) Ohio, northern Indiana, Michigan, much of Iowa, Wisconsin, and the Dakotas) --- it's fuzzy to me about the western part. Bob Walter and some of Christeson's fiddlers belong in here, but one characteristic that Walter seem to have that differs, is the presence of more "Southern" tunes. I think there is one phenomenon---tunes also travel directly northward---meaning that as you get further and further west, things become more mixed up. On the other hand, Christeson included a bunch of _Gems of the Ballroom_ tunes, without knowing what they were. _Gems of the Ballroom_ seems to have been a common source of dance music (for dance musicians) in this region, thanks to Sears & Roebuck selling it.

About European immigrants to rural areas and fiddle music: I find this very interesting. I have found references that German musicians, as early as 1840, were playing for English-speakers (undoubtedly from New York and New England) in Wisconsin. Obviously there were immigrant fiddlers who learned the local dance music immediately after arrival. I have seen a manuscript of dance tunes written by a German immigrant in Au Glaize County, Ohio, in the 1850s, who could barely write English. Many or most tunes looked German (waltzes and schottisches), with German names, but some were cotillion setts (square dance sets) with identifiable tunes. I think Anglo natives, who didn't like waltzing and dancing on Sundays----which the Germans did----gradually accepted waltzes, and Germans and German-Americans learned the local American musical dialect as well. Probably a similar thing happened with Norwegians.

The problem, though, is that in recent years, people look for the exotic. The notes on Wisconsin fiddler Leonard Finseth's LP, which mostly includes (if I recall) Norwegian tunes, call one tune "Irish," because it is in 6/8. This would lead people to think that different groups contributed, like a salad bowl, when in fact the tune was a common "Great Lakes" 6/8 type, an "old-fashioned two-step," not an "Irish" jig. In other words, it was a Norwegian-American fiddler playing a traditional type of tune from the broader region.

bj - Posted - 01/08/2011:  09:44:12

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One thing I've noticed about the Ozark styles, and which seems to migrate strongly into some of the other styles of surrounding areas (like the oldtime Texas style that predates contest and swing fiddling) is the very fast and precise use of sawstroke. Though sawstroke is used in other styles too, it isn't used anywhere near as much and it's rarely used as FAST. I've noticed it with some of the hornpipe fiddlers too.

drdosido - Posted - 01/10/2011:  21:21:03

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I know the honorable Mr. Buckingham prefers the label central states over the term Midwest. But I am a life-long Midwesterner (except for one year in North Carolina, when Charlie "Jake" Corns of Battle Ground, Indiana won the Senior division at Fiddlers Grove (1072). Even more to the point, I'm a died-in-the-wool Hoosier. My family on both sides has lived in Indiana for five generations. Though I've been exiled in Chicago for nearly 25 years, I often take the Skyway across to Whiting and Hammond just so I can sing "Back Home Again in Indiana" like my dad did everytime we crossed the state line on returning from a vacation trip.

Anyway, I learned nearly all my fiddling in Indiana, Michigan and Illinois. I'm also an educated man (a Valparaiso B.A. and an Indiana University M.A. and PhD.), and am widely regarded as a leading Radical Midwesternist. I would characterize Midwestern fiddling in the Anglo traditions as both square and driving. It is not as snaky as some Southern styles, but still goosier than New England fiddling. But ultimately, the major factor in Midwestern fiddling is that the region is a crossroads and many different sounds and styles can be heard in the Midwest.

If you like, you can check out some recordings on my website. From Indiana, there are a number of fiddlers I recorded around 1980: Francis Geels, Harold Zimmerman, Noble Melton, and Lotus Dickey. Also, some southern-born fiddlers who spent most of their adult lives in Indiana: Vic Rigsby, Adlie Hedges and William Bernard Lee (he knew Willie Narmour). From neighboring states: Les Raber, Taylor McBaine, Lloyd Lalumondiere, Tim Stokes, Glenn Abbott, Arlin Dietz. Many more to come.

Here's a page with links to all the artists I've added since the site went live last October.

drdosido.net/dosido.htm#whatsnew

Enjoy.

strokestyle - Posted - 01/15/2011:  13:10:50

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quote:

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One of my favorite fiddlers, Billy Mathews, I have heard refered to as a Midwestern style fiddler. By Dock Jekel

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cornfed - Posted - 01/15/2011:  13:52:36

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You ROCK, Drdosido.

I use the term midwestern fiddler to describe my playing in order to diffuse the arguments about whether or not it's old time or not. All of the older (I guess that's me now) midwestern fiddlers that I heard play, were each an individual study. I would be very hard pressed to identify any playing characteristics that were common to any of them, and that includes repertory.I would guess that all of them liked to play what they called rags, but what they called rags were really different one from the other, except for a certain amount of syncopation that did not normally carry into their other playing. All of them liked to play jigs. Oh yeah...none that I knew ever crosstuned, and I never asked them why, because I never heard of cross tuning until later. All of them are sadly gone now, and I didn't record them, so I guess my recollections could be wrong at this point. They came from Irish (not much like what you hear today which is sligo style), Scots (He was a very profecient fiddler), Norwegian, Hoosier ( I would include most of KY here), New England and central south (Mississippi, Alabama). Anyhow I would guess that whoever it was that said that the midwest is too large an area to characterize with stylistic commonality is absolutely correct. I would say that the material that I heard sounded more like cental Canadian old time than SE US old time. However, it is by no means identical. (and my knowledge of Canadiian old time is limited to a couple of players).For what its worth, I don't think it matters anyway. it's just a convenient label.

OTJunky - Posted - 01/15/2011:  13:58:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Gifford

But, curiously, although many settlers came from (West) Virginia and Kentucky, early accounts (that is, 1800-1860---and I've got several hundred pages) don't mention banjos, This means that whites in the Appalachian area adopted the banjo from slave musicians AFTER most of the migration to Ohio and Indiana and Illinois (1800-1850). Slave musicians, of course, never went to the Midwest (Missouri being an exception; it should probably not be considered "Midwestern" in the same way as the Old Northwest). Black musicians, however, did settle in towns and cities.

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This is a point - the migration of banjo playing - that's of great interest to me.

I think the "conventional wisdom" is that whites in the Appalachian regions adopted the clawhammer style of banjo playing because of the influence of the minstrel shows before the Civil War. And IMO clawhammer banjo playing has had a substantial influence on the evolution of some - but not all - Appalachian fiddle styles since then.

Of course, there're more ways to play the banjo than clawhammer style. When I went up to the Ozark regions in the mid 70's I didn't see or hear any native clawhammer players - though there were a few young "revivalists". And to my ear Ozark fiddling didn't then show much influence from clawhammer banjo playing - one of its charms I think. There were banjo players, but they played a two finger style. Grandpa Jones was a native of that area and played the older frailing style though I don't know whether he picked it up in the Ozarks or later on when he became involved with the Grand Ole Opry.

And when I ranged into Missouri and Texas in those days there were no banjo players at all - except for Bluegrass banjo players. Bluegrass banjo players were extended a tentative, and uneasy welcome to the Missouri old time fiddling jam sessions and conventions in those days. Maybe "tolerated" is a better word though they rarely showed up at the old time fiddle jam sessions because Bluegrass is really an altogether different kind of music. You could usually encounter a claven or two of Bluegrass musicians at any old time fiddlers convention though. After all even Lyman Enloe and Byron Berline branched off into Bluegrass fiddling.

But I don't think I ever saw any mixing of Bluegrass and Old Time fiddling in Texas - either at jam sessions or at the Texas fiddle contests - the Texas equivalent of an old time fiddlers convention.

It'd be nice if M-D or somebody else with a passing acquaintence with traditional music in the Ozark regions would chime in here and give us his perspective on the older banjo styles played there.

It's probably worth mentioning that neither Fate Norris (banjo player with the Skillet Lickers) nor Charlie Poole played banjo in a clawhammer style so I think clawhammer banjo playing doesn't have quite as broad a range in old time music as many people think.

--OTJ

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Edited by - OTJunky on 01/15/2011 14:05:41

sltinerella - Posted - 01/15/2011:  17:58:36

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quote:

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Originally posted by VivianW

A good place to start for listening to Midwestern fiddlers (Indiana & Illinois) is at drdosido.net/

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Wow. Dr. Dosido was my first fiddle teacher. Awesome. He is quite the resource for learning about fiddle styling and history. I don't know if he is still in the Volo Bogtrotters, but they are typical Midwestern. Lynn "Chirps" Smith is one that Dr. Dosido would offer refer to.

Paul Gifford - Posted - 01/17/2011:  07:12:02

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OTJunky wrote

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I think the "conventional wisdom" is that whites in the Appalachian regions adopted the clawhammer style of banjo playing because of the influence of the minstrel shows before the Civil War. And IMO clawhammer banjo playing has had a substantial influence on the evolution of some - but not all - Appalachian fiddle styles since then

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I think a better argument can be made that they got it from slave musicians. See this quote from George Gibson's site, banjohistory.com/article/detai...alachians:

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Charles Doe visited Danville, Virginia, near the North Carolina border, in 1850. Following are his observations in a letter dated Feb. 22, 1850 (Archives and Manuscripts, Accession # 38743, Library of Virginia):

"Their [blacks] national instrument is the banjo; some of them play on the violin. The whites play the banjo a great deal, at least as much as northerners do the flute. But the flute is hardly known here."

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So there was a fashion, in Piedmont Virginia in 1850, for whites to play the banjo. Then there is lots of evidence from later in the century to show its popularity in the Appalachian area, from West Virginia to Georgia, among whites. They made them, tanning ground hog hides, etc. That is a strong argument, in my opinion, to show that they got the instrument and traditions from blacks directly, rather than through minstrel shows.

References to banjos north of the Ohio River are scarce to non-existent in descriptions from the early 19th century. One guy, who came to Ohio in 1838, played it and several other instruments. Perhaps a very small number of whites did. However, there are records of blacks playing fiddle and tambourine, triangle, etc. in this period. I have a description of a veteran of minstrel shows playing banjo with a fiddler for dances near Detroit about 1870. So perhaps in the North, starting around the Civil War, whites started playing it through influences from minstrel shows. Then it enjoyed a lot of popularity from the 1880s into the 1910s. In my experience (Michigan), the tenor banjo completely ousted the 5-string around 1920. I think the popularity or the two-step and foxtrot was the reason.

Migration to the Ozarks started roughly after 1830, and the Piedmont-Appalachian banjo popularity perhaps didn't really get going until the 1850s-1870s, so this would be consistent with what I proposed. But there was slavery in Missouri, so there could have been some direct transfer to whites there.

drdosido - Posted - 01/19/2011:  22:25:23

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Of related interest, a new post on my blog on my "Search for German Old-Time Music."
drdosido.net/drdsblog/

Paul Gifford - Posted - 01/20/2011:  07:40:19

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Paul TYler wrote :

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Of related interest, a new post on my blog on my "Search for German Old-Time Music."

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Interesting post. Maybe the fiddling and square dancing in your area is typical of other heavily German areas that were settled in the period from the 1840s or earlier until the CIvil War or so.

I've heard button accordion players from northern Wisconsin who seem to play a very German repertoire, without any fiddle tunes (basically one polka or waltz after another). I'm thinking of one guy in particular, who lived in a Detroit suburb but was from around Green Bay. I wonder if the settlement in the neighborhood where he grew up was later, say 1880s.

The other interesting thing I noticed was your mention of square dancing at weddings. I interviewed a WIsconsin German-American whose family used fiddle, dulcimer, and accordion, playing square dance music, and he said they typically played at weddings. With Anglo-Americans you don't associate much square dancing with weddings. I've thought that this could be one German characteristic.

There was a "concertina club" active in southwestern Michigan in the '70s. I never went and I don't know much about it. The guy I knew that went played a button accordion and was Anglo-American. I don't know if they were Chemnitzer players or what. Seems to me it met also in Indiana.

DougD - Posted - 01/20/2011:  08:23:55

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There's a surprising number of concertina clubs still active: concertinamusic.com/concertina-clubs/

There used to be a Polish fellow from Chicago who brought stuff to auctions around here, but a lot of the items (estates really I guess) were from Wisconsin. I bought some violins over the years, but also several Chemnitzer concertinas, because no one else was interested. The last one I bought mostly because there was a picture of a club pasted inside the top of the case - probably from the 1920's or so. Reminded me a little of the Irish musicians on the cover of the "Wheels of the World" albums.